To the right person, I would make it worth someone's time for a couple of hours of face to face instruction when I got there. I have over 34 years of electrical experience over a wide range of avenues. I will be coming to Scotland the 2d week of September. Would enjoy exchanging a few back and forth messages with some of you
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For electrics here are a few that I can think of:
You do see 110V (as two-phase 55V-0V-55V) with yellow connectors on building sites for added safety, and occasionally 230V-0V-230V on rural properties, but generally if you need above 100A / 230V you get 3-phase here (400V delta / 230V wye) except for very large sites with private transformers where you might see 690V/400V 3-phase or event MV systems at 3.3kV or more.
The UK also likes fuses. Not just in our 13A plugs, but most installations have HRC fuses at the incomer and even MV motors, etc, often have fuses for fault protection. Related to this we have less of a focus on arc-flash energy limits, etc. Yes, it is still an issue on big sites but you won't see labels on everything warning you of energy levels as is see in the USA. It still pays to have a visor, gloves, etc, if working on big stuff as even with the energy limiting of fuses it can make for a VERY bad day.
As mentioned above, usually we treat light circuits as distinct from "power". Occasionally for something simple like a garage you might feed the lights off a 20A power socket circuit using a Fused Connection Unit (FCU) which is usually a switch and a fuse in the 3-13A region (3A typically for lights).
Normally we have the RCD/RCBO protecting the whole circuit (i.e. protective device is in the CU), not like the USA with GFCI/AFCI at the sockets themselves, but you do occasionally see RCD protected sockets here.
Due to our fused plugs and limited power demands it was common in old houses to maybe have just 3 circuits, cooker (30A), sockets (30A), and lights (5A) but today you would expect at least two light circuits and two socket circuits in most places, along with a few dedicated circuits like immersion heater, etc.
Also as @DPG mentioned we have a strong emphasis on testing, both:
Over current protection and also earth leakage protection.
Do you have a calibrated tester available or will you be hiring one?
In the UK the only legal requirement is to be "electrically competent" but if anything goes wrong then of course folks will be checking for proof that those involved were. Usually that is a combination of education/exams, practical experience, and having the tools needed (including the current wiring regulations book). There are some competent person schemes that serve to check and register folks (such as SELECT in Scotland, NICEIC, etc) to make it easier, but that is more common for domestic work than commercial/industrial.
There are two statuary regulations I can think of that basically cover electrical safety for most LV systems (some industries have specific rules that differ such as railways, mining, nuclear, etc):
That guidance is useful for point #9 (my emphasis) in the list:
BS 7671 is a code of practice which is widely recognised and accepted in the UK and compliance with it is likely to achieve compliance with relevant aspects of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989
BS 7671 "Requirements for Electrical Installations, IET Wiring Regulations, Eighteenth Edition" is our "regs" also referred to as BBB (big brown book) and is equivalent to your NEC. It is not a legal document as such, and is updated and amended separately from the law which has not changed for some time. Note the legal guidance says "likely to achieve compliance" as the regs are the minimum standard and you can find odd situations where you might need to go beyond them to actually meet the law's goals for safety.
But in addition to the laws mentioned above you also have the building regulations and they differ slightly between 3 legislative regions of the UK: Scotland, England & Wales, and Northern Ireland. The Scottish ones are here, one for domestic properties, and one for others:
The whole thing is massive (550 pages as PDF download) and electricity is only a small section of what they cover, but the web version is not too difficult to find the related sections in:
www.gov.scot
But you get other sections such as 4.8.5 here covering switch locations:
www.gov.scot
Discuss A retired Yank from Nebraska is coming to Edinburgh on a mission trip in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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I’m in Scottish Borders, about an hour south of Edinburgh. Glad to be of any help, if I can.
Ps, we drive on the left over here
Ps, we drive on the left over here
I always wondered why the steering wheel was on the wrong side of the vechicle
That's funny, because it would have to be the whole hotel not just the room. Just looking to discuss the few differences between the European loop system and the North American branch system
I will be in Edinburgh on the 7th and 8th of September, before I head north to the project.
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So what is the project?
The big difference is that we separate the outlets from the lighting circuits….
Is it “loop” as in “ loop in” lighting? Also known as 3-plate?
Your “branch” circuits will be called “radial” here
The big difference is that we separate the outlets from the lighting circuits….
Is it “loop” as in “ loop in” lighting? Also known as 3-plate?
Your “branch” circuits will be called “radial” here
I'm guessing the 'loop' mentioned by @gskrusen is our Ring Final Circuit?
It is very different to most of the world due to us having fused plugs, and so we can have 32A (or more, e.g. 45A cooker socket) feeds to the sockets independently of the size of appliance cable, etc. The RFC is really a copper-saving way to do that, and over a wider area, compared to the radial circuit.
A recent debate covered here:
www.electriciansforums.net
It is very different to most of the world due to us having fused plugs, and so we can have 32A (or more, e.g. 45A cooker socket) feeds to the sockets independently of the size of appliance cable, etc. The RFC is really a copper-saving way to do that, and over a wider area, compared to the radial circuit.
A recent debate covered here:
Ring Final Circuit (RFC) versus Radial. Yes, again.
This is a topic that comes up a lot and seems to attract near-religious levels of fever in how folks argue over the choice of circuit for UK sockets. However, often the arguments are ill-informed or they veer off in to pointless corners, or sometimes get personal. This is my attempt to put a lot...
www.electriciansforums.net
There are a few folks on here from Scotland, and can meet up depending on what you are doing, or you might want to call in to see some on your way depending on travel arrangements.
Edinburgh is an excellent place for a short stay (assuming you can afford the hotel cost!) as it has lots to do and a good range of historic buildings. Glasgow is also a good place to visit, has more of an industrial/trade history compared to Edinburgh (was more government/banking/etc) and also a wide range of touristy stuff to see and place to eat.
The other significant cities going north (Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness) are all OK but a step down in terms of tourism.
However, one aspect that is worth doing as a counter-point to the cities is a visit to some of the highlands for the scenery. The A9 road (or taking the train) north from Perth to Inverness gives you a good view, but its a tedious road at times and also a bit dangerous as it flips from single carriageway to dual carriageway (with the opposite pair invisible at times) multiple times making overtaking, etc, a danger. Add to that lots of obscure junctions and you can see why its high accident rate has been a sore point for duelling for years.
Of course many other scenic options depending on your time, areas of interest, and itinerary, are available. The west highland rail from Glasgow to Mallaig is another good option, but you really need to stay over as not practical to go there and back in one day.
Weather is always unpredictable, assume any of the 4 seasons (possibly more than one) will occur on any given day!
Edinburgh is an excellent place for a short stay (assuming you can afford the hotel cost!) as it has lots to do and a good range of historic buildings. Glasgow is also a good place to visit, has more of an industrial/trade history compared to Edinburgh (was more government/banking/etc) and also a wide range of touristy stuff to see and place to eat.
The other significant cities going north (Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness) are all OK but a step down in terms of tourism.
However, one aspect that is worth doing as a counter-point to the cities is a visit to some of the highlands for the scenery. The A9 road (or taking the train) north from Perth to Inverness gives you a good view, but its a tedious road at times and also a bit dangerous as it flips from single carriageway to dual carriageway (with the opposite pair invisible at times) multiple times making overtaking, etc, a danger. Add to that lots of obscure junctions and you can see why its high accident rate has been a sore point for duelling for years.
Of course many other scenic options depending on your time, areas of interest, and itinerary, are available. The west highland rail from Glasgow to Mallaig is another good option, but you really need to stay over as not practical to go there and back in one day.
Weather is always unpredictable, assume any of the 4 seasons (possibly more than one) will occur on any given day!
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Or if you want the middle of nowhere, with a duel carriageway, a vast array of farm machinery on the roads, and no one around for miles on end…
Welcome to the borders.
Oh…. We’ve got castles.
Welcome to the borders.
Oh…. We’ve got castles.
I did 2 weeks work in Edinburgh last year, great place but very expensive, nearest place we could find to stay that was affordable was across the bridge in Aberdour which was quite nice as well.
We even managed a day on the lash on the Saturday in the city centre.
We even managed a day on the lash on the Saturday in the city centre.
Yes in my research that is one of things I learned that lighting and outlets are separate. There are several language differences such as the radial reference, but we are both talking about the same thing. We are converting a small cottage into a large kitchen for a Christian youth camp. So they can feed all the kids as they stay there for the week. There will be blue prints and inspections. They are running a larger feeder cable underground to the cottage as we speak.
Thank you so much for that information. I have a place to stay about an hour north of Edinburgh, where I will stay for the 10 days I am there. I am coming to Scotland on a working mission trip. Won't have much time to sight see.
It would great if you or someone you know could help me out. I will have transportation when I arrive. Our team of missionary workers are doing a build about an hour north of Edinburgh. I am the Electrician of the group. I'm waiting right now for my revised blue prints. I plan on having at least two more online chats with the architects. There is some preliminary work going on right now as we speak. I would just make me more comfortable being a little more informed on the electricial that's the same but called something else there.
The difference between UK & USA English is subtle and large at the same time.
For electrics here are a few that I can think of:
- panel = Distribution Board (DB) for commercial, or Consumer Unit (CU) for domestic work.
- breaker = Miniature Circuit Breaker (MCB) for small systems (to about 63A) or Moulded Case Circuit Breaker (MCCB) for larger stuff to 630A or so.
- GFCI = Residual Current Device (RCD) general case, or Residual Current Circuit Breaker (RCCB)
- AFCI = Arc Fault Detection Device (AFDD) here normally part of an RCBO (combined MCB & RCD)
- wire gauge = Cross Sectional Area (CSA) normally in mm^2 as actual area, not AWG (or SWG the old British style)
- ground = Earth, or Circuit Protective Conductor (CPC)
- hot = line / L ("live" strictly means current-carrying, so both L & N)
- cold = neutral / N
- wye = star
You do see 110V (as two-phase 55V-0V-55V) with yellow connectors on building sites for added safety, and occasionally 230V-0V-230V on rural properties, but generally if you need above 100A / 230V you get 3-phase here (400V delta / 230V wye) except for very large sites with private transformers where you might see 690V/400V 3-phase or event MV systems at 3.3kV or more.
The UK also likes fuses. Not just in our 13A plugs, but most installations have HRC fuses at the incomer and even MV motors, etc, often have fuses for fault protection. Related to this we have less of a focus on arc-flash energy limits, etc. Yes, it is still an issue on big sites but you won't see labels on everything warning you of energy levels as is see in the USA. It still pays to have a visor, gloves, etc, if working on big stuff as even with the energy limiting of fuses it can make for a VERY bad day.
As mentioned above, usually we treat light circuits as distinct from "power". Occasionally for something simple like a garage you might feed the lights off a 20A power socket circuit using a Fused Connection Unit (FCU) which is usually a switch and a fuse in the 3-13A region (3A typically for lights).
Normally we have the RCD/RCBO protecting the whole circuit (i.e. protective device is in the CU), not like the USA with GFCI/AFCI at the sockets themselves, but you do occasionally see RCD protected sockets here.
Due to our fused plugs and limited power demands it was common in old houses to maybe have just 3 circuits, cooker (30A), sockets (30A), and lights (5A) but today you would expect at least two light circuits and two socket circuits in most places, along with a few dedicated circuits like immersion heater, etc.
Also as @DPG mentioned we have a strong emphasis on testing, both:
- "dead" before energising where the insulation resistance is checked for obvious faults/damage at 500V (or 250V in some cases), and DC loop resistance of the live (hot) and CPC (ground wire) to prove both polarity and the fault clearing times will be met.
- "live" after energising to check the final circuit prospective fault current (PFC) / prospective short circuit current (PSCC) is within sane limits (i.e. that the MCB, etc, can safely clear a fault), the AC loop impedance 'Zs' is low enough for fault disconnection times to be met, and that RCD trip times are within specification.
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Over current protection and also earth leakage protection.
Do you have a calibrated tester available or will you be hiring one?
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An hour north takes it Perthshire? Wrong side of the capital for me I’m afraid.
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The link @James was trying to post:
shorturl.at
The IET Shop - Requirements for Electrical Installations, IET Wiring Regulations, Eighteenth Edition, BS 7671:2018+A2:2022
The IET Wiring Regulations is the national standard to which all domestic and industrial wiring must conform. BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 incorporates changes from the first amendment, published in 2020, regarding Electric Vehicle Charging Installations to provide greater guidance on embracing changing...
shorturl.at
Yes, this is the kind of stuff I need. I don't have to worry about the 3-phase. This is a single phase project. I will be getting the blue prints next month. Which will give me some time to study them. My other biggest concern is the testing the circuits. I am considering purchasing the proper testing equipment to do the tests. Having such a short window of 6-7 days to complete the project, I don't want to be delayed by the proper person not being available when I need him to complete the certs.
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My advice, now, is get a local electrician involved.
One recommended by a church in the town you will be working in. One might be able to advise the work, and do the testing for very little cost…. knowing it’s for charity.
Buying and reading the regulation book, and on site guides is all well and good, but it’s nothing compared to the experience of a qualified electrician who has worked in the UK
Do you have a postcode of the place? I am too far, but there might be a forum member closer.
One recommended by a church in the town you will be working in. One might be able to advise the work, and do the testing for very little cost…. knowing it’s for charity.
Buying and reading the regulation book, and on site guides is all well and good, but it’s nothing compared to the experience of a qualified electrician who has worked in the UK
Do you have a postcode of the place? I am too far, but there might be a forum member closer.
As @littlespark says you are far better to get a local electrician involved early on as they can advise on what is needed and do the final testing, even if you do most of the work installing stuff.
In the UK the only legal requirement is to be "electrically competent" but if anything goes wrong then of course folks will be checking for proof that those involved were. Usually that is a combination of education/exams, practical experience, and having the tools needed (including the current wiring regulations book). There are some competent person schemes that serve to check and register folks (such as SELECT in Scotland, NICEIC, etc) to make it easier, but that is more common for domestic work than commercial/industrial.
There are two statuary regulations I can think of that basically cover electrical safety for most LV systems (some industries have specific rules that differ such as railways, mining, nuclear, etc):
- The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989
- The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002
That guidance is useful for point #9 (my emphasis) in the list:
BS 7671 is a code of practice which is widely recognised and accepted in the UK and compliance with it is likely to achieve compliance with relevant aspects of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989
BS 7671 "Requirements for Electrical Installations, IET Wiring Regulations, Eighteenth Edition" is our "regs" also referred to as BBB (big brown book) and is equivalent to your NEC. It is not a legal document as such, and is updated and amended separately from the law which has not changed for some time. Note the legal guidance says "likely to achieve compliance" as the regs are the minimum standard and you can find odd situations where you might need to go beyond them to actually meet the law's goals for safety.
But in addition to the laws mentioned above you also have the building regulations and they differ slightly between 3 legislative regions of the UK: Scotland, England & Wales, and Northern Ireland. The Scottish ones are here, one for domestic properties, and one for others:
Building standards technical handbook 2022: domestic
Scottish Government building standards technical handbook for domestic buildings, 2022.
www.gov.scot
Building standards technical handbook 2022: domestic
Scottish Government building standards technical handbook for domestic buildings, 2022.
www.gov.scot
Just for the benefit of the OP or any others in their situation I thought of a few other differences worth mentioning:
For a lot of situations you will find the following is used:
The OSG lists such details giving you max lengths and suitability for typical building methods/routes and for the majority of domestic / light commercial jobs it has the choice covered.
- In the UK it is rare to see steel conduit in any domestic, or even many light commercial situations. It is seen in industrial and agricultural situations but sadly its not so common as it once was. For light duty stuff we typically use plastic conduit but that is more for show/appearance, or when putting cables in plastered walls, as it is not very impact resistant.
- We don't really have the equivalent of EMT. The steel conduit we use is all the medium gauge stuff (1.6mm = 1/16" wall thickness) often threaded, but you do get 'Conlok' accessories that makes life easier as ends don't need threading or rotation to install.
- You will see cables plastered directly in to channels in brick walls in many cases. I think it is a horrible practice and luckily it is not usually seen in Northern Ireland where they use plastic conduit (often oval profile so shallower grove needed) in the plaster to guide the cable.
- Mostly domestic wiring, and a fair bit of other types, is done in "twin and earth" cable (T&E). Or sometimes 3 core and earth (3&E) where multiple light switches are used such as top/bottom of stairs. It is vaguely like your Romex cable.
- Often T&E is PVC insulated to 70C max temperature, but you also get Low Smoke Zero Halogen (LSZH) types often seen in commercial settings where the fire safety regulations have been tougher and that is typically XLPE insulation good to 90C.
For a lot of situations you will find the following is used:
- 1mm cable and 6A RCBO for lights
- 2.5mm cable and either 20A (radial) or 32A (ring final circuit) RCBO for socket outlets
- 6mm cable and 32A RCBO for most domestic cookers (non-professional case allows significant load diversity)
- 10mm cable and 45A RCBO for electric shower
The OSG lists such details giving you max lengths and suitability for typical building methods/routes and for the majority of domestic / light commercial jobs it has the choice covered.
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We’ve not heard from OP since Wednesday, I think we may have put him off
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Does seem unusual of a project of this type, not to use a local contractor? Although I have read of UK electricians doing such work abroad, but with all the differences in materials, installation methods, testing etc, I think it would make insurance and subsequent litigation, not worth the cost saving.
Reply to A retired Yank from Nebraska is coming to Edinburgh on a mission trip in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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