OP
sedgy34
Well I'm going the wood burner route a plumber told me they are only £300 for a 5 kw so cheap as chips really and I would think a dot and dabb wall would be ok as long as the wood burner is fitted correctly
-
Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
Search the forum,
S
Well I'm going the wood burner route a plumber told me they are only £300 for a 5 kw so cheap as chips really and I would think a dot and dabb wall would be ok as long as the wood burner is fitted correctly
F
L
still you should set it to 60c at least, better safe then sorry
your more likely just wasting heat in the pipes with the dishwasher connected to the hot side, by the time its got to the dishwasher or close to it it would of filled the dishwasher up (78c seems bit hot for an dishwasher, Industrial one?)
that's why most dishwashers and washing machines are norm cold only now as they use far less water then older machines, the time it takes to fire up the combi or get the water from the tank to the dishwasher/washing machine the combi would of fired up for no reason or loss of heat in the tank (i may have repeated that an little just more detailed)
S
Believe that when you see it, just like the RHI that was supposed to start in 2010.
Happy to discuss tomorrow when i've not had a few, but the figures don't add up for anything else.
On the wood burning subject just remember to consider smoke free zones which will mean that most built up areas will not permit you to burn a lot of wood's and other smokey fuels.
RHI will not be available for any of the renewable technologies with the exception of solar thermal if you have a mains gas supply. Currently solar thermal does not pay back well for a domestic property on mains gas, usually 30+ year payback rates.
Like it or not, gas is still the best option for many both economically and environmentally.
L
M
Ahh, but you are not taking into account the fact Im ---- enough to run the hot water tap till it comes warm, then switch the dishwasher on.... My reasoning is I have a tankful of hot water, so why pay any more electricity to heat up cold water when I can supply 55 degree (ish) water to the dishwasher so it only needs to heat it up another 20 degrees as opposed to a full 60 degrees plus.
Its a Miele, and Im lying - its 76 degrees for the pots and pans cycle.
S
S
Of course if you had an energy management system you wouldn't be paying for all that hot water to sit there in the first place ;-)
M
S
J
Everyone will be able to install an electric boiler which have been around for years
S
M
But personally Im not convinced. In the same way I baulked at the chap who came to price up the PV system who suggested I rip out my gas fire and replace it with a fan heater. Fine up to a point, but when I want heat from the fire is usually at night in winter (ie when the sun isnt shining and Im not producing power from the PV).
Its something I will keep an eye on, as I could be a lot more flexible in the positioning of the boiler not being restricted by gas supply and exhaust positions. Possibly if we embrace renewables and nuclear power more within the UK we might see a wholesale fall in energy prices - after all if every house had even a 2kW system, Im sure the amount exported during the day would enable a marked reduction in the amount of power generated and thus fuel used by the energy generators. Hopefully that might have a knock on effect to domestic prices charged.
S
J
Well if the government finally put the domestic rhi into place then I can really see biomass taking off, already in place for commercial pr
M
Log burners are another alternative, but most people would want something fairly minimal maintainece and able to give them heat at the flick of a switch (rather than getting up early to light the fire and wait for it to heat the water for a shower), which is where we go back to Biomass and wood pellets fed from a hopper... And then we have issues with most 1970's onwards built houses having limited space for the size of install needed.
Thats where something like an electric boiler could really come in to its own. But only if the cost per unit to generate the heat and hot water needed for a house was comparable with natural gas.
I dont think there is a single answer that would fit all properties.
Well thats my thoughts anyway.
S
Did I miss something? Why would you pay 7.6p/kwh for lpg when you get natural gas for 4.2p/kwh?
S
S
J
One of my electrical contractor customers installs a heat recovery system on every new build property, it's a struggle to keep up with him!
J
My I ask you to google biomass payback calculator, and compare it against oil or lpg, when I have run through the figures, it is 50 per cent cheaper to run.
If you need a competitive price list for biomass systems (from 15kw upwards) then drop me a message with your email address.
Jason
S
S
J
Now sorted, thanks :wink5:
H
F
Regarding gas v electric: I think that once the gas has been burned to produce heat, and after the heat losses through the exhaust and from pipework, that rather than electriciy being about 2.5x the cost of gas, it is closer to 1.7x the cost.
So if solar PV can provide about half of the power needs, it effectively becomes slightly cheaper than gas.
S
Discuss 9% increase on gas and elec in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
Well I'm going the wood burner route a plumber told me they are only £300 for a 5 kw so cheap as chips really and I would think a dot and dabb wall would be ok as long as the wood burner is fitted correctly
OP
finewine
Great to see interest in woodburning stoves as part of the whole picture. I run a company that supplies and installs woodburning stoves, both wet and dry. First thing i would say is never buy cheap. There are literally hundreds of cheap chinese stoves available on the internet and i have to say that most are either cheap imitations or making false claims with regards to performance. Buy well known tested products from established shop based companies. Basic cost for a good boiler stove, output around 8kw (6 radiators + hot water) is going to be 1200 pounds and then you need tp think about liner and installation of stove (around 1300 pounds) , suitable plumbing to meet current regs ( 500 to 2000 pounds) and then finally full certification by a hetas engineer who has taken the wet course who can sign off the work. Generally min cost of 3500 and to 5000 or more depending on plumbing work. Hope this helps, Nick
OP
leexgx
still you should set it to 60c at least, better safe then sorry your more likely just wasting heat in the pipes with the dishwasher connected to the hot side, by the time its got to the dishwasher or close to it it would of filled the dishwasher up (78c seems bit hot for an dishwasher, Industrial one?)
that's why most dishwashers and washing machines are norm cold only now as they use far less water then older machines, the time it takes to fire up the combi or get the water from the tank to the dishwasher/washing machine the combi would of fired up for no reason or loss of heat in the tank (i may have repeated that an little
just more detailed)
OP
sambotc
Believe that when you see it, just like the RHI that was supposed to start in 2010.
Happy to discuss tomorrow when i've not had a few, but the figures don't add up for anything else.
On the wood burning subject just remember to consider smoke free zones which will mean that most built up areas will not permit you to burn a lot of wood's and other smokey fuels.
RHI will not be available for any of the renewable technologies with the exception of solar thermal if you have a mains gas supply. Currently solar thermal does not pay back well for a domestic property on mains gas, usually 30+ year payback rates.
Like it or not, gas is still the best option for many both economically and environmentally.
OP
leexgx
will we have gas for that long
OP
MicraShed
Ahh, but you are not taking into account the fact Im ---- enough to run the hot water tap till it comes warm, then switch the dishwasher on.... My reasoning is I have a tankful of hot water, so why pay any more electricity to heat up cold water when I can supply 55 degree (ish) water to the dishwasher so it only needs to heat it up another 20 degrees as opposed to a full 60 degrees plus.
Its a Miele, and Im lying - its 76 degrees for the pots and pans cycle.
OP
sambotc
Code 6 houses should almost eliminate the need for heating completely but there is a lot of work to do in 4 years for that to become the norm. I would imagine some form of electric will be used for supplementary heating when required and hot water which, unless produced entirely from a renewable technology, will produce over twice the amount of co2 per kwh compared to burning gas.
For the rest of the population in an existing property with a mains supply, there's nothing currently available worth swapping too.
For the rest of the population in an existing property with a mains supply, there's nothing currently available worth swapping too.
OP
SRE
Of course if you had an energy management system you wouldn't be paying for all that hot water to sit there in the first place ;-)
OP
moggy1968
the lack of air circulation in these new houses bothers me, I can't see such a lack of air being healthy
OP
sedgy34
Some new houses have heat recovery systems
OP
Jaycee
Everyone will be able to install an electric boiler which have been around for years
OP
sedgy34
Thinking about it I maybe able to feed my oven with bottled gas as I've a pantry behind my kitchen but depending on the price of the bottled gas could be cheaper and install a log burner and underfloor heating got to be a money spinner
OP
MicraShed
Do you think electric boilers have a viable future as gas/oil boiler alternatives? I suppose if the unit cost of electricity reduces or if people can generate sufficient themselves via micro generation on site then they might have a viable future.
But personally Im not convinced. In the same way I baulked at the chap who came to price up the PV system who suggested I rip out my gas fire and replace it with a fan heater. Fine up to a point, but when I want heat from the fire is usually at night in winter (ie when the sun isnt shining and Im not producing power from the PV).
Its something I will keep an eye on, as I could be a lot more flexible in the positioning of the boiler not being restricted by gas supply and exhaust positions. Possibly if we embrace renewables and nuclear power more within the UK we might see a wholesale fall in energy prices - after all if every house had even a 2kW system, Im sure the amount exported during the day would enable a marked reduction in the amount of power generated and thus fuel used by the energy generators. Hopefully that might have a knock on effect to domestic prices charged.
OP
sedgy34
There's always biomass and wood burners
OP
Jaycee
Well if the government finally put the domestic rhi into place then I can really see biomass taking off, already in place for commercial pr
OP
MicraShed
I think this has been touched upon already elsewhere in the forum, but Biomass has limitations due to the size of the boilers and hoppers/stores and also in the production of fuel should everyone in the UK suddenly switch to biomass heating.
Log burners are another alternative, but most people would want something fairly minimal maintainece and able to give them heat at the flick of a switch (rather than getting up early to light the fire and wait for it to heat the water for a shower), which is where we go back to Biomass and wood pellets fed from a hopper... And then we have issues with most 1970's onwards built houses having limited space for the size of install needed.
Thats where something like an electric boiler could really come in to its own. But only if the cost per unit to generate the heat and hot water needed for a house was comparable with natural gas.
I dont think there is a single answer that would fit all properties.
Well thats my thoughts anyway.
OP
SRE
Did I miss something? Why would you pay 7.6p/kwh for lpg when you get natural gas for 4.2p/kwh?
OP
sedgy34
Yes the bit you missed was "depending on the price"
- Reaction score
- 516
Best Solution? Here's my tuppence:
Solar PV, Solar Thermal, Wood Burner, big thermal store, might even need a thermal dump - we've had to do that for one customer !! possibly backed up with either a gas or calor gas fired boiler or ashp...
Could also consider Thermodynamic solar panels.
There are now ashp's and solar thermal systems with high enough output (65 degree) even in winter to retrofit existing heating systems without having to replace all the radiators...
Solar PV, Solar Thermal, Wood Burner, big thermal store, might even need a thermal dump - we've had to do that for one customer !! possibly backed up with either a gas or calor gas fired boiler or ashp...
Could also consider Thermodynamic solar panels.
There are now ashp's and solar thermal systems with high enough output (65 degree) even in winter to retrofit existing heating systems without having to replace all the radiators...
OP
sambotc
Hang on a minute though, we are talking (unless i am mistaken, if so i apologise in advance) about removing a mains gas boiler/system and replacing with biomass?
The cost of a biomass system will never, ever, ever repay with out RHI (which you would not be entitled too if you have a mains gas supply).
There are some serious issues/debate taking place at the moment about the air quality affects of biomass, particularly in built up areas.
I am all for biomass taking a percentage of the oil/lpg market which is why I have trained to be able to offer it amongst other technologies, but we are never going to be in a position where it is a viable alternative for replacing a mains gas boiler. As I said before, at present nothing available is, which is why I can see the logic in not making RHI payments available to properties with a minas gas supply (with the exception of solar thermal)
The cost of a biomass system will never, ever, ever repay with out RHI (which you would not be entitled too if you have a mains gas supply).
There are some serious issues/debate taking place at the moment about the air quality affects of biomass, particularly in built up areas.
I am all for biomass taking a percentage of the oil/lpg market which is why I have trained to be able to offer it amongst other technologies, but we are never going to be in a position where it is a viable alternative for replacing a mains gas boiler. As I said before, at present nothing available is, which is why I can see the logic in not making RHI payments available to properties with a minas gas supply (with the exception of solar thermal)
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
Jaycee
One of my electrical contractor customers installs a heat recovery system on every new build property, it's a struggle to keep up with him!
OP
Jaycee
My I ask you to google biomass payback calculator, and compare it against oil or lpg, when I have run through the figures, it is 50 per cent cheaper to run.
If you need a competitive price list for biomass systems (from 15kw upwards) then drop me a message with your email address.
Jason
OP
sambotc
Mains gas, we are talking about mains gas are we not!? I believe the conversation was started as microshed was enquiring about ripping out his mains gas heating boiler to replace with an electric boiler so that the P.V would contribute?
according to a quick google as it is to late to do the sums myself after the day i've had.
natural gas (mains) 4.2p/kwh
heating oil 6.0p/kwh
bulk lpg 7.6p/kwh
electricity 14.5p/kwh
wood pellets 4.2p/kwh
wood chip 2.9p/kwh
We can discount wood chip for domestic, so wood pellet is marginally cheaper than mains gas. However the installation costs are far, far higher than mains gas. The maintenance costs are also much higher, both annual and potential breakdown costs.
Oil and LPG, I agree as per my above post, although it is fairly obvious to see by the current market position that domestic biomass requires the incentives of the RHI in order for it to take off in a volume, especially if an existing appliance is already present at the property.
I can't see you getting much change out of £8k for a simple hand loaded biomass set up for a reputable but not top end MCS approved smoke zone exempt appliance, chimney system and controls, plus certification etc more for automated feed/hooper. Replacing an existing oil boiler with a new condensing type probably £2k so the RHI is a must until the technology is better acknowledged by the consumer (even though its been used for years on the continent)
I am also slightly sceptical about the potential price increase in wood pellets in a few years. Personally if I had the space and spare time I would look at a log gasification boiler and accumulator.
according to a quick google as it is to late to do the sums myself after the day i've had.
natural gas (mains) 4.2p/kwh
heating oil 6.0p/kwh
bulk lpg 7.6p/kwh
electricity 14.5p/kwh
wood pellets 4.2p/kwh
wood chip 2.9p/kwh
We can discount wood chip for domestic, so wood pellet is marginally cheaper than mains gas. However the installation costs are far, far higher than mains gas. The maintenance costs are also much higher, both annual and potential breakdown costs.
Oil and LPG, I agree as per my above post, although it is fairly obvious to see by the current market position that domestic biomass requires the incentives of the RHI in order for it to take off in a volume, especially if an existing appliance is already present at the property.
I can't see you getting much change out of £8k for a simple hand loaded biomass set up for a reputable but not top end MCS approved smoke zone exempt appliance, chimney system and controls, plus certification etc more for automated feed/hooper. Replacing an existing oil boiler with a new condensing type probably £2k so the RHI is a must until the technology is better acknowledged by the consumer (even though its been used for years on the continent)
I am also slightly sceptical about the potential price increase in wood pellets in a few years. Personally if I had the space and spare time I would look at a log gasification boiler and accumulator.
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
sambotc
Jaycee your inbox is full
OP
Jaycee
Jaycee your inbox is full
Now sorted, thanks :wink5:
OP
Hundleton1
Funny since prices have been going up iv been thinking about the possibility of building a generator that runs on natural gas from a small car engine, which would be water-cooled that would then dump heat into a cylinder or heating system, also be air cooled with heat exchangers taking even more waste heat into the home, the unit could be load regulated and produce as required, realistically a 6kwh generator could run the whole house as long as consideration is taken to multiple high wattage being used.
the problem i have come across is i have no idea the consumption of an engine is on gas, may or may not be a feasible idea.
the problem i have come across is i have no idea the consumption of an engine is on gas, may or may not be a feasible idea.
OP
FB.
Regarding gas v electric: I think that once the gas has been burned to produce heat, and after the heat losses through the exhaust and from pipework, that rather than electriciy being about 2.5x the cost of gas, it is closer to 1.7x the cost.
So if solar PV can provide about half of the power needs, it effectively becomes slightly cheaper than gas.
OP
sedgy34
I've just had my 2nd fit payment of £453 so this is going towards my wood burner I'm having lol
Reply to 9% increase on gas and elec in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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