Vphase units

[Engineer54]

Big n Daft
Hope this helps
30 years with Seeboard/EDF the last 12 (I think) on industrial, but including energy marketing, contracting and installation inspection. Followed by a brief spell in electrical wholesale, I have gone back 'on the tools', persuaded by my cousin to take on his project work at a large UK holiday group, which he is looking to roll out voltage optimisation, both commercial and domestic, hence my original interest in the forum for the domestic. I have passed on the details and comments in this and other forums and he assures me he has looked and is still determined to go ahead following advice from his DNO. He tells me the figures he has been given, although not guaranteed, show combined payback in just over 1.5 years, the commercial unit for the main buildings is 1.1 year and the 250 chalets etc 3.2yrs. Additional savings expected in lamp maintenance etc. (Incidentally his DNO which I beleive is SSE recommended Vphase)
So that's me!

I'm gobsmacked!! All i can say is that there must be an awful lot of gullible people around if they are going to take energy/money saving figures on this scale without minimal guarantee's from the manufactures. Those payback periods seem way out, unless he's getting some big discounts on these units, and getting you to install them all on your salary. Why is it these people keep quoting lamp savings?? All your doing is reducing lamp output, and on Flu's of any type etc, you could well be saving nothing, at reduced voltages, may even be increasing consumption...

Assumptions are worthless and can be very costly when wrong...

If that is correct, ...in that DNO companies are advising house holders to go the vphase/or similar route to energy saving, ....Best not to take it... instead get yourself one of there smart meters so you can do your own energy saving by switching off what you don't need to be on.

 

[Marvo]

I agree, as I have not measured lower than 243v over the last year.

....they decided, ...on paper anyway to knock 10 volts off of UK's 240V (415/240) and added 10 volts to Europe 220v (220/380)?? So now, even though the voltages remain the same as they always were, we have this virtual or make-believe nominal voltage accross Europe of 230V (400/230)

I must have been absent the day they covered virtual voltages at college.

So they didn't actually drop the voltage at all......that's strange.

Then if a domestic premises has a voltage (an actual voltage not a virtual one ) of 240v and one of these optimiser units can drop it say to 220, if it's installed to supply circuits with mixed loads rather than pure heating appliances then in theory it could save maybe up to 10% of the energy consumed on those particular circuits.

If I take my own domestic installation and I used one to supply say the pool and irrigation pumps, the ceiling fan circuit that supplies all the rooms, my home office with computers/printers etc and the lighting circuits, why would it not save me up to 10% of that consumption?

 

[spark 68]

Hi Marvo,

The tolerances (not the actual supply voltages) were changed from 1st Jan 1995 to harmonise with Europe, ie. nominal supply = 230V and are as follows:

pre 1995 = Nom. 240V, +6%/-6% = 225.6V to 254.4V

From 1st Jan
1995 = Nom. 230V,+10%/-6% = 216.2V to 253.0V

As you can see from above, this was a 'paper exercise' only, ie. the supply Voltage was not changed, only the tolerances.

 

[Big n Daft]

Eng54,
I'm with you on this one big style.
Gordon,
The flack that will come from fitting these units WHEN it doesnt work is going to fun. The only reasoning behind them that could work is that all the appliances are designed to work at 230v, if you think that this will work in a modern home with all its electronic equipment then crack on.
I went to Vphase and was initially taken in, then I did some maths. Whatever anybody says the laws of physics are set in stone until proven wrong. The makers of these domestic regulators are very clever people, they seem to change the laws of physics to suit themselves.
How somebody of your knowledge is going to fit these things and get yourself in the firing line is beyond me.
Still thats my last words on these wonders of modern science.
Engy54,
Dont waste you time on this, you could be imparting your knowledge on other people.

 

[Engineer54]

I must have been absent the day they covered virtual voltages at college.

So they didn't actually drop the voltage at all......that's strange.

Then if a domestic premises has a voltage (an actual voltage not a virtual one ) of 240v and one of these optimiser units can drop it say to 220, if it's installed to supply circuits with mixed loads rather than pure heating appliances then in theory it could save maybe up to 10% of the energy consumed on those particular circuits.

If I take my own domestic installation and I used one to supply say the pool and irrigation pumps, the ceiling fan circuit that supplies all the rooms, my home office with computers/printers etc and the lighting circuits, why would it not save me up to 10% of that consumption?

I guess nothing to stop you saving a bit of cash, if all those loads are motor based. The lighting side of things will at the very best will just Dim the lamps, which is a bit pointless to me. Makes a bit of a mockery of ensuring VD calculations to lighting circuits are adhered too at time of installation!! lol!! The same with any purely resistive heating loads, you won't save anything, and things will just take longer to reach temperature etc...

I don't know about you, but if a piece of equipment has been made/manufactured to work at a voltage, with say a plus 10 % and minus of 6% tolerance (the tolerance is normally lower on reduced voltage) is it's life expectancy going to be affected by supplying that equipment beyond/outside that tolerance?? I'm not sure they can state, that such appliances will work more efficiently outside of stated manufacturers tolerances either!! I'd like to hear what the various appliance manufacturers have to say, about running there goods outside of there stated tolerances, what's the betting they would come back with guarantees being voided. ..lol!!!

Apart from anything else, the unit needs to be able to handle decent loading, before going into by-pass or whatever, canceling out any saving. You pays your money and take your chances. ..lol!!

 

[UNG]

The saving I make on this device is between £60-70 per year based on my measured data. It cost me £180 to buy yes I had a friend fit it for free. Payback 180/65 =2.7 years. Yes I am promoting this device because I been really pleased with it’s a great energy saving device and of people have rubbished it. Do I have any links with company who make unit no. I am a fool I hope not. My qualifications and pear reviewed publications in the area of power generation efficiency suggests that that my scientific understand is sound. I don’t think that there is any reason for you to be so rude and nasty. I hope you’re pathetic out burst make you feel a happier person.

There are so many variables on energy usage in the home it would be difficult to verify any savings made unless everything in your home is run on a like for like basis before and after installation of any voltage reduction unit

My thanks to PClark on this one was simply a relief to my frustration that it seemed to be the only constructive comment in the thread, everything else purely dismissive with no content, as on a lot of the other forums.

So one positive poster and plenty of negative posters sways your decision in favour of installing them I'll have to think about that one. The dismissives have posted plenty of reasons not least the fact that these units appear to rewrite the laws of physics that we all use in our trade every day

I have had some limited experience with commercial versions and seen the technology working, I am disappointed that others seem not to understand that it can work. I do agree that in some cases domestically the annual bills are too low to justify the outlay, and am fully aware of the limitations regarding resistive/thermostatically heated items.

Commercial installations may work in conjuction with PF correction. Do you expect every body to lie down and accept that these units work, there appears to be a bit of bu****** attempting to baffle brains here but I still think these units are like the kings new clothes

The company I am pricing tells me that many housing associations are already installing them and indeed recommending them.

So they have read a websites case study and been taken in

The three above all seem to produce similar savings but each in a slightly different way, and with drastically different costs. So having accepted that the technology works, and realising that some people do believe in it and are already fitting it or having it fitted anyway, my problem is still which one to go for?

I think you may be on the wrong site to expect an answer to that one as at the moment you are in a majority of two

The Vphase uses 'anti-phase' voltage to maintain 220v which I am told works similar to noise reducing headphones!

I think it helps if the headphones are turned down when listening to the claims and benefits these units offer

I have only got the sales information from my supplier and briefly looked at the websites so not very 'Technical' I'm afraid, but all have helplines, just haven't had chance to ring yet.

So you have made up your mind to buy / install these units based on the lack of techinal info on a website does it not tell you something if they can't be bothered or able to put it on their website

Haha, .... it's a make believe,or virtual voltage they have in the UK now, the same as it is in Europe too. For some convoluted reason, the powers that be decided that Europe should also have a single voltage so they decided, ...on paper anyway to knock 10 volts off of UK's 240V (415/240) and added 10 volts to Europe 220v (220/380)?? So now, even though the voltages remain the same as they always were, we have this virtual or make-believe nominal voltage accross Europe of 230V (400/230)

Went to a DNO presention prior to harmonisation, a guy talked for nearly an hour on various aspects and reasons for it's introduction and at the end said that they would not be doing anything to reduce the volage to 230v as the current voltages fell within limits

I have passed on the details and comments in this and other forums and he assures me he has looked and is still determined to go ahead following advice from his DNO. He tells me the figures he has been given, although not guaranteed, show combined payback in just over 1.5 years, the commercial unit for the main buildings is 1.1 year and the 250 chalets etc 3.2yrs. Additional savings expected in lamp maintenance etc. (Incidentally his DNO which I beleive is SSE recommended Vphase)
So that's me!

So if these units are so good why do they not guarantee the savings figures they have produced or have they been over inflated to make the payback look good

I must have been absent the day they covered virtual voltages at college.

So they didn't actually drop the voltage at all......that's strange.

Then if a domestic premises has a voltage (an actual voltage not a virtual one ) of 240v and one of these optimiser units can drop it say to 220, if it's installed to supply circuits with mixed loads rather than pure heating appliances then in theory it could save maybe up to 10% of the energy consumed on those particular circuits.

If I take my own domestic installation and I used one to supply say the pool and irrigation pumps, the ceiling fan circuit that supplies all the rooms, my home office with computers/printers etc and the lighting circuits, why would it not save me up to 10% of that consumption?

Is this another one getting taken in by this hype

 

[Marvo]

Is this another one getting taken in by this hype

I think that's a bit harsh, I haven't read their hype. You can save money on your power bill by using one of these, it's not bending the laws of physics. Problem is figuring out how much and obviously what the payback time is. There's also a lot of relatively complicated installation involved such as you would need to have it installed in such a fashion that it wasn't supplying heating loads such as electric stoves, kettles, ovens, and maybe microwaves etc. These would not have any savings and would infringe heavily on the max load before bypass and installing it so would escalate the cost in many existing premises.

I'll be honest and stick my neck out by saying there could/would be savings if...and it's a big 'if' ;

1. You have relatively high motor loads that run constantly and preferably predictably to avoid the bypass load threshold.
2. The gadget is installed correctly...or
3. The CU is a new install and it's design was around on of these being installed.

The final issue I see immediately is that you would only install one as part or an energy conservation plan. Where it slot into that plan is anybodies guess but almost certainly below things like upgrading insulation, installing double or triple glazing and relamping with CFL and LED lamps.

 

[topquark]

Pretty much entirely dependant on the types of loads and their usage.

 

[UNG]

I think that's a bit harsh, I haven't read their hype. You can save money on your power bill by using one of these, it's not bending the laws of physics.

I'm sorry if you find it harsh but up to now all I have seen is little information with unsubstantiated savings

If you can save money reducing your voltage with one of these units then please enlighten the sceptics on the physics of the unit

Problem is figuring out how much and obviously what the payback time is. There's also a lot of relatively complicated installation involved such as you would need to have it installed in such a fashion that it wasn't supplying heating loads such as electric stoves, kettles, ovens, and maybe microwaves etc. These would not have any savings and would infringe heavily on the max load before bypass and installing it so would escalate the cost in many existing premises.

Figuring out savings and payback is a problem that cannot be solved from the information I've seen up to now

A complicated install will only increase the install cost therefore increasing the payback period so savings are up the swanee for longer

I'll be honest and stick my neck out by saying there could/would be savings if...and it's a big 'if' ;

Do I detect some scepticism here

1. You have relatively high motor loads that run constantly and preferably predictably to avoid the bypass load threshold.
2. The gadget is installed correctly...or
3. The CU is a new install and it's design was around on of these being installed.

1. How many homes have relatively high motor loads to benefit from installation of one of these units
2. Why would you not install it correctly?

The final issue I see immediately is that you would only install one as part or an energy conservation plan. Where it slot into that plan is anybodies guess but almost certainly below things like upgrading insulation, installing double or triple glazing and relamping with CFL and LED lamps.

By carrying out all the things you mention it would be difficult to quantify any savings the unit may produce


I'm still not convinced by any of this tripe and becoming more sceptical by the minute.

 

[Marvo]

I'm sorry if you find it harsh but up to now all I have seen is little information with unsubstantiated savings

If you can save money reducing your voltage with one of these units then please enlighten the sceptics on the physics of the unit

The unit provides an output at an optimised voltage which is less than the usual supply voltage. How it does it is immaterial. Your question does however make me wonder what the losses are through this unit.....but I digress.

Here's the math as I see it;

If my irrigation pump and my swimming pool pump are both 1 kw and they're set to run sequentially without overlap and both run for 5 hours each.
If my usual voltage is 247 as someone stated previously and the vphase reduces this to 220v Then the drop in supply voltage will cause a corresponding drop in run current which equals a drop in energy consumption. If the drop in energy consumption is 10% after efficiency considerations then it will save roughly 0.1KW for 10 hours which is 1 KWh.

Do I detect some scepticism here

Very much so. As I said there would need to be strict criteria involved to achieve energy savings the might be worthwhile.

1. How many homes have relatively high motor loads to benefit from installation of one of these units
2. Why would you not install it correctly?

Don't know the answer to question 1 but I have a borehole pump, an irrigation pump and a pool pump so I would qualify as having a considerable motor element to my electrical load.

When I say 'install correctly I should have said 'install it in the optimum configuration so it supplies appropriate loads.'

I'm still not convinced by any of this tripe and becoming more sceptical by the minute.

I doubt I'll convince you to fit one cause I don't think I'd convince myself to fit one either. To be honest I don't know what price they retail for and I'm even more clueless on how much it would cost to install.
The actual savings would be very difficult to assess accurately as previously pointed out.
All I'm saying is the broad theory behind voltage optimisation works, realistically I think they may have a niche market in new build projects but I wouldn't like to have to sell them to Joe Public in large numbers.

 

[spark 68]

Hi Marvo,

Please correct me if Iam wrong, but don't motors pull more current when under run ?, this is a genuine question, and I will stand to be corrected.

 

[Marvo]

The efficiency and power factor may change for the worse at low voltages but if the motor is designed for EU usage (220v) then these effects should be negligible.
Apart from that the run current would decrease if the voltages decreased from >240 to 220.

Why do you think they might run at higher current?

 

[spark 68]

Why do you think they might run at higher current?

I remember reading about it somewhere, where it was considered bad practice to under run motors, as they would pull more current and could cause damage to the windings, hence the VSD type drives which doesn't alter the voltage, just the frequency and time on/off (mark/space ratio).

 

[Marvo]

If the voltage drops sufficiently, ie probably <200v, it could cause lots of problems which would be mostly because the motor efficiency plummets, losses snowball and overeating follows.

 

[ipf]

Let's all talk about the cost affectiveness of wind farms.

 

[Engineer54]

Let's all talk about the cost affectiveness of wind farms.

Let's NOT!! ...lol!!

 

[ipf]

Let's NOT!! ...lol!!

ok then

 

[Knobhead]

Sorry Marvo, but a motors output at the shaft is governed by the load. Lower the voltage and the current goes up. Your bucket full of water requires the same power to fill it no matter which way you supply it. If the pump speed is varied efficiency is altered. So I’m afraid pumps are not a good example, not many small motors are.

 

[UNG]

The unit provides an output at an optimised voltage which is less than the usual supply voltage. How it does it is immaterial. Your question does however make me wonder what the losses are through this unit.....but I digress.

Here's the math as I see it;

If my irrigation pump and my swimming pool pump are both 1 kw and they're set to run sequentially without overlap and both run for 5 hours each.
If my usual voltage is 247 as someone stated previously and the vphase reduces this to 220v Then the drop in supply voltage will cause a corresponding drop in run current which equals a drop in energy consumption. If the drop in energy consumption is 10% after efficiency considerations then it will save roughly 0.1KW for 10 hours which is 1 KWh.

Any drop in voltage will result in an increase in current so how it does it is relevant. Going back to basics the only constant value in a circuit is resistance, having done a quick calc 244v x16A = 3904w if you assume the current remains constant then reducing the voltage by 10% results in 220v x 16A = 3520w a 10% ish reduction in the watts used, physics bending at work I think

Very much so. As I said there would need to be strict criteria involved to achieve energy savings the might be worthwhile.


Don't know the answer to question 1 but I have a borehole pump, an irrigation pump and a pool pump so I would qualify as having a considerable motor element to my electrical load.

When I say 'install correctly I should have said 'install it in the optimum configuration so it supplies appropriate loads.'


I doubt I'll convince you to fit one cause I don't think I'd convince myself to fit one either. To be honest I don't know what price they retail for and I'm even more clueless on how much it would cost to install.
The actual savings would be very difficult to assess accurately as previously pointed out.
All I'm saying is the broad theory behind voltage optimisation works, realistically I think they may have a niche market in new build projects but I wouldn't like to have to sell them to Joe Public in large numbers.

As I have said in previous posts the criteria used to show savings is flawed

Judging by your last few sentences your not as convinced as you appeared to be earlier.
If the broad theory behind voltage optimisation / reduction works then can someone explain how the practical side works.
If fitted on new builds you would not know whether it was saving you anything or not so it could be a white elephant on the wall.

 

[sbrown2]

Can I ask what theory this V phase unit works on? All of the other theories relating to current, voltage, frequency and phase angle have been covered. But what does this unit do?