3 core - what colour do you use as a switch wire?

[smity]

I personally use the black as I see brown as a permanent live. What do you use and why?

 

[Tuttle]

Black as well, because it's in the middle, so you can easily cut the strappers on either side and leave the black unbroken if you want to, for an intermediate switch

 

[SJD]

Grey - because I equate black with neutral in the old colours (and still prefer to use it as such if a neutral is required), and I equate brown with permanent live.

 

[Guitarist]

Recommendations are to use grey as sleeved neutral now (how I do it), in order to get us away from thinking of black that way. Not critical though, just as long as they are sleeved at both ends.

 

[mougsy]

it makes sence for all, to use Brown as Perm, Black for Neutral and grey for switching

 

[Outspoken]

BROWN = Permanent Live

BLACK = Switched Live where Required or Strapper 1 on two way circuits (Sleeved with a section of Brown over-sleeve)

GREY = Neutral where required or Strapper 2 on two way circuits. (Sleeved with a section of Black/Brown over-sleeve as appropriate)

Where a 3 core is used on a single phase circuit (not necessarily lighting)

BROWN = LIVE

GREY = NEUTRAL

BLACK = CPC (Sleeved Green/Yellow)

 

[telectrix]

as above. use grey as N is standard practice to disassociate the black from neutral, thanks to the meddling of johnny foreigner. as for 2 way switching, back in the days of sensible cable colours, most of us used the yellow for common and R/B for strappers so that in the switch with the switch wire from the light, you has red with red and blue with black. this equates to black for yellow, brown for red and grey for black

 

[James Anderson]

I use the black for switching. Don't know why just habit I suppose.

 

[KoFi]

I totally agree with tREV

THINK THERE WAS guidance literature prior to harmonisation of colours in cable !

 

[stuartcourt]

as above. use grey as N is standard practice to disassociate the black from neutral, thanks to the meddling of johnny foreigner. as for 2 way switching, back in the days of sensible cable colours, most of us used the yellow for common and R/B for strappers so that in the switch with the switch wire from the light, you has red with red and blue with black. this equates to black for yellow, brown for red and grey for black

down here we used the red as common, sometimes come across the yellow used as it but not much

 

[Octopus]

Black sleeved with brown!

 

[stuartcourt]

your all wrong if you look closely you will find a shiney core they forgot to sleeve, bit of brown or tape or whatever and hey presto a switch wire

 

[KoFi]

red yellow ? red was ALWAYS common in the good old days!

 

[telectrix]

not where i've been. generally yellow for common.

 

[telectrix]

not where i've been. generally yellow for common. but then most of us knew that the blue wasn't neutral in 2 way switching. not like some of these young sprogs today.

 

[KoFi]

not where i've been. generally yellow for common.

North / South/west of Warrington divide thing must be m8

 

[telectrix]

something to do with the water in yorkshire. we only allow what we don't want to blow over the ridge.

 

[Sharpend]

I had heard that the reason for harmonisation was to get
away from red being used as it is classed as a 'Dangerous' colour, it clearly worked as now every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks they can do electrics.
Still black as switch, grey as neutral.

 

[itdontgo]

What did you do with the old non harmonised colour scheme? Before my time

 

[specs]

Brown = perm live, Black= sw/live Grey=neutral,

 

[Edd]

as msg 6. any other way is a deviation. grey is the old black. im sure its wrighten somwhere.. but im on the beer again, and the chance of finding the page is as good as zero

 

[Adam W]

Ah, this old chestnut.

Black (sleeved brown) as permanent live, because that's how flex 7, rock etc flexes come pre-wired, and because you use brown as switched live everywhere else where you haven't got a permanent live so it keeps it consistent.
Brown as switched live as you usually would if there weren't a permanent live.
Grey (sleeved blue) as neutral.

Also because 4 core flex comes with brown, black, blue, and green & yellow.
Black as Auxiliary live.

Brown as L1 with the feed (also brown) so browns go together.
Grey as L2 (sleeved brown) with the switched live (blue, sleeved brown)
Black (sleeved brown) because it's the other one.

 

[Johnmoh]

Was told at time of harmonisation to get away from using black as neutral we had to "deneutralise the black" if that's even a word!!

 

[telectrix]

when doing em and normal lighting mixed, it's usually black (sleeved) for perm., brown for switched.

 

[Redvanman]

Brown permanent live.
black switch line.
grey switch linear neutral.
harmonisation did state not to use back as neutral any more so that it did not get confused with old black neutrals therefore you had in old 3 phase boards black and greys as neutrals. That wouldn't confuse any body would it.
also I was taught on a 2way switch if you follow the circuit through the switch in the off position then the grey would actually be a neutral.
check it out it s true via the lamp

 

[44ALLAN]

"harmonisation" did state not to use back as neutral any more !!!

Did he..............where?
Is this harmony guy still on the tools...........so to speak?

And I take it you meant black not back

 

[telectrix]

Brown permanent live.
black switch line.
grey switch linear neutral.
harmonisation did state not to use back as neutral any more so that it did not get confused with old black neutrals therefore you had in old 3 phase boards black and greys as neutrals. That wouldn't confuse any body would it.
also I was taught on a 2way switch if you follow the circuit through the switch in the off position then the grey would actually be a neutral.
check it out it s true via the lamp

how can grey be a neutral in 2 way switching when they're all live or switched live?

 

[telectrix]

Ah, this old chestnut.

Black (sleeved brown) as permanent live, because that's how flex 7, rock etc flexes come pre-wired, and because you use brown as switched live everywhere else where you haven't got a permanent live so it keeps it consistent.
Brown as switched live as you usually would if there weren't a permanent live.
Grey (sleeved blue) as neutral.

Also because 4 core flex comes with brown, black, blue, and green & yellow.
Black as Auxiliary live.

Brown as L1 with the feed (also brown) so browns go together.
Grey as L2 (sleeved brown) with the switched live (blue, sleeved brown)
Black (sleeved brown) because it's the other one.

exactly. greg flexes come pre-wired in that exact way. so black as perm L.

 

[Redvanman]

how can grey be a neutral in 2 way switching when they're all live or switched live?

Draw out the circuit including the lamp. Back trace the neutral through the lamp to the switch and when the switch is off the grey is connected to neutral. Image the lamp s a link not a load.
i know it's barmey but in some weird way it makes sense lol

 

[7029 dave]

im a red man sorry old colours ha ha wat does it matter common and strappers should be sleeved anyway

 

[thomas-1981]

Cable colours - IET Electrical Check out the flyer pdf. Black is not neutral.

 

[44ALLAN]

Cable colours - IET Electrical Check out the flyer pdf. Black is not neutral.

Who said Black was Neutral?
Blue is Neutral we all know that !!!

 

[Adam W]

So who can come up with any kind of argument for using black as switched live and brown as permanent, other than 'that's what you do'?

 

[thomas-1981]

Who said Black was Neutral?
Blue is Neutral we all know that !!!

Check out posts #3 & #5

 

[44ALLAN]

Check out posts #3 & #5

Ahhh but your missing the whole point thomas .......if you don't mind me saying.
As long as it's sleeved the same colour (at both ends) it won't be a black anymore..........it'll be blue if used as a neutral

 

[Fast&Rough]

I bought alot of r,y,b and red and black cable for cheap a few years ago and still install it . I'm such a rebel

 

[Tuttle]

I bought alot of r,y,b and red and black cable for cheap a few years ago and still install it . I'm such a rebel

Do you sleeve it brown, or red?

 

[SJD]

Check out posts #3 & #5

Ahhh but your missing the whole point thomas .......if you don't mind me saying.
As long as it's sleeved the same colour (at both ends) it won't be a black anymore..........it'll be blue if used as a neutral

As poster #3, of course I sleeve a neutral with blue, and a switched live with brown - and at both ends!

I checked my BS7671 and OSG, there didn't seem to be anything I could find to say it was wrong to be using the black in a 3-core brown/grey/black cable for neutral, so long as it is sleeved blue. Not sure if various bits of guidance around the time of the change over suggesting we should not do this carry any weight. But I'm happy to change if someone can point out a regulation or best practice I've overlooked.

 

[ian.settle1]

Ah, this old chestnut.

Black (sleeved brown) as permanent live, because that's how flex 7, rock etc flexes come pre-wired, and because you use brown as switched live everywhere else where you haven't got a permanent live so it keeps it consistent.
Brown as switched live as you usually would if there weren't a permanent live.
Grey (sleeved blue) as neutral.

Also because 4 core flex comes with brown, black, blue, and green & yellow.
Black as Auxiliary live.

Brown as L1 with the feed (also brown) so browns go together.
Grey as L2 (sleeved brown) with the switched live (blue, sleeved brown)
Black (sleeved brown) because it's the other one.

Going to say that myself as when you get pre wired kliks/gregs the black is normally the permanent live

 

[44ALLAN]

As poster #3, of course I sleeve a neutral with blue, and a switched live with brown - and at both ends!

I checked my BS7671 and OSG, there didn't seem to be anything I could find to say it was wrong to be using the black in a 3-core brown/grey/black cable for neutral, so long as it is sleeved blue. Not sure if various bits of guidance around the time of the change over suggesting we should not do this carry any weight. But I'm happy to change if someone can point out a regulation or best practice I've overlooked.

My sentiments exactly mate

 

[Eddiesparks]

Interesting point - surely black and grey, if used as strappers, dont need to be sleeved or taped brown as they are two of the possible three 'live' colours?!?! Is this wrong?!

 

[telectrix]

Interesting point - surely black and grey, if used as strappers, dont need to be sleeved or taped brown as they are two of the possible three 'live' colours?!?! Is this wrong?!

used to have same argument with red/yellow/blue. general opinion was treat any cable as live unless proved otherwise. sadly common sense is out the window these days, and we have to allow for idiots.

 

[Eddiesparks]

I'm with you but grey black brown are ALL BS7671 LIVE colours. Ok as strappers they are not three phase l1 l2 l3 but they are live colours. Not 'any colours' if you see what i mean mate.

 

[CTID]

In the end it falls into good practice and again shows the lack of clear definition in the regs. I don't see any issue with anyone using black or brown for permanent live, my personal choice is brown for perm, black for switched.
Where the lack of guidance shows up is on big sites with multiple sparks working on the same installation. It means that rather than being able to just get in and do the job, you are going around asking the colour codes that they have been using.
For example, I had to go around and fit some timer switches, all other accessories wired and fixed back so no visible wiring Barr for the cable I was to terminate, a three core. I spoke to the spark on site who informed me that brown was permanent live. I therefore went and terminated all 300 switches with brown as permanent. When it came to energisation it became apparent that 200 or so weren't working, the reason, another spark, now on holiday, had been on site and wired black as perm as this was what he always did, this obviously unknown until so many didn't work, thus a lot more work created putting right.
I understand we use sleeving to identify wiring, however we should also have a standard set as to what we use for perm or switch, neutral, etc, so that confusion is to a minimum.

 

[Eddiesparks]

In the end it falls into good practice and again shows the lack of clear definition in the regs. I don't see any issue with anyone using black or brown for permanent live, my personal choice is brown for perm, black for switched.
Where the lack of guidance shows up is on big sites with multiple sparks working on the same installation. It means that rather than being able to just get in and do the job, you are going around asking the colour codes that they have been using.
For example, I had to go around and fit some timer switches, all other accessories wired and fixed back so no visible wiring Barr for the cable I was to terminate, a three core. I spoke to the spark on site who informed me that brown was permanent live. I therefore went and terminated all 300 switches with brown as permanent. When it came to energisation it became apparent that 200 or so weren't working, the reason, another spark, now on holiday, had been on site and wired black as perm as this was what he always did, this obviously unknown until so many didn't work, thus a lot more work created putting right.
I understand we use sleeving to identify wiring, however we should also have a standard set as to what we use for perm or switch, neutral, etc, so that confusion is to a minimum.

My word, that would be well annoying!! I use brown perm and black switched. And then grey to link the commons.

 

[KAS1]

Good job they don't "have a guess" at 5/10/20 pair or more Blue instrument cables I've seen that done where a so called spark makes his own colour code up on a site, caused many a problem at commissioning time lol

 

[Fast&Rough]

Sleaving ? whats that

 

[Amp David]

I personally use the black as I see brown as a permanent live. What do you use and why?

I use both black and grey sleeved brown for me 2 ways

 

[FUSEServices]

your all wrong if you look closely you will find a shiney core they forgot to sleeve, bit of brown or tape or whatever and hey presto a switch wire

That's the "special" switch wire only to be used by plumbers or should I say self professed "heating engineers"!!

 

[FUSEServices]

I cannot believe that my apprentices tutor at college (Leeds college of Building) is actually teaching his students to use black as neutral with a blue sleeve and grey for switched wire or strapper in a 3 core cable 2-way circuit.

He is adamant he is right and my apprentice is worried he will fail his exam as I have told him I NEVER want to see a black wire used as a neutral in any of our work.....EVER!

There is no sense in this at all.