Part P training . It must be stopped

[Gary Soulsby]

As most of you are aware part p was introduced in 2005. This has lead to a huge surge in people becoming part p registered installers. This is not the issue although anyone who works on electrical installations should have "sufficient" knowledge and training as to minimise risk.

The approved appretiship does this as anyone wanting to become qualified has to obtain level 2&3 technical cert and level 3 NVQ as well as sit the AM2 test.

Currently company's are offering training to become an approved domestic installer in 5 DAYS!!
That isn't even enough time to get someone entirely used to useing the regs book never mind classified as "competent"

In the end of the day these people are taking the easy option, of which I understand but that should not come at the price of safety and the loss of work of approved electricians that have spent 3-5 years training.

Find attacked the link to a petition stop the training of these under qualified "electricians"

Petition: Scrap Part P, someone with 5 days experience is not safe to work on electrics - https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207481/sponsors/new?token=xUnMdAVdRq7xSzVHb68h

 

[Octopus]

The "gravy" train left the station a long time ago and nothing will stop it now.

The problem, as I see it, isn't Part P .................its the total absence of anyone or anybody actually doing anything to uphold standards AND holding people accountable for dodgy work ........... whether it be electrics or any other trade...

 

[The Ghost]

Your telling me 23day

Are you sure you are quoting the right person? How did you divine I said that to you? I am not telling you anything I asked you a question or two. Try re-reading what you just quoted.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Are you sure you are quoting the right person? How did you divine I said that to you? I am not telling you anything I asked you a question or two. Try re-reading what you just quoted.

NICEIC actually does have a certified scheme for someone with these qualifications . Theoretically you can do 23 days total training then set up your own company doing work in people's houses on your own. Any electrician should find this desturbing that people's houses where there family sleep could have potentially been wired and certified by someone who didn't have a clue less than a month ago.

I personally think it's wrong and anyone who works on electrical installations should as I said have sufficient knowledge as to prevent risk. Admitidly domestic is not rocket science but the slightest mistake can have drastic consiquences .

Electricians are paid for what they know not what they do

 

[The Ghost]

You still have not answered my question. I often cite the 18 year old who has finished a three year course and does not have a clue how to even wire up a socket properly. Courses do not an electrician make! Experience allied with the knowledge gleaned on courses make an electrician. Experience being the key to a good rounded electrician. Courses can only teach so much. For instance on testing and inspection and commissioning; You can learn text book testing pass your practical and go out into the real world. You may get for instance on an RFC test 0.5 0/0.5 r1 rn then 5 ohms on r2. What are you to make of this??? A course will not teach this, anomalous results are the acid test of an electrician and how it is dealt with and understood. Getting rid of Part P will in no way even begin to deal with this aspect of training. What the answer is I don't know and I am sure the person who thinks of it will be rich.

 

[Toneyz]

What does the C & G 2393-10 teach you?

 

[Pete999]

What does the C & G 2393-10 teach you?

After a day you become a "Part P Installer" da da that is after they have spent a day telling you something you should know already, after spending £180 of your hard earned, so you get there at 08:30 chat till 10:00 10:30 TILL 13:00 Lunch till 14:00 till 15:30 for tea finish say at 17:00, money for old rope in my book.

 

[Gary Soulsby]

Part P Electrical Course for Electrical Installation - https://www.electricianacademy.co.uk/partp-electrical-course

Advertising that Part P can work on shops and pubs .

 

[Octopus]

Advertising that Part P can work on shops and pubs .

The reality is that there is absolutely nothing stopping any tom, dick or abdul doing any form of building work ............. let alone sparking

 

[Stspark]

The petition should be against the schemes (niceic, napit, stroma) for giving accreditation for the title 'domestic installer' and in doing so creating a market for short courses from various training providers (who are no doubt linked to the schemes themselves!).
Ultimately nothing will change, until we electricians stop paying the annual fee's to the schemes.

 

[Des 56]

I think the petitions era has passed,nobody will give two monkeys about any petition,if a select committee can be ignored and dismissed with ease,what chance a petition


Now,my wish list

Abolish that part P registered nonsense ,no more worries about the Part P qualified this and that

Open up all domestic installation work unrestricted to whoever believes they can do that work
(It does not really require a full blown electrician to work on domestic wiring,a decent head and pair of hands and its well within most peoples capability)

The government could make compulsory an inspection report for all new build and house sales like they were intending

We could campaign to get a register of electricians who can do these reports,possibly on behalf of a Government agency which has set fees for these inspections

Heres to dreaming I suppose

 

[Midwest]

After a day you become a "Part P Installer" da da that is after they have spent a day telling you something you should know already, after spending £180 of your hard earned, so you get there at 08:30 chat till 10:00 10:30 TILL 13:00 Lunch till 14:00 till 15:30 for tea finish say at 17:00, money for old rope in my book.

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

 

[Pete999]

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

Part P City & Guilds 2393 1 Day Course - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/part-p-2393

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I know several people who have gone down the supposed Electrical Trainee route, one is a former finance broker in the city and lost nearly everything in 2008 when it all went belly up. He did a group of courses in 2010 with one of these training providers and is a DI with NICEIC
He knows his limitations, but having worked with him he is methodical, safety conscious, sits down and does his calculations for voltage drop and cable loads etc.. His work is of a very high and good standard.
Another person is a fellow ex serviceman who after having some mental health difficulties after Iraq. Struggled and had his DI training paid for with one of the training warehouses, he was a helicopter technician in the forces and again his work on electrics is excellent, he is very good at testing and inspecting and methodical and safe in finding faults.
Both of these guys I would sooner have working on my own home or my families than supposed time served apprentices or people with all the paper but no brain cells. Neither could go down the apprenticeship and 3 years of training route, Both know their limitations and work safely within it keeping them and customers safe.
Qualifications in themselves mean nothing, experience helps, but there are many competent DI's out there with little proper experience who i would sooner see working than so called qualified electricians doing poor and unsafe work.
Part P in itself is well intended but a part p building regs course alone wont get you in one of the schemes , we joke about how easy it is, but if you speak to the regional assessors they do refuse quite a few applications to the schemes. Its just nobody ever admits to it and carry on doing jobs regardless!!
Overall its made the industry safer! as the Electrical Trainee's are at least supervised even if minimally and that is better than somebody doing whatever with no oversight. Yes, you get some working beyond their skills and ability but these are far out weighed by the people doing things according to regs safely and appropriately.
I think anybody paying around 3k for a group of courses plus more for testing kit and tools to enter the industry as a DI doesnt do it lightly, thats quite an outlay for somebody to be a cowboy or somebody who doesn't care about their work and safety.

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Actually they are quite intense. The problem is that there’s no proper evaluation of skills learnt (or not).

I could equally come back with apprenticeships basically being 1 year of getting the tea and tartan paint and two years doing the donkey work, whilst learning a bit.

Neither my description, or yours is accurate.

It’s all down to the (ironically) the testing of the course member imho. They let anyone “pass”.

Your telling me 23days is sufficient to be able to sign off there own work in a domestic premises ?

Domestic Electrical Installer TS4U-25: Silver - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/domestic-electrician-installer-ts4u25

After a day you become a "Part P Installer" da da that is after they have spent a day telling you something you should know already, after spending £180 of your hard earned, so you get there at 08:30 chat till 10:00 10:30 TILL 13:00 Lunch till 14:00 till 15:30 for tea finish say at 17:00, money for old rope in my book.

 

[cprfenom]

In fairness they do not let everyone pass. I agree with @Spoon that its being miss sold.

Knowing your own limitations and knowing when to admit you dont know something is key

Experience is everything!

 

[ipf]

Actually they are quite intense. The problem is that there’s no proper evaluation of skills learnt (or not).

I could equally come back with apprenticeships basically being 1 year of getting the tea and tartan paint and two years doing the donkey work, whilst learning a bit.

Hey! Even if I did plenty donkey work, I was wiping lead joints in my first year.......From what you say you'd think I could barely wipe my ar....

 

[ipf]

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

Refund refused. Reason. Cheek for enrolling!

 

[Midwest]

Part P Electrical Course for Electrical Installation - https://www.electricianacademy.co.uk/partp-electrical-course

Advertising that Part P can work on shops and pubs .

That particular one is misleading.

 

[Midwest]

Part P City & Guilds 2393 1 Day Course - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/part-p-2393

Yep that's a 2393-10.

 

[Toneyz]

It don't Pete. I did a 2393-10, I could of just read the book. A guy on my 1 day course thought it would give him the ability to notify without being in a scheme. Our trainer told him to go downstairs to the training establishment admin dept and get a refund.

Midwest as by what you have posted that you have been on this 2393-10 (Part P) course as I have no experience of this what was taught and over how many days.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

I have done a building regs course that covers the fabled part p. My last firm sent us on it. The only bit i found interesting was the bit on ventilation for building control compliance. It got us to work out flow rate requirements for extractors. Beyond that its nothing any of us didnt know. The test was a multi choice with your green osg. There were a couple of the wet behind the ear sort but they new their limits and spoke about knowing the reality. I dont think any of them saw themselves as anything other than a knowledgable diyer or handyman

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

@ipf Did you miss the “neither description is accurate”? Bit?

 

[Midwest]

Midwest as by what you have posted that you have been on this 2393-10 (Part P) course as I have no experience of this what was taught and over how many days.

Mine was a days course that I tagged onto an initial inspection & testing. As the initial required me to stay over, thought I might use the last day of the week, for some more input. The training was good and informative, but I probably could of learnt the same by just reading 'the electricians guide to the building reg'. That said the trainer went into a bit more detail, answered questions, and I was able to talk to other, perhaps more experienced electricians. So not all was lost. There's a multi choice exam at the end.

As said, there was one guy who thought the C&G qualification, entitled him to 'notify' without being in a scheme or paying BC heaps of money (I know some on here suggest you can, if you can convince your BC). He was told what the course content was, and it wasn't going to achieve what he was after. He left before things got going, the trainer told him to seek a refund, if he felt he had been misinformed.

It was with Trade Skills 4U (forum sponsor), the one Pete linked too. As I said there was some discussion & questions (which is not a bad thing IMO), but not to the timetable Pate suggested. I didn't pay £180, can't remember my how much I did.

Hard to say if I would recommend it, for someone strapped for cash, probably not.

 

[Spoon]

Sounds like you are against courses that are not telling

...It was with Trade Skills 4U (forum sponsor), the one Pete linked too. As I said there was some discussion & questions (which is not a bad thing IMO), but not to the timetable Pate suggested. I didn't pay £180, can't remember my how much I did.

Hard to say if I would recommend it, for someone strapped for cash, probably not.

Are you just being polite, as they are forum sponsors??
I'd be truthful and say it as it is. If they are a good organisation they will appreciate some constructive feedback... If not, they will whinge like a baby and complain.

 

[Midwest]

Sounds like you are against courses that are not telling


Are you just being polite, as they are forum sponsors??
I'd be truthful and say it as it is. If they are a good organisation they will appreciate some constructive feedback... If not, they will whinge like a baby and complain.

Nope, just making a point that they are forum sponsors, and before someone suggest I'm advertising for a outside company, and bubbles me to the mods!

I might not be 100% behind the 2393-10, but my 2392-10 was a very good course with an excellent trainer, and the facilities are also very good. I would recommend TradeSkills 4U. How about that for shameful advertising

 

[GeorgeCooke]

There is no such thing as a "part P registered installer". The only 'Part P requirements' are that all the work is carried out safely (and this can be satisfied by working to BS7671) and that the work is notified, if this is notifiable work.

 

[sevuk]

I think it's important for practising tradesmen who must undertake electrical modifications and are responsible for part of the installation work (plumbers and kitchen fitters), to get briefed on current laws and regulations. This would be in the form of Part P and BS7671 short courses.

Some of the stuff relevant to them is quite easy to find, like Appendix 15 ring final circuits can't incorporate equipment with more than a 2kw load (immersion heaters and cookers etc).

It should supplement their work, not train them to do it.

Plenty of plumbers have had to deal with circuit diagrams to make a central heating system work, and they don't need to know much about the big picture, they just need to know the bits that are relevant to what their work already entails.

I think ticket culture is to blame, as it's not the original purpose of the courses to make someone an electrician in a week.

 

[GeorgeCooke]

Some of the stuff relevant to them is quite easy to find, like Appendix 15 ring final circuits can't incorporate equipment with more than a 2kw load (immersion heaters and cookers etc).

You have written that as if it is a reg. It is not. Advisory only. Let's face it most kettles and some heaters are more than 2kW.

 

[sevuk]

Regulation 433.1.204

"The load current in any part of the circuit should unlikely to exceed for long periods the current-carrying capacity of the cable."

And then it goes on to list the suggestions of how this may be achieved. Which is where I get the 2kw from.

Kettles don't go on for long periods, and if the 20A oven isn't on the circuit there's no problem with a portable heater. What we want to avoid is having too many high profile current using equipment on one side of the ring.

All this can be briefly covered in a course for practicing tradesmen which outline the regs and explain the reasoning. In this case a bit of thought can provoked in terms of ring design as an example.

My point is these people don't need 3-5 years of electrical training when they are only concerned with a limited scope.

Though I can see why in the real world, why sometimes we'd rather they didn't touch it.

 

[Pete999]

Regulation 433.1.204

"The load current in any part of the circuit should unlikely to exceed for long periods the current-carrying capacity of the cable."

And then it goes on to list the suggestions of how this may be achieved. Which is where I get the 2kw from.

Kettles don't go on for long periods, and if the 20A oven isn't on the circuit there's no problem with a portable heater. What we want to avoid is having too many high profile current using equipment on one side of the ring.

All this can be briefly covered in a course for practicing tradesmen which outline the regs and explain the reasoning. In this case a bit of thought can provoked in terms of ring design as an example.

My point is these people don't need 3-5 years of electrical training when they are only concerned with a limited scope.

Though I can see why in the real world, why sometimes we'd rather they didn't touch it.

I believe the regulation says something along the lines of "to avoid overuse of heavy current use on a RFC, one of the ways of achieving this, would be to install anything over 2 KW on a separate circuit, doesn't actually say don't do it, like George says "it's an advisory"