EICR Code for working RCD with non-functioning test button

[Vortigern]

much investigation as it reasonable to do.

The OP has not made clear at what stage he is at in the EICR. If he was talking about while doing the EICR, in my view this should have been noted and a code attached. As he asked what code I assume he is in the process, in which case he should not have investigated but just put a code and brought it to the attention of the person ordering the work. After that if the person asked he should have investigated the fault observed. I think as Lucien has elucidated exhaustively the possible mechanism that may cause the trip to operate with the test button it is not within the scope of an electrician to investigate the cause due to this being a step too far for our pay grade. I suppose sending it back to the manufacturer might throw light on it? Or we just take the pragmatic approach of replacing it. It might be that a type A is needed due to hysteresis in the case of the test button not producing enough fault current for all I know, would not be too sure of how to test for that though. I could assay that if there were a number of computers/electronic equipment it could well be the case but that is merely an educated guess.

 

[telectrix]

just wondering if the tests were carried out with all loads removed from RCD. (apologies if this has been said before, but i've not read all posts ).

 

[davesparks]

I would say F.I. and move on. I know a couple of others have suggested this and I agree it seems logical?

What needs investigating? The test button doesn't work, not much to investigate is there?

 

[Vortigern]

What needs investigating?

See post no. 51 and earlier

 

[Dartlec]

The OP has not made clear at what stage he is at in the EICR. If he was talking about while doing the EICR, in my view this should have been noted and a code attached. As he asked what code I assume he is in the process, in which case he should not have investigated but just put a code and brought it to the attention of the person ordering the work. After that if the person asked he should have investigated the fault observed. I think as Lucien has elucidated exhaustively the possible mechanism that may cause the trip to operate with the test button it is not within the scope of an electrician to investigate the cause due to this being a step too far for our pay grade. I suppose sending it back to the manufacturer might throw light on it? Or we just take the pragmatic approach of replacing it. It might be that a type A is needed due to hysteresis in the case of the test button not producing enough fault current for all I know, would not be too sure of how to test for that though. I could assay that if there were a number of computers/electronic equipment it could well be the case but that is merely an educated guess.

The job is a local one to me, for a private landlord (1 property) that I've done some work for before, so I tend to deal with those differently than if it was a letting agency/3rd party, or an hours drive away, when I'd note the relevant code and then move on.

I did the testing and inspection on Thursday and am in the process of putting the report together. The new tenant is not due to move in till the end of the month and is actually the landlord's son, so there is some possibility they will want some work doing before or shortly after he moves in. (The master bedroom currently has 1 double socket)

My thought process was that if I could code the issue as C3 I could issue the satisfactory EICR, but either swap the RCD once the current tenant moves out (it will be empty for a few days), or if they need further work incorporate a new main CU in the job and remove the issue that way.

If the issue is C2, then I will likely hold off issuing the EICR until it's corrected, to avoid the complication of the landlord having to use the EICR and an EIC together in future to prove compliance.

It wasn't possible to completely unplug every device during testing (appropriate LIMs noted), so I may go back once it's empty with an RCD and double check, then swap it out if necessary.

I'm very glad I posted though, as there have been some very helpful and insightful comments and it's always good to know what the general thinking of other electricans is.

It's definitely possible to learn far more from the practical experience and vast knowledge of others than any electrical book - If only most internet forums worked like that

 

[Dartlec]

Just adding a note here for anyone in future who might find it useful.

According to the paperwork I dug out at the job, LAP switchgear was apparently made by Havells, who still exist. There are even some Havells MCBs still available new, and RCDs which look identical.

Looks like they have stopped manufacture though, as lewelectrical claims to have all the remaining UK stock.

I'll likely replace them with a more available brand, but might get someone out of trouble in the future...

 

[suffolkspark]

Just adding a note here for anyone in future who might find it useful.

According to the paperwork I dug out at the job, LAP switchgear was apparently made by Havells, who still exist. There are even some Havells MCBs still available new, and RCDs which look identical.

Looks like they have stopped manufacture though, as lewelectrical claims to have all the remaining UK stock.

I'll likely replace them with a more available brand, but might get someone out of trouble in the future...

Yea bloody havells pulled out of the uk just after I put 6 3 phase boards in a leisure centre ?‍? as it's clearly the same rcd both visually and by your paperwork I'd just grab one off that site

 

[stevethesparks]

Perhaps you could answer that question yourself?
In any event my view is you are not there to repair just report. In order to deal with a non working button you would have to work out why it is not working. For instance I have come across this a few times. Where the RCD did not operate under test or the test button. Puzzled I approached the RCD in question and switched it off manually. After this I found it operated under test and the test button worked. My investigation showed (to me) that due to lack of operation of test button and age/dust/contaminants the mechanism was stuck and manual operation cleared the "stickiness" If it had not worked I would have concluded it was shagged and got a new one. Investigation concluded.

If it fails the first time ie before freeing it - its failed.

 

[Vortigern]

f it fails the first time ie before freeing it - its failed.

so what do you put on your EICR?

 

[stevethesparks]

so what do you put on your EICR?

It would be a C2

 

[Vortigern]

As a matter of interest in the above scenario how would you justify that. What would be the likely danger? The test button does not work what harm can result from that?

 

[Lister1987]

a box is a box. when i shuffle this mortal coil, i don't care if they put me in a £500 coffin with velvet lining, or a plain box made from an old Ikea wardrobe. both will burn at a similar rate.

You're giving them too much credit Tel, Scousers will just use cardboard boxes ?

 

[telectrix]

You're giving them too much credit Tel, Scousers will just use cardboard boxes ?

that's just the posh ones . most Scousers settle for a body bag and a sea burial (dumped in the Mersey on the ebb tide).

 

[snowhead]

I wish I'd bought a pallet of popcorn 2 days ago, I could have made a fortune selling it on this thread..

And I'd have done as Tel on post#13, change everthing in the Lap box

 

[stevethesparks]

As a matter of interest in the above scenario how would you justify that. What would be the likely danger? The test button does not work what harm can result from that?

Well as it would have been tested an FI wouldn't be required.
A C1 is out of the question - unless their were other circumstances.
A C3 would in all honesty be forgotten about - "Improvement recommended" I couldn't live with that if the future failure led to a possible death.
So C2 it is, from then on its out of my hands and up to the person receiving the report to do something about it.
If it stuck once, it will more than likely stick again.
Everyone to their own.

 

[telectrix]

whatever you do, do not bin the RCD with the non working test button, with 65 posts, it has achieved celebrity status and will get a guest invitation to Loose Women,then a knighthood for being absolutely useless.

 

[stevethesparks]

Its the consumers only method of testing such a device. Are they to call an electrician every six months to verify its still working?

 

[suffolkspark]

Its the consumers only method of testing such a device. Are they to call an electrician every six months to verify its still working?

No, it's going to be ignored for 5 years + whichever way

 

[Vortigern]

Well as I said above, I had a sticking test button and the RCD did not work on test. Once I had manually operated it, it worked and has been checked since and still works. Maybe I should have replaced then? After all it was a bit old, Merlin Gerin.

 

[telectrix]

Well as I said above, I had a sticking test button and the RCD did not work on test. Once I had manually operated it, it worked and has been checked since and still works. Maybe I should have replaced then? After all it was a bit old, Merlin Gerin.

just shows that it's important to test by pressing the --- on a regular basis. i still recommend shorter interlvals than 6 months. i have a feeling that the 6 month requirement came in as customers could synchronise it with resetting the clocks twice a year. another case of pandering to numpties above safety.

 

[Risteard]

just shows that it's important to test by pressing the --- on a regular basis. i still recommend shorter interlvals than 6 months. i have a feeling that the 6 month requirement came in as customers could synchronise it with resetting the clocks twice a year. another case of pandering to numpties above safety.

Six monthly is a common recommendation around the world. As you suggest when the clocks change is the logical time to do this. Although if the so-called EU has its way then it's hard to know when to recommend. Not too sure why we had the quarterly recommendation in the past.

 

[pc1966]

Not too sure why we had the quarterly recommendation in the past.

For outdoor ones with a dedicated RCD, or plug adaptors, it was always a case of "test before use" so you have high confidence it is still working.

So presumably it started with a debate on how long between testing for board-mounted RCDs to gave acceptable fault detection given the move from dedicated outdoor sockets/adaptors to the widespread use of them on all domestic socket circuits. I have seen some RCDs that say test monthly, but that is just not going to be done, and other say "test regularly" but don't always say what that means (to give wriggle room in court?).