Answers on a post card please or is it that the answer could be put on a postage stamp
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Vphase units
Discuss Vphase units in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
Answers on a post card please or is it that the answer could be put on a postage stamp
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Lol, please don't appologise, you're theory is spot on, I was just trying to avoid getting too deep into motor theory. The theory that low voltage is detrimental only applies once you're no longer running the motor in full flux saturation. My theory was that this wouldn't be the case if the motor was developed to run on EU supply.
As pointed out if the voltage decreases below a certain point it would result in lower flux and therefore loss in torque leading to high slip or stall and overload. Where I was thinking is that if the motor is designed to operate on EU voltages then it would still run in full saturation at a voltage that's 'optimised' from 247 to 220v and possibly a little lower. In actual fact it would be slightly oversaturated at UK voltages with some I²R losses. If this were the case then there would be an energy saving.
Yeah yeah I know I'm flogging a dead horse, the more look at this the more it looks like savings would be marginal and many of them might be at the expense of something else. The reason I'm not opposed to the general theory behind it is I've experienced voltage optimization setups in the industrial sector and there are large energy savings to be had same as there is with power factor correction. I can see there could be some savings to be had but I agree it would need to be specified on a case by case basis.
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Marvo I'm sure SA is the same when your in a hole you can't get out of the last thing you need is a .......shovel lol
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Aww c'mon,:rofl: I'm not writing anything off...even snake oil as somebody called it.... without exploring it fully. You're right though, I'm just about at the stage where I'm playing devils advocate on this one. We can't even use the optimisers here cause our voltage is 220v on a good day, usually nearer 200 in peak periods.
We can't even use the optimisers here cause our voltage is 220v on a good day, usually nearer 200 in peak periods.
- Reaction score
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This artical made an interesting read. http://itee.uq.edu.au/~aupec/aupec04/papers/PaperID77.pdf
Does anyone know if the results of the Ofgem Scottish Energy Trials have been released yet? Link
Does anyone know if the results of the Ofgem Scottish Energy Trials have been released yet? Link
OP
Knobhead
I hate to point this out Marvo but a quick glance at the first paper covers RAISING the voltage in Australia.
Sorry again :rofl:
Sorry again :rofl:
OP
Big n Daft
Good lord, you lot still at it.
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It's looking at the effects of operating domestic appliances at different voltages.
I'm trying a new tactic now. If the thread runs long enough I'm hoping Tony will install one at his house and let us know how much he saves.
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OP
Knobhead
Marvo, I might be big (6' 2") but I'm not daft!
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Pretty much what you'd expect, even with upside down electrons
OP
Sam the man
How about the VO4Home unit, that looks better but its £600!
OP
Guest111
NO,I told you that in our phone conversation did I not? your,e just turning into an old meldrew like me,btw you done anything about the meldrew lounge yet? lol
OP
Guest111
Ha I,ve got it finally and you are all way off the mark,obviously the unit does bugger all worth laying out that kind of money for and the sole reason for its existance is as follows, A to make the manufacturer money and B to give us lot on here something to get heated over on a regular basis :teeth_smile:
So there are savings to be made we haven't even bought one but we get heated by it:biggrin::biggrin:!!
OP
Knobhead
I’ll be honest, if someone offered one on a trial basis, I’d happily give it a whirl. If nothing else it would set my mind at rest. But how do you set up a definable test procedure in a domestic property?
A company I used to deal with have had a 400KVA unit fitted. They weren’t happy when I said all they needed to do was turn the 11/.44KV off load tap changer down 2.5%. In the foundry I dropped the voltage to one plant after we had trouble with voltage regulation at the weekend toasting VSD units.
With domestic supplies the distribution transformers aren’t fitted with tap changers. But the 33/11KV grid units have on load tap changers, it’s just a case of entering a new base value. But that would reduce demand and therefore profits.
A company I used to deal with have had a 400KVA unit fitted. They weren’t happy when I said all they needed to do was turn the 11/.44KV off load tap changer down 2.5%. In the foundry I dropped the voltage to one plant after we had trouble with voltage regulation at the weekend toasting VSD units.
With domestic supplies the distribution transformers aren’t fitted with tap changers. But the 33/11KV grid units have on load tap changers, it’s just a case of entering a new base value. But that would reduce demand and therefore profits.
OP
Knobhead
Brussels will not be happy until we’re down to 380V. I’ve worked on a plant that had two systems 433V and 380V what a cock up but the manufacturers of the printing machines would not guarantee the gear at the higher voltage.
The first plants I first worked in were all 550V. I helped put in the first of these weird 440V transformer things, after that it degenerated in to bedlam. As plants spread out the distribution systems over lapped. All 550V transformers had reverse phase rotation (a hangover from our own power station) then some loony decided new 440V transformers should have forward rotation. To totally confuse the situation I installed 5off 11/.44KV transformers in a plant that was mainly 550V, the powers that be decided the phase rotations should match.
So we had:
550V reverse
440V forward
440V reverse
I miss the place like I miss toothache!
The first plants I first worked in were all 550V. I helped put in the first of these weird 440V transformer things, after that it degenerated in to bedlam. As plants spread out the distribution systems over lapped. All 550V transformers had reverse phase rotation (a hangover from our own power station) then some loony decided new 440V transformers should have forward rotation. To totally confuse the situation I installed 5off 11/.44KV transformers in a plant that was mainly 550V, the powers that be decided the phase rotations should match.
So we had:
550V reverse
440V forward
440V reverse
I miss the place like I miss toothache!
OP
yorkshiremike
If it's any help,I've had a VPhase installed for the last 6 months - I didn't pay for it as such- was installed 'free' as part of a PV install.
Installation – It was possible on existing CU only because there was space andCU is a recent 16th/17th edition upgrade with several RCBOs. It was necessary to make a 3rd break in busbar so that the VPhase supplies the RCD block (upstairs and down stairs rings)and a block of mixed RCBOs (kitchen sockets, bathroom lights) and the non-RCD(smokes, downstairs lights), with the third (unregulated) block (most RCBOs)consisting of shed, oven/hob, PV and the feed to the VPhase.
The installation instructions for the VPhase state that it should not be usedto control any thermostatically controlled heavy heating loads (e.g. electriccookers, immersion heater, electric shower) and no heavy machine tool loads(presumably no big motors because of in rush currents?).
Out of the 40+ CUs I've seen in the last 4 months (when doing PV installations)there have only been 2 that would have allowed a fairly straight forwardinstallation.
Operation:
The spec says that the VPhase can regulate up to 20amps on a short termbasis, but I've never seen 4kW on mine before it bypasses. Practically, thismeans that any 2 high loads (e.g. steam iron + kettle) will send it temporarilyinto bypass. The VPhase is meant to be able to regulate at 8amps continuously(above this it gets too hot and goes into bypass). This seems about correct -on my unit it can regulate a 1.5kW load continuously, at 2kW after about 1 hourthe case temperature is 45+ degrees and the unit goes into bypass for about 10minutes then regulates again for about 40 minutes etc.
Losses in unit:
The spec says the VPhase losses are less than 1%. On my unit at a 2kWregulated load, the unit is consuming about 25W, so this seems about correct.However, it looks like it has a base consumption of about 10W-15W, so even atnight when the 'background' load is about 40W, the VPhase is consuming 25% ofthis.
Energy savings:
Equipment with universal electric motors in(vacuum cleaner, food processor, fridge etc) really do show reduced consumptionin the order of 18-20% (mains at 238-242V vs regulated 219-220V from VPhase).However, that's not the whole story. It's evident (change in pitch when switchbetween the 220 and 240) that the motors are running slower. It doesn't make much difference to how wellthe vacuum cleaner works, but although 'instantaneously' when the fridge/freezermotor is running it shows a 19% improvement, if I monitor the consumption overa week on 220V then on 240V the lower voltage only results in a 5% saving.Presumably because the fridge motor needs to do a certain amount of workcompressing the refrigerant and just runs for longer when the voltage isreduced.
As has been previously said, it makes no difference to any thermostaticallycontrolled heaters, they just run longer, i.e. takes exactlythe same number of Wattsxtime to boil the kettle or toast the bread. It looksthough like the microwave takes about 4% less energy to boil a cup of water at220V (takes a bit longer, but less than 10% longer and power consumption is 15%less).
White goods (dishwasher, washing machine)don't show a significant improvement <5%, I presume because most of energyused is in heating water, which isn't affected by voltage reduction - it's alsodifficult to do a consistent back to back test.
Lights - Most of my lights are LED, and Ican't discern any difference (either in brightness or energy consumption)running at the regulated 220 or 240V but the LEDs' consumption are close to theresolution/sensitivity of my test gear. The few halogens, consume about 15%less but are noticeably dimmer. Interestingly I tried an old (notelectronically regulated) fluorescent strip light and it showed both a 20%consumption improvement and no change in light output.
Electronic goods - Most of the stuff I havehas switch mode PSU (LCD TV, radios, computers, printers etc) and there's onlya very slight improvement running on a regulated 220V certainly less than 5%,seems to be about an average 2%.
Gas boiler - The peak electricity load (CHpump + flue fan) reduced by about 15%, it's possible that the pumps and fansrun longer to compensate, but I couldn't tell.
Conclusion: I've a fairly low electricityconsumption (8kWh per day, house occupied all day), and I make it that theoverall costs are somewhere between -£15 and +£5 (i.e. might cost an extra £5through to saving a maximum of £15), which equates to a maximum possible savingof about 3%. But, for example our lighting consumption is now 10% of that usedcooking, whereas before fitting the LEDs it was nearly the same and the newFridge Freezer uses 1/3 the power of the old one (which was the single biggestconsumer). So I would imagine it's possible if had an older F-F, lots ofhalogen/tungsten or fluorescent lights to see a saving over 5%.
Installation – It was possible on existing CU only because there was space andCU is a recent 16th/17th edition upgrade with several RCBOs. It was necessary to make a 3rd break in busbar so that the VPhase supplies the RCD block (upstairs and down stairs rings)and a block of mixed RCBOs (kitchen sockets, bathroom lights) and the non-RCD(smokes, downstairs lights), with the third (unregulated) block (most RCBOs)consisting of shed, oven/hob, PV and the feed to the VPhase.
The installation instructions for the VPhase state that it should not be usedto control any thermostatically controlled heavy heating loads (e.g. electriccookers, immersion heater, electric shower) and no heavy machine tool loads(presumably no big motors because of in rush currents?).
Out of the 40+ CUs I've seen in the last 4 months (when doing PV installations)there have only been 2 that would have allowed a fairly straight forwardinstallation.
Operation:
The spec says that the VPhase can regulate up to 20amps on a short termbasis, but I've never seen 4kW on mine before it bypasses. Practically, thismeans that any 2 high loads (e.g. steam iron + kettle) will send it temporarilyinto bypass. The VPhase is meant to be able to regulate at 8amps continuously(above this it gets too hot and goes into bypass). This seems about correct -on my unit it can regulate a 1.5kW load continuously, at 2kW after about 1 hourthe case temperature is 45+ degrees and the unit goes into bypass for about 10minutes then regulates again for about 40 minutes etc.
Losses in unit:
The spec says the VPhase losses are less than 1%. On my unit at a 2kWregulated load, the unit is consuming about 25W, so this seems about correct.However, it looks like it has a base consumption of about 10W-15W, so even atnight when the 'background' load is about 40W, the VPhase is consuming 25% ofthis.
Energy savings:
Equipment with universal electric motors in(vacuum cleaner, food processor, fridge etc) really do show reduced consumptionin the order of 18-20% (mains at 238-242V vs regulated 219-220V from VPhase).However, that's not the whole story. It's evident (change in pitch when switchbetween the 220 and 240) that the motors are running slower. It doesn't make much difference to how wellthe vacuum cleaner works, but although 'instantaneously' when the fridge/freezermotor is running it shows a 19% improvement, if I monitor the consumption overa week on 220V then on 240V the lower voltage only results in a 5% saving.Presumably because the fridge motor needs to do a certain amount of workcompressing the refrigerant and just runs for longer when the voltage isreduced.
As has been previously said, it makes no difference to any thermostaticallycontrolled heaters, they just run longer, i.e. takes exactlythe same number of Wattsxtime to boil the kettle or toast the bread. It looksthough like the microwave takes about 4% less energy to boil a cup of water at220V (takes a bit longer, but less than 10% longer and power consumption is 15%less).
White goods (dishwasher, washing machine)don't show a significant improvement <5%, I presume because most of energyused is in heating water, which isn't affected by voltage reduction - it's alsodifficult to do a consistent back to back test.
Lights - Most of my lights are LED, and Ican't discern any difference (either in brightness or energy consumption)running at the regulated 220 or 240V but the LEDs' consumption are close to theresolution/sensitivity of my test gear. The few halogens, consume about 15%less but are noticeably dimmer. Interestingly I tried an old (notelectronically regulated) fluorescent strip light and it showed both a 20%consumption improvement and no change in light output.
Electronic goods - Most of the stuff I havehas switch mode PSU (LCD TV, radios, computers, printers etc) and there's onlya very slight improvement running on a regulated 220V certainly less than 5%,seems to be about an average 2%.
Gas boiler - The peak electricity load (CHpump + flue fan) reduced by about 15%, it's possible that the pumps and fansrun longer to compensate, but I couldn't tell.
Conclusion: I've a fairly low electricityconsumption (8kWh per day, house occupied all day), and I make it that theoverall costs are somewhere between -£15 and +£5 (i.e. might cost an extra £5through to saving a maximum of £15), which equates to a maximum possible savingof about 3%. But, for example our lighting consumption is now 10% of that usedcooking, whereas before fitting the LEDs it was nearly the same and the newFridge Freezer uses 1/3 the power of the old one (which was the single biggestconsumer). So I would imagine it's possible if had an older F-F, lots ofhalogen/tungsten or fluorescent lights to see a saving over 5%.
OP
Knobhead
As I’ve said before if someone offers one on trial for free I’d give it a whirl. But I’d be a very sceptical person to convince. The inherent losses are my main concern.
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