Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

[JosephandAmber]

Agent contacts me with an urgent request for a CU upgrade in Camden. They send over an EICR done the previous month and I have a quick skim. All seems pretty simple, CU needs an upgrade and some basic tidying of fixtures etc. Only 3 circuits so I'm not overly bothered about doing another EICR prior to doing the CU replacement.

Turn up to the property and within 10 mins I note there is no visible MET, nor is there any visible earth supply coming from the head. So I head inside and run some tests, again no earth. So I knock on the basement property and ask to test their installation, again no earth. Ok, so by this point I'm baffled by the lack of a main earth. So I called UKPN who send an engineer and he confirmed my fears, the property has never had an earth supply nor will they add one. As a result, he then issues all 4 flats with a Sec 26 ESQCR notice and turns off power to the entire building.

As you can imagine with 4 privately rented flats each with their own agents and landlords it kicks off. Turns out 2 of the 4 flats had EICRs completed within the past 3 months. One had a new CU installed. The property HAS NO EARTH!

Both EICRs were issued by NICEIC approved installers. Readings were recorded that could not have physically been taken. What is going on!?

 

[loz2754]

Fraud. Shocking how they get away with it.

 

[timhoward]

If they have been stupid enough to make up fake Ze readings, and they are legit CPS approved sparks, then I'd be writing a letter of complaint to the CPS. If you have the EICRs the contractors can be checked for membership online.
With UKPN's involvement it's an inarguable situation.
It makes my blood boil when people ostensibly vetted to the same level as me do things like this.

 

[JosephandAmber]

If they have been stupid enough to make up fake Ze readings, and they are legit CPS approved sparks, then I'd be writing a letter of complaint to the CPS. If you have the EICRs the contractors can be checked for membership online.
With UKPN's involvement it's an inarguable situation.
It makes my blood boil when people ostensibly vetted to the same level as me do things like this.

So I've just sent off a complaint to the NICEIC (they are listed as a domestic installer) concerning the EICR that was issued for the property I was working on. I've attached the EICR (Ze included) they issued and the UKPN notification that the property has no earth. I will update you when I get a response.

I am in the process of getting the details for the other property.

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

 

[Mike Johnson]

What is preventing you making the system TT and allow the electricity to be turned back on for the benefit of the renters? It's what has to happen in the end anyway.

 

[JosephandAmber]

TT is exactly what they need to do, only I'm not getting involved as the politics of dealing with 4 landlords is too much faff for me.

 

[catdog1121]

Wow I hope those guys get chucked out of the cps but bet nothing happens, prob NICEIC will just say you need to complain direct to the contractors first, completely missing the point..

Bet you were popular when all the power got turned off..

 

[timhoward]

What is preventing you making the system TT and allow the electricity to be turned back on for the benefit of the renters? It's what has to happen in the end anyway.

Providing TT to flats can be a real pain. I would have expected UKPN to try and flog PME .

TT is exactly what they need to do, only I'm not getting involved as the politics of dealing with 4 landlords is too much faff for me.

Would you not at least sort the one you were originally changing a CU for?

 

[Mike Johnson]

TT is exactly what they need to do, only I'm not getting involved as the politics of dealing with 4 landlords is too much faff for me.

Only the same as dealing with four clients, and let's not forget getting paid four times.

Just looked up the Sec 26 Notice:

Who does the Esqcr Regulations 2002 apply to?
—(1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

Did you take a reading off the incoming sheath?

 

[cliffed]

Agent contacts me with an urgent request for a CU upgrade in Camden. They send over an EICR done the previous month and I have a quick skim. All seems pretty simple, CU needs an upgrade and some basic tidying of fixtures etc. Only 3 circuits so I'm not overly bothered about doing another EICR prior to doing the CU replacement.

Turn up to the property and within 10 mins I note there is no visible MET, nor is there any visible earth supply coming from the head. So I head inside and run some tests, again no earth. So I knock on the basement property and ask to test their installation, again no earth. Ok, so by this point I'm baffled by the lack of a main earth. So I called UKPN who send an engineer and he confirmed my fears, the property has never had an earth supply nor will they add one. As a result, he then issues all 4 flats with a Sec 26 ESQCR notice and turns off power to the entire building.

As you can imagine with 4 privately rented flats each with their own agents and landlords it kicks off. Turns out 2 of the 4 flats had EICRs completed within the past 3 months. One had a new CU installed. The property HAS NO EARTH!

Both EICRs were issued by NICEIC approved installers. Readings were recorded that could not have physically been taken. What is going on!?

That’s awful

 

[Dustydazzler]

Drive by EICR s

Easiest grand a day you will ever make

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It seems a bit of overkill to me, switching off the power to the whole building without notice, for a fault that has probably been there for decades. On the few occasions that I, or my clients, have reported defective earths, the DNO has been much more 'relaxed' in their response to it, usually dealing with it in a matter of weeks rather than days.

Were there any parallel paths via bonding etc?

 

[snowhead]

Drive by EICR s

Easiest grand a day you will ever make

So, we'll bring out Part P, that'll guarantee ALL installers are suitably qualified and the quality of installations improves over the subsequent years,,, FAIL

Next we'll bring out mandatory EICRs for Tennanted properties (possibly eventually leading to all properties just to make sure Part P is actually working) to absolutely guarantee that those properties are safe,, ANOTHER BIG FAIL.

What's next on the list, compulsory ENGTECH just make sure that EICRs are checking that Part P is working.??

 

[Dustydazzler]

It seems a bit of overkill to me, switching off the power to the whole building without notice, for a fault that has probably been there for decades. On the few occasions that I, or my clients, have reported defective earths, the DNO has been much more 'relaxed' in their response to it, usually dealing with it in a matter of weeks rather than days.

Were there any parallel paths via bonding etc?

I once waited 2 months for the DNO to come and sort out some old council flats that had no main earth to them.
These flats had been without any main earth for decades. The only bit of earth they were getting was from a bit of old 4mm twisted round the water pipe

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Now this will be an interesting thread to have updated @JosephandAmber
Do keep us posted. As soon as you get any updates you need to stop whatever you are doing, log on and update

 

[Dustydazzler]

So, we'll bring out Part P, that'll guarantee ALL installers are suitably qualified and the quality of installations improves over the subsequent years,,, FAIL

Next we'll bring out mandatory EICRs for Tennanted properties (possibly eventually leading to all properties just to make sure Part P is actually working) to absolutely guarantee that those properties are safe,, ANOTHER BIG FAIL.

What's next on the list, compulsory ENGTECH just make sure that EICRs are checking that Part P is working.??

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Part Pee is not working , the amount of dog Sh!t work I rectify that has been done by scam registered sparks pretty much keeps me in business these days.
Most recent a brand new kitchen wired up by a scam registered sparks , all nice new chrome switches and sockets. The lighting circuit has no cpc as it old and wired in twin yet they fitted 3 new chrome switches. several sockets the cables were all loose, and the cooker was connected with 15amp connector block in 1.5mm cable all thrown under the units. NICE

Old 3036 rewirable fuse box. I have quoted to rewire the lighting , re terminate the dodgy stuff and fit a new rcbo board.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Just looked up the Sec 26 Notice:

Who does the Esqcr Regulations 2002 apply to?
—(1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

Did you take a reading off the incoming sheath?

If indeed the quote above is correct, the regulation did not apply to the DNO that had not supplied the incoming with a neutral and protective function combined, ergo did they have the authority to turn off the supply due to issuing that notice.

Again I will ask the question did you take a reading off the incoming sheath?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Part Pee is not working , the amount of dog Sh!t work I rectify that has been done by scam registered sparks pretty much keeps me in business these days.
Most recent a brand new kitchen wired up by a scam registered sparks , all nice new chrome switches and sockets. The lighting circuit has no cpc as it old and wired in twin yet they fitted 3 new chrome switches. several sockets the cables were all loose, and the cooker was connected with 15amp connector block in 1.5mm cable all thrown under the units. NICE

Old 3036 rewirable fuse box. I have quoted to rewire the lighting , re terminate the dodgy stuff and fit a new rcbo board.

Have to agree with the type of work you have stated there. I wonder if it is just kitchen fitters though, who have no proper understanding of the electrics, other than to make it work.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Have to agree with the type of work you have stated there. I wonder if it is just kitchen fitters though, who have no proper understanding of the electrics, other than to make it work.

Apparently the work was all 'checked' and 'signed off' by a CPS electrician on behalf of the kitchen company

I will be interested to see the paper work , if I get the rest of the work I have quoted for

 

[Lister1987]

Regulation 26 in full;
26.(1) Where a connection to a distributor's network has been made, or is proposed, and the distributor is not satisfied that the consumer's installation or other distributor's network or street electrical fixture which is or would be connected to his network is or would be so constructed, installed, protected and used or arranged for use so as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, danger or interference with his or any other distributor's network, or with the supply to any consumer's installation or street electrical fixture, he may issue a notice in writing to the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture (as the case may be) requiring remedial works to be carried out within such reasonable period as may be specified in the notice.

(2) If the remedial works specified in the notice by the distributor are not carried out by the end of the period specified in the notice the distributor may disconnect or refuse to connect (as the case may be) the supply to the consumer's installation or other distributor's network or street electrical fixture, and in such an event the distributor shall by further notice in writing addressed to the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture (as the case may be) set out the reasons for the disconnection or refusal to connect.

(3) A distributor may disconnect the supply to the consumer's installation or other distributor's network or street electrical fixture without giving notice as required by paragraph (1) if such disconnection can be justified on grounds of safety, but in such an event the distributor shall by notice in writing addressed to the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture (as the case may be) and served as soon as reasonably practicable after the disconnection, give the reasons for such disconnection and if applicable details of any remedial measures required to be taken by the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture.

(4) The distributor shall connect or restore the supply when the stipulated remedial measures have been taken by the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture (as the case may be) to the reasonable satisfaction of the distributor, or if no remedial measures are required, as soon as is reasonably practicable after the grounds for disconnection have ceased to apply.

(5) Any dispute between the distributor and the consumer or other distributor or owner of the street electrical fixture (as the case may be), over the disconnection of or refusal to connect the consumer's installation or other distributor's network or street electrical fixture which cannot be resolved between them, may be referred by any of them to the Secretary of State who shall appoint a suitably qualified person to determine the dispute and to order as he thinks fit whether the costs (or any part of them) associated with the determination should be borne by one or other of the parties.

(6) Where a referral is made to the Secretary of State in accordance with paragraph (5) before the expiry of the notice period referred to in paragraph (1), the distributor shall not take any action pursuant to paragraph (2) until the determination of the dispute.
(7) Following the determination by the person appointed by the Secretary of State, the distributor shall maintain, connect, restore or may disconnect the supply as appropriate, subject to any conditions which the person appointed by the Secretary of State may stipulate in his determination.
(8) A copy of this regulation shall be endorsed upon or accompany every notice given by the distributor pursuant to this regulation.

It is likely the disconnection was made under 26(3) as this requires no such remedial action be considered. The DSO version of "its MY ball and I'm taking it home"

 

[snowhead]

It is likely the disconnection was made under 26(3) as this requires no such remedial action be considered. The DSO version of "its MY ball and I'm taking it home"

And before I bring my ball back out to play I'll want paying for the cost of reconnection and possibly the disconnection as well.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It is likely the disconnection was made under 26(3) as this requires no such remedial action be considered. The DSO version of "its MY ball and I'm taking it home"

If there was danger present as a result of the fault, I could see their argument. But a missing earth is still 1 step away from danger. Seems to me that the knee-jerk disconnection of power could itself cause danger.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Conversely did they check to ensure that no one within those flats was going to be left vulnerable by switching off the electricity and having no lighting or heating?

 

[JosephandAmber]

Would you not at least sort the one you were originally changing a CU for?

The problem was that the front garden is owned by the basement flat who need to give permission to install the rod - which we've now had.

It seems a bit of overkill to me, switching off the power to the whole building without notice, for a fault that has probably been there for decades. On the few occasions that I, or my clients, have reported defective earths, the DNO has been much more 'relaxed' in their response to it, usually dealing with it in a matter of weeks rather than days.

Were there any parallel paths via bonding etc?

In the flat I was dealing with well... there was no bonding despite the EICR saying there was.

Only the same as dealing with four clients, and let's not forget getting paid four times.

Just looked up the Sec 26 Notice:

Who does the Esqcr Regulations 2002 apply to?
—(1) This regulation applies to distributors' low voltage networks in which the neutral and protective functions are combined.

Did you take a reading off the incoming sheath?

So to complicate things further the suppliers head had been boxed over meaning you couldn't get to the incoming cable. You could see however that it had no remains of a previous TN-S connection.

Now this will be an interesting thread to have updated @JosephandAmber
Do keep us posted. As soon as you get any updates you need to stop whatever you are doing, log on and update

Will do!

If there was danger present as a result of the fault, I could see their argument. But a missing earth is still 1 step away from danger. Seems to me that the knee-jerk disconnection of power could itself cause danger.

I think what made matters worse was it is clear the general installation was ancient. Only 1 of 4 flats had an RCD.

Conversely did they check to ensure that no one within those flats was going to be left vulnerable by switching off the electricity and having no lighting or heating?

So they knocked on all the doors and informed those who were in. Those who were not got a notice and a call to their landlord/agent. As it stands the tenants are in hotels.

After a lot of discussions, all landlords have got their act together and I have permission to install a TT system tomorrow morning. I'll connect the flat I was working on and then they can decide if they want me to do their connections. Although I will insist on an EICR at the same time since their existing EICRs are clearly worthless.

Will update once I hear from NICEIC!

 

[Mike Johnson]

How many supplies into the building, one or four?

 

[UNG]

Will update once I hear from NICEIC!

If there is not a positive / satisfactory outcome with the NICEIC this is one that really should be elevated to the UKAS complaints process

 

[pc1966]

It might be worth also reporting it to Trading Standards, see this thread:

Poor EICR report results in prosecution | on Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums

Find Poor EICR report results in prosecution Advice and Help. How-to Poor EICR report results in prosecution in the UK Electrical Forum advice boards on ElectriciansForums.net | Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums: Electricians' Talk Forums. Poor EICR report results in prosecution on...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[JosephandAmber]

So was back at the property today (yes, Sunday). Sunk an earth rod and got a reading of 14.2 which I must admit surprised me. Power is back on for the property I was working on. Two flats have turned the power back on themselves but want me to do an EICR and connect their earth. The fourth flat, well I've not heard anything from them yet and the tenant is currently staying in a hotel.

 

[JosephandAmber]

It might be worth also reporting it to Trading Standards, see this thread:

Poor EICR report results in prosecution | on Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums

Find Poor EICR report results in prosecution Advice and Help. How-to Poor EICR report results in prosecution in the UK Electrical Forum advice boards on ElectriciansForums.net | Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums: Electricians' Talk Forums. Poor EICR report results in prosecution on...

www.electriciansforums.net

Just submitted to Camden council. Will see what happens. I suspect as I am not the property owner they are going to wiggle out of taking any action.

 

[brianmoooore]

Wow I hope those guys get chucked out of the cps but bet nothing happens, prob NICEIC will just say you need to complain direct to the contractors first, completely missing the point..

Doubt if even that will happen.
What should happen is that they are prosecuted for fraud and endangering of life, and imprisoned, but I won't hold my breath.
When 'Part P' was proposed, I said that the only difference will be that the monkeys out there will just become monkeys with a bit of paper in their hands. Won't make any difference to standards.
Looks like I've been proved wrong. Standards have dropped.