Two NICEIC installers failed to spot the lack of earth

[JosephandAmber]

Agent contacts me with an urgent request for a CU upgrade in Camden. They send over an EICR done the previous month and I have a quick skim. All seems pretty simple, CU needs an upgrade and some basic tidying of fixtures etc. Only 3 circuits so I'm not overly bothered about doing another EICR prior to doing the CU replacement.

Turn up to the property and within 10 mins I note there is no visible MET, nor is there any visible earth supply coming from the head. So I head inside and run some tests, again no earth. So I knock on the basement property and ask to test their installation, again no earth. Ok, so by this point I'm baffled by the lack of a main earth. So I called UKPN who send an engineer and he confirmed my fears, the property has never had an earth supply nor will they add one. As a result, he then issues all 4 flats with a Sec 26 ESQCR notice and turns off power to the entire building.

As you can imagine with 4 privately rented flats each with their own agents and landlords it kicks off. Turns out 2 of the 4 flats had EICRs completed within the past 3 months. One had a new CU installed. The property HAS NO EARTH!

Both EICRs were issued by NICEIC approved installers. Readings were recorded that could not have physically been taken. What is going on!?

 

[JosephandAmber]

Quick update - trading standards have been in touch for more details. NICEIC has confirmed someone has been assigned to the case but I have yet to hear from them.

I forgot to mention this in my initial post - the flat that had recently had the CU upgrade had a new earth running from the flat all the way to the non-existent MET. The electrician had then just left the cable disconnected and energised the new CU. This property is managed by an agent who has insisted on sending the same electrician back to make good the job. I bumped into him and gave him an earful - he didn't have much to say other than straight-up lie. Unfortunatly I don't think the agent is going to share his details with me, nor did his van or CU have any branding on it.

So right now I'm going after the company that issued the fraudulent EICR for the flat I worked on.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The tenant will have details of the letting agent if you want that information to give to trading standards.

 

[pc1966]

As @Mike Johnson says you ought to get info from the tenants about the agents and then Trading Standards or even HSE can compel them to provide information on who did the work and registration status, etc.

It is not just dodgy electricians that are the issue, it is those landlords who use them when they almost certainly know better.

 

[nicebutdim]

I forgot to mention this in my initial post - the flat that had recently had the CU upgrade had a new earth running from the flat all the way to the non-existent MET. The electrician had then just left the cable disconnected and energised the new CU.

Not a single **** given. Takes a special sort of person to knowingly leave a property like that.

 

[Spaldingsparks]

Well done for being an honest electrician and No main earth to me is a code 1 requiring immediate rectification or disconnection.

I once went into a prayer house that had no earth and the people had removed their footwear bare floors and the walls had just been plastered a few days before. This was some time ago I put a neon screwdriver on the wall as they were complaining of electric shocks! that was no earth at all, my trusty neon lit up like a spotlight the walls were live I checked the MET and connected it all then ok. cowboys have been about a long time this was in the late 70s

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

So I've just sent off a complaint to the NICEIC (they are listed as a domestic installer) concerning the EICR that was issued for the property I was working on. I've attached the EICR (Ze included) they issued and the UKPN notification that the property has no earth. I will update you when I get a response.

I am in the process of getting the details for the other property.

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

Unless they are approved for PRS - eicrs then the domestic installer scheme doesnt cover EICRS, so they may turn around out say its outside of the scope or the work they are approved for, nothing to do with us... however if they put the NICEIC logo on the certs or have been completely daft then you might find the NICEIC do take action as there has been a change of late where they do take action. if you say which area they are in somebody on here will likely know which assessor covers that area you might then get somewhere.

I would be more inclined to go to trading standards as its fraud and illegal trading etc... a spark recently got prosecuted and find for doing a drive by EICR on a house pre purchase. it was trading standards who took him to court

 

[JosephandAmber]

So I have a response from the NICEIC:

Good afternoon Mr XXXX,

Thank you for your email and bringing to our attention the condition report which was conducted by XXXX Services.

When it comes to complaints associated with EICR’s (Electrical Installation Condition Reports) our process is limited as to what action we can take. This is due to the fact that, as its title indicates, the document is a report and not a certificate.

It provides an assessment of the current in-service condition of an electrical installation against the requirements of the edition of BS 7671 current at the time of the inspection, irrespective of the age of the installation.

The report is primarily for the benefit of the person ordering the work and of persons subsequently involved in additional or remedial work, or further inspections. The report may be required for one or more of a variety of reasons, each of which may impose particular requirements or limitations on the inspection and testing.

As such, the engineer carrying out and producing the report will come to a conclusion based on their assessment of the installation, using their experience and knowledge.

Invariably, different engineers have different opinions of installations and their associated coding outcomes.

Where we see clear and obvious errors within an EICR and coding observations that do not reflect industry standard best practice guidance, we can investigate further and seek clarification from the contractor as to why certain coding’s and observations were used.

Please note, this may result in certain observations or coding’s receiving clarity from the contractor responsible for the report, however it may not change the technical outcome of the EICR and the report itself may remain as ‘unsatisfactory’ in terms of the overall assessment of the installation.

We will now review the EICR with our engineer and get back to you with clarity on the matter and advise you of the next steps we can proceed with.

When deciding on which contractor to use for an EICR, we recommend the use of a contractor who is registered with the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor, as undertaking and producing EICR’s form part of the contractors annual assessment process.

Contractors registered with the NICEIC as Domestic Installers are predominantly registered on this scheme to undertake work associated with Part P of The Building Regulation which covers work in domestic properties.

Private landlords in the rental sector should also refer to the new legislation which came into force on June 2020, detail of this legislation can be obtained in the link below

Guide for landlords: electrical safety standards in the private rented sector - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me on the details below.

 

[pc1966]

So basically you got a template reply and not anyone who actually read your complaint?

 

[timhoward]

So basically you got a template reply and not anyone who actually read your complaint?

It does at least say
"We will now review the EICR with our engineer and get back to you with clarity on the matter and advise you of the next steps we can proceed with."

I can imagine the phone call...
"Hello, it's Mr Cholmondley-Warner esq. here from NICEIC. Good afternoon. Thing is, we've had an enquiry about an EICR you did. How did you go about measuring the external earth loop impedance.... oh I see you did it by enquiry and the DNO said 0.35 ohms, ok, splendid, splendid. What about all the measured Zs readings then? Oh they were by calculation based on R1+R2 values. That's all fine and perfectly understandable then. Were you at all bothered about the complete lack of anything yellow and green near the cut-out? Oh you're colour blind and it was dark, yes that's completely understandable. Sorry to have bothered you, have a good day."

I've also known someone creatively claim the report related to a different property and was an admin mix up when I was asked to do remedials and found the entire report was fiction.

But these things aren't usually quite so black and white so this will be an interesting one to follow.

 

[UNG]

So I have a response from the NICEIC:

As such, the engineer carrying out and producing the report will come to a conclusion based on their assessment of the installation, using their experience and knowledge.

Invariably, different engineers have different opinions of installations and their associated coding outcomes.

Where we see clear and obvious errors within an EICR and coding observations that do not reflect industry standard best practice guidance, we can investigate further and seek clarification from the contractor as to why certain coding’s and observations were used.

Please note, this may result in certain observations or coding’s receiving clarity from the contractor responsible for the report, however it may not change the technical outcome of the EICR and the report itself may remain as ‘unsatisfactory’ in terms of the overall assessment of the installation.

We will now review the EICR with our engineer and get back to you with clarity on the matter and advise you of the next steps we can proceed with.

When deciding on which contractor to use for an EICR, we recommend the use of a contractor who is registered with the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor, as undertaking and producing EICR’s form part of the contractors annual assessment process.

How does the NICEIC assess the coding's and observations if there aren't any relating to the lack of any earthing on the installation

In cases like this it always annoys me that the DNO will not use it's weight and raise a complaint with the NICEIC

I'm now looking forward to the outcome of the review and how they can provide more clarity on something as serious as a total lack earthing on an installation

When deciding on which contractor to use for an EICR, we recommend the use of a contractor who is registered with the NICEIC as an Approved Contractor, as undertaking and producing EICR’s form part of the contractors annual assessment process.

And exactly how do the NICEIC assess a contractors ability to produce accurate and truthful EICR's as it is clearly failing somewhere

When it comes to dodgy and poor quality EICR's I do wonder how many there are out there with people believing they have a safe installation that complies with the regs, while most of what we see on here relates to domestic installations there must be just as many commercial installations in a similar state in fact just over 12 months ago I was asked to review a recent EICR on a local church (my wife is on the PCC) it had unswitched sockets down as a C2 for no means of isolation but had no mention of the state of the service head and the number or 951 clamps on the incoming cable for the main earths. I had the chance to review all the EICR's dating back to 2004 and they all had missed very obvious faults that would have lead to an unsatisfactory report had the inspection and test for each EICR been done correctly at the time and all of them done by NICEIC approved contractors so the failing EICR system has been around for a good while

 

[Lister1987]

And exactly how do the NICEIC assess a contractors ability to produce accurate and truthful EICR's as it is clearly failing somewhere

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

 

[UNG]

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

Which is the point I was making the NICEIC made what I think is a false statement in what I quoted from their response

 

[Teddy Lop]

So I've just sent off a complaint to the NICEIC (they are listed as a domestic installer) concerning the EICR that was issued for the property I was working on. I've attached the EICR (Ze included) they issued and the UKPN notification that the property has no earth. I will update you when I get a response.

I am in the process of getting the details for the other property.

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

I first tried complaining to them about a members fantasies regarding installation particulars before there even was a part P and all that, didn't get far.

Its a peculiar dissonance between the a-ho assessor who seems to want to catch me out and school me every year and the response you get as joe public with a complaint. But yeah, there is TONS of drive-by false EICR's going on, and the way aforementioned assessor squirms and informs me that this is in fact some "variability" that needs "education" is pathetic.

BTW UKPN are terrible - took half a year to get them to attend site on an earth failure to a block of flats I had in hampstead, then the guy just PME'd it and waltzed off, no other checks of any kind. A more recent one they just point blank refused to come out until the client submitted an EICR, then the following day the earth mysteriously came back down from ~1.5 to 0.3 ohms! Ultimately though, the most you'll get from them is they'll replace their rotten 80 year old cable to the street (after you've done all the hard work installing duct for them) and charge you about 10 grand to sling a cable down it. And thats only if you're babysitting them and able to refute their "snags" that incur penalty cancellation charges and threats/attempts to leave client with no power...

 

[JosephandAmber]

Good morning Joseph,





Thank you for your email below.



I can confirm that we have forwarded through your complaint for an internal investigation against the contractor however due to confidentiality clauses with all memberships, we cannot provide the outcome of the investigation as some may affect a contractors membership.



If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me on the details below.



Kind regards, XXXX

Upon asking for an update with regards to my complaint this is what I received. What do we think my next steps should be?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Trading standards, possibly the tenant should also go to citizens advice to put the landlord on the line and find out the trading name of the electrician.

 

[pc1966]

I agree with @Mike Johnson as it seems the scheme is closing ranks and not doing anything about the issue. Trading standards don't have any membership fees confidentiality issues to hamper them in getting some redress for the original payers of the work.

 

[Markyd]

Had dealings with the NICEIC twice in the last six months about two installs done by two different tos$pots....They just dont want to know which makes them tos$pots also

 

[DefyG]

Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

Laughable really as one of the items they check during an annual assessment is that you have procedures set up for dealing with complaints!

 

[Simon47]

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they?

Of course not - they don't want any complaints. What has become perfectly clear from this and many other threads is that they are interested in one thing only - collecting their membership fees.

 

[Dartlec]

Btw NICEIC don't make it easy to complain, do they? Download and fill out a PDF that then has to be emailed to a specific address. Why not you know... just have an online complaints form?

To be fair not sure that's just about avoiding complaints - their entire online system for their members is a mess of various things stuck together with packing tape from what I can tell whenever I try to find something.

They push us having complaints procedures and check that each year, but don't seem set up to deal with issues from third parties directly to them.

I have heard of them getting members back out to correct issues, but would be interested to know how many they actually cancel each year.

It's always a problem when you have private schemes that charge money for membership, as the incentive is not to lose their cash cow - and any bad press seems not to make enough impact on their bottom line to get them to do anything.

What should have happened was that electricians went towards some sort of CORGI like scheme, nationally registered with a single body, with proper independent oversight.

Then the entire industry could work together to improve standards across the board.... What a novel and completely idealistic idea!

 

[Mike Johnson]

A Government run scheme would have to be overseen by the HSE who are not set up to administer electrical installations, jobs for the boys come to mind, to set up such an organisation would take months of planning and special committees to prepare a report on how to set it up, then recruitment would start from within the Civil Service, first class honours degree a minimum standard overseen by a minister, but then the most essential part is setting up a committee to name the department, that would take at least a couple of years, any suggestions? I would go for Committee Responsible for Administration of Power Supplies or C.R.A.P.S.

 

[Lister1987]

Think it's a bit unprofessional; ending an email with kisses

 

[UNG]

Upon asking for an update with regards to my complaint this is what I received. What do we think my next steps should be?

Had dealings with the NICEIC twice in the last six months about two installs done by two different tos$pots....They just dont want to know which makes them tos$pots also

As the NICEIC are a UKAS accredited organisation I would elevate the complaint to UKAS , at the bottom of the contact us page "I have a complaint or wish to give feedback about UKAS or one of UKAS’ accredited organisations" which gives phone and email contact details

Maybe it needs the UKAS assessment people to ask questions of the NICEIC I don't see how you can have a complaints procedure and not inform the person making the complaint whether the complaint is upheld or not. To sight confidentiality as a reason for not informing the outcome of a complaint is a bit of a poor and weak excuse when any complaint involves not only the reputation or lack of that the contractor has shown but also that of the NICEIC as they are the ones who have assessed the contractors competence
I just wonder how many more nails are needed before the NICEIC is dead and buried as a once respected organisation you can't live on your past reputation when the industry is now going to the dogs on the back of making a quick buck and no doubt a pay bonus for those running it

 

[Petej999]

They don't, thry merely "authorise' to do them, all that is required is to cross a palm with silver and you're good.

Bad news for the NICEIC if it's true

 

[Mike Johnson]

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

 

[Petej999]

Perhaps the NICEIC has had its day, time to move to a different scam provider perhaps?

Oh no

 

[Mike Johnson]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

 

[Lister1987]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

It's not April 1st for a few more days Mike

 

[UNG]

News story:

Mass resignation forces NICEIC to bankruptcy and close its membership scheme/scam.

If only it was true

 

[Mike Johnson]

Only the members can make it happen.