skill been taken out the trade?

[liamnewbury]

Does anyone else feel that alot of skill has been taken out of our trade, things are becoming easier and easier to do. The days of using metal conduit and single in houses is long gone. If the standards were alot higher would we be worth more money and would there be less rogue traders about?

opinions please

 

[baldsparkies]

No the skill has not been taken out the trade - It's just not regulated .DIY programmes don't help -
Ask the average house basher ( excluding proper sparkies I hasten to add ) about volt drop . earth loops and correction factors and he won't have a clue

Here,here, Bugsy.
Its all about what kind of electrical work you have covered in your working life as a sparks. I have been fortunate enough to have run large electrical contracts working to specifications and drawings along with meetings with electrical consultants, Quants surveyors, architects and the like although you are into an entirely different ball game. Composit panels as opposed to a simple consumer units. Lighting control equipment, power factor correction, submains supplies and 3 phase control panels for mechanical heating and vent, Fire alarm systems that need to interact with other services, the list is endless. But its all about how far you need to go in your trade. A good domestic electrician who has never worked on anything else is still a good electrician, so we are back to competance and my comments in an earlier post. Thats the plus about our trade, variety and a learning curve that is with you throughout. I am 56 started my apprentiship at 18 and still learning. If you want a thorn in the side of the trade, then look no further than part P. Its created an absolute shambles in the domestic world and thats not just my opinion .

 

[gaffer]

Gaffer,

Apologies if this seems like nit-picking but I've always thought crimping MICC is a bit of a no-no. Best bet I would have thought is connector block. I've worked with a mob that had this as a one of the questions in their trrade test and it has caught a lot of lads out. I think crimping any solid cores is a non-starter although I'm willing to be corrected.

Cheers,

Cueball

Sorry if you feel like you are nit picking,I always welcome any input from others.I think the down side is maybe the risk of damage from heat to insulated crimps.Dont know of any problems crimping on solid cores?

 

[lee sandland]

hi ,ive just started a so called quick course and having reading a lot of post on this site there is alot of negatived about people trying to change there lives and better themselfs with a new career.
I was in the exhibition & shopfitting trade for 12 years and employed 20 labourers working all over uk and europe ,but when thay close the coal mines the miners came in cheaper(don't blame them thay needed work) and it was just me and my van.So i had to change my career and trained as a chef at the age of 30 and had the same type of comments then ,now at 42 trying to move on and you get the same negatived ,Sorry but times have changed and people don't do the same job for 40 years or more.
To me has long there are regs to control cowboys your jobs well be safe.
thanks lee

 

[baldsparkies]

To me has long there are regs to control cowboys your jobs well be safe.
thanks lee

Its a nice thought Lee, but regs to control cowboys There's no such thing.
Since when as a cowboy taken any notice of regulations??.

 

[Jason Smith]

The average house basher- i come from an intensive course and I was trained in volt drop and correction factors, I am going to assume you are really not sufficiently informed to make comment.
Please confine your comments to persons not properly qualified. You cannot blanket every person and every course.

 

[lee sandland]

Its a nice thought Lee, but regs to control cowboys There's no such thing.
Since when as a cowboy taken any notice of regulations??.

Thanks ,but my point was that poeple doing these quick courses was not good enough to be a eletrician or join your trade when all i (or we) do is study and work and pay alot of money for it ,it's not just for the money it's for our future and a new skill .
and there are always chancers in any trade ,but the new laws coming in in 2015 should stop the cowboys
many thanks lee

 

[gazzamikes]

I think that the colleges etc should teach more of the support systems such as tray and steel conduit. I'm a maintenance engeer, without the skills I've gained over five years of engineering training trying to do metallic support systems would have been very difficult. I completed the2330 last summer and in our group was a posty, never used a hacksaw or benders in his life, he struggled in his practical exam for 6 hours and gave up. More training needs to be given

 

[lee sandland]

I think that the colleges etc should teach more of the support systems such as tray and steel conduit. I'm a maintenance engeer, without the skills I've gained over five years of engineering training trying to do metallic support systems would have been very difficult. I completed the2330 last summer and in our group was a posty, never used a hacksaw or benders in his life, he struggled in his practical exam for 6 hours and gave up. More training needs to be given

It's like all trades if you want do something you put in the effort and try to learn moor .it took me 5 years at collage to learn my ex trade and 7 years still learning it

 

[MarcT]

Not so long ago, electricians were regarded as electrical craftsmen, and the path was more linear. If it was electrical in nature then you could turn your hand to it and add another string to your bow. Since then ,the trade has become more diverse and lateral in it's progression. You may no longer be judged by your ability to do something , and be judged only on what you have done before, especially in what has become a buyers market.
When these intensive courses came out, I was very dubious, not because I thought my achievements would be usurped, but because I thought the course providers were out for a quick buck. The training now costs a fraction, and has to be completed in a fraction of the time. However, if this is the only way into the trade now, and it's producing competent people then good for them. To be able to retain so much information and pass the exams in such a short time is really quite something, and to those who pass, it shows a dedication. I'm not aware of all the reasons for disliking these courses, but one might be grieving for the passing of a traditional rite of passage, which looks irrevocably destined to history. If there is one single thing that is cheapening our craft, it's not the new induction structure, it's GREED! Builders who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Who do their own electrics because they think you're ripping them off. Who employ cheap lawless foreign labour only to charge top whack for it anyway. Contractors who have one decent QS on the books who shows the inspector round their 'best' jobs while the rest of the mob fling some atrocity in down the round, but don't worry, they can always send an 'improver' round afterwards. WTF is an 'improver‘.? Why didn't you do the damn job properly the first ******* time?

Anyway, I've slid off topic a bit here, and starting to feel like Jessica Fletcher!
back on topic, It doesn't matter where you passed your exams now, it's the knowledge and experience you gain, retain and share with others that makes you. It's all one big learning arc anyway.

 

[lee sandland]

Not so long ago, electricians were regarded as electrical craftsmen, and the path was more linear. If it was electrical in nature then you could turn your hand to it and add another string to your bow. Since then ,the trade has become more diverse and lateral in it's progression. You may no longer be judged by your ability to do something , and be judged only on what you have done before, especially in what has become a buyers market.
When these intensive courses came out, I was very dubious, not because I thought my achievements would be usurped, but because I thought the course providers were out for a quick buck. The training now costs a fraction, and has to be completed in a fraction of the time. However, if this is the only way into the trade now, and it's producing competent people then good for them. To be able to retain so much information and pass the exams in such a short time is really quite something, and to those who pass, it shows a dedication. I'm not aware of all the reasons for disliking these courses, but one might be grieving for the passing of a traditional rite of passage, which looks irrevocably destined to history. If there is one single thing that is cheapening our craft, it's not the new induction structure, it's GREED! Builders who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Who do their own electrics because they think you're ripping them off. Who employ cheap lawless foreign labour only to charge top whack for it anyway. Contractors who have one decent QS on the books who shows the inspector round their 'best' jobs while the rest of the mob fling some atrocity in down the round, but don't worry, they can always send an 'improver' round afterwards. WTF is an 'improver‘.? Why didn't you do the damn job properly the first ******* time?

Anyway, I've slid off topic a bit here, and starting to feel like Jessica Fletcher!
back on topic, It doesn't matter where you passed your exams now, it's the knowledge and experience you gain, retain and share with others that makes you. It's all one big learning arc anyway.

well i agree with everything you say( miss fletcher lol)life is full of learning and in all trades there are con artists and foreign labour is bring this country to it's knees

 

[Jason Smith]

oi, lee, you should have your head in the books !!- Hows the studying coming on ?

 

[baldsparkies]

Around four years ago, I was working for a company that required our services rectifying cable install faults along with panel re wiring on new installations around the country. The original electricians had come from europe and had difficulty understanding the wiring specs which were in english. This was for a well known retail chain. Circuits were incorrectly marked, and the panel lighting control for third and full lighting was all messed up. It was to much trouble to call back the original installers, and worked out cheaper and less complicated to get us to sort it out. I am not pointing fingers just stating a factual situation that I witnessed and was involved in. It does make you form opinions though, so much for going for the cheapest tender.

 

[lee sandland]

oi, lee, you should have your head in the books !!- Hows the studying coming on ?

been at it all day so its time for a beer and plus you can learn alot on here just reading the post ,had some good advice from chris(acat)
thanks lee all the way from skegvagas

 

[norwood61]

I don't think that it's just the electrical profession which has suffered with a 'dumbing down' of professional skills. This seems to affect practically all areas of our society. I believe this starts at the academic level. We regularly see every year how students these days gaining A's and B's in four, five or six A levels and the chances of failing a degree are virtually nil. I was asked recently to help an undergraduate complete a history essay, which would contribute to her final grade. On reading it I was astounded at the bad English and complete misunderstanding of the topic in question. I had to advise her that with work such as this she would not succeed. She got a 2/1!!! I think the teaching profession has under pressure from central government had to make qualifications so easy, to meet targets, which basically means there are a lot of people walking around out there with qualifications that, twenty years ago they would have not achieved. This translates into trade qualifications as well, and it must be a concern to many experienced electricians who see young people with so called qualifications, yet who do not have the skill set that these imply.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I trained originally as an electro-mechanical engineer with the Army, only just retired on completion of 22. When I started the policy was repair by repair and failing that replace the broken bit. By the time I retired it was simply lump changing dumbing down skilled tradesmen to simple fitters. It is happening everywhere as technology advances making jobs easier from the bolt together system...

 

[jase]

So, Let me see if I understand this discussion.
You are saying that because I have signed up to a course provider, which is not a local colledge, doing evening classes, nor do they provide an 'apprenticeship' (I'm 45 years old, so that would be out of the question) that upon completion of my course, which is all C&G certified, that I will be a 'ROUGE TRADER' incapable of installing anyting correctly or safely?
I trained as an electrician in the Royal Navy (Although we were called Weapons Engineer Mechanics then) and after serving my time, I came into the public sector but decided thst I wanted to do other things, Apparhently I was not qualified to be a 'real electrican' anyway,
I now have the opportunity to get back into the trade, and the only way i can achieve this is through one of the (so called Con-artist) training courses, I have a family to support and mortgage to pay the same as you guys so full time education is not an option. When I finish the course I will be qualified to a good standard and I know that experience is everything but with people like you around the experience can never be gained or if we set up on our own we are the lowest of the low con-artists and Rougue Traders. I know that these people are out there ripping the public off , but please don't tar everybody with the same brush, give some of us a bit of credit for the fact that we are capable and want to do a safe and efficient job in whichever sector of the industry we decide to work in.

Sorry if this offends anyone but to be frank, I'm offended by the attitude of some members of this forum.

I think they were talking about the defined scope part of part p, by which a kitchen fitter or plumber can go on a 4 day course to learn how to wire a socket or fuse spur and then they somehowthink that "being part p" gives them free reign to tackle any electrical work

 

[1shortcircuit]

These threads make me chuckle.

That's all I'm going to say on this matter though because the last time I spoke my opinion it upset a PROPER ELECTRICIAN and ended up in him getting banned

 

[pmac10]

I trained originally as an electro-mechanical engineer with the Army, only just retired on completion of 22. When I started the policy was repair by repair and failing that replace the broken bit. By the time I retired it was simply lump changing dumbing down skilled tradesmen to simple fitters. It is happening everywhere as technology advances making jobs easier from the bolt together system...

had a similar experience in raf, as an aero fitter, repair it/make it /fit it (to aero standard obviously) or replace it in that order, when i left it was pretty much just replace it. this dawned on some clever bloke one day and they devised extra training to be designed for experienced eng techs to make sure they 'still had it', was called skill fade so i reckon in that respect i agree with the people who say this is a common factor in all trades, however in my current role in a factory where im employed in an electrically biased role(but expected to do both) we are constantly needing to upskill to maintain new machinery, very similar to what silva foxx posted earlier