Age of those who can build a control panel and control a process

[D Skelton]

So reading through a few of the recent threads where lack of skills in the industry seems to be the main bone of contention, I'm personally interested in the way that the industry is changing with bias towards the domestic sector. It seems to me that most of those coming out of college nowadays only seem to want to know about twin and earth.

I'm still young, under 30 that is, but despite having a crap education for the first two years I spent at college, I was lucky enough to learn from a lecturer in my final year who had only known commercial and industrial work, a rarity these days I know, considering most of the lecturers at my local college have never spent a single day on site! My last year had a heavy design bias and a lot on motors, with an apprenticeship served mainly within the commercial environment, I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones. Still, during college and after leaving I took it upon myself to learn about things we never covered such as basic safety systems for machinery, basic plc programming and control panel design, build and fault recification.

The point is, I still have a hell of a lot to learn, and will continue to do so for years to come, but have at least got my foot in the door of a sector within the industry which I can see almost becoming extinct in later years as all the top boys start popping their clogs.

What I want to know is simple. If you are an electrician, an engineer or a trainee electrician or engineer and you can either do all of the following three things or are learning to do all of the following three things; put together a control system, no matter how basic or complex, program a plc, no matter how basic or complex and implement or at least understand how a basic safety system works, what is your age?

That's it.

 

[LeeH]

36

I can only write basic ladder though. But I do panel design and build, installation work, machine maintenance, process, control etc.

I'd probably suck at wiring a house, I'd be too slow to make any money.

 

[Knobhead]

Damian, the day you know it all will be the day you die.

Forty five years in this sodding industry and I’m no where near the point when I’m totally confident that what I design is “legally” correct.

The first time I was asked to incorporate a PILZ relay, “I’m not putting that in!” It’ll make an emergency stop dangerous.




Time and tide wait for no man. Just go with the flow, it’s easier.

 

[Darkwood]

42 at the time of posting.

 

[D Skelton]

42 at the time of posting.

It's a poll DW. The clue is in the title

Whack yer age in there

 

[D Skelton]

Damian, the day you know it all will be the day you die.

Forty five years in this sodding industry and I’m no where near the point when I’m totally confident that what I design is “legally” correct.

The first time I was asked to incorporate a PILZ relay, “I’m not putting that in!” It’ll make an emergency stop dangerous.




Time and tide wait for no man. Just go with the flow, it’s easier.

The thing is, there is going to be a time when people like yourself will be no more. The reason I want to know ages is because I want to know if all the experts in this field are over 50, or at least fast approaching. In 20 or 30 years time, how many 'me's' are there likely to be on forums such as these.

There are a small handful of people that use this forum for example that I imagine can do the three things listed, at the time of posting this, you and DW have posted, both I would consider experts in this field. There are more, and I've a long way to go to reach your level of knowlege, or even close!

I just can't imagine a time where it will be down to people like me to keep this area of the industry alive!

Quite a frightening thought if I'm honest.

I better get reading! Lol

There is so much knowledge contained within the heads of people like you, and it aint gonna last forever! I don't wish to come across as macabre, but I do worry for the future of this once skilled trade.

 

[Darkwood]

It's a poll DW. The clue is in the title

Whack yer age in there

Soz missed the pole bit, the industry has already got a 20yr gap of skills Im mown under replacing retired engineers where they have got my name by word of mouth, I travel Manchester, Liverpool and Hull to do simple repairs in my mind but the companies cannot source any local competent Electricial Engineers without ending up with domestic throwback out of their depth.

 

[Robotstar5]

PLC & Robot programming since 1980 and panel design & build since mid 90's, 54 now.

 

[Knobhead]

Looks like we’re all ready to pop our clogs.

Sorry Damian, but as the youngest, you’re it!

 

[D Skelton]

Looks like we’re all ready to pop our clogs.

Sorry Damian, but as the youngest, you’re it!

Ah crap! lol

Not sure I'm quite ready for that weight to be on my shoulders!

Surely there are some more youngsters either involved or getting involved with this side of things?!

 

[Bobster]

I've still a few years left in me.

 

[RyanCheetham]

Aged 27, wouldn't even know where to start on a panel build. I hold my hands up to having no experience beyond 'standard' installations of circuits and data, 90% of it in domestic situations. I fear i am a few generations behind the highly skilled electricians of yesteryear

 

[gnuuser]

53 and still young (never too old to learn unless your dead)
panel builder, fair at plc, decent at resi and commercial

 

[D Skelton]

Quite a clear pattern emerging already!

 

[Marvo]

I can string a control panel together and program a PLC of a good day and although on some days I don't feel it I'm under 50 still if that counts for much.

 

[netblindpaul]

Not quite 50, though some days I feel 70, but a heck of a lot closer to 50 than I would like to be perhaps.

By the time my daughter finishes Uni after going there straight from A levels I'll be 50, so that could be a party!

 

[shanky887614]

i couldnt i know that, the only things i know about plc's etc ive learned online for my own curiousity, wouldn't have a clue about building a panel, i can read the drawings but that doesnt mean i would know what to connect where

 

[netblindpaul]

The thing is panel building is no more difficult than wiring a house, IF you have the information, and the design, OK it's a bit different, but no more difficult, different yes.
I have done both.
However, panel design, and thus design of control systems is something completely different.
I would wager that almost all "normal" electricians/electrical contractors are not even insured for that work.

 

[rapparee]

Im under 30 but my skills would be quite basic compared to other members on here but then again give me another 20 years and i'll get there lol

 

[rapparee]

The thing is panel building is no more difficult than wiring a house, IF you have the information, and the design, OK it's a bit different, but no more difficult, different yes.
I have done both.
However, panel design, and thus design of control systems is something completely different.
I would wager that almost all "normal" electricians/electrical contractors are not even insured for that work.

Exactly i was hesitant to answer that i do panel building, certainly i can do what i'm told by following schematic drawings but to design a complex system from scratch would be a bridge too far for me

 

[jon4381]

33, done some panel building, cat 1, cat 3 safety circuits and I know basic Plc. Operated a robot welder and problem solved basic problems.

 

[7029 dave]

Never have never will, installation all my time, now metering nice little job for somebody in my years. 51

 

[Rockingit]

I *did* it all at college, and wouldn't feel apprehensive about tackling it again now despite the years in between, but the reality of actually being asked is remote. The South West isn't exactly a buzzing hub of manufacturing installations.

 

[Adam W]

I wouldn't know where to begin programming a PLC, but it's something I'd like to learn about. Same with most things - I can't think of anything worse than just going around doing domestic remedials and alterations like some kind of glorified van driver.
I don't know if it's necessarily a case of the skill dying out - it seems to me a lot of people entering the trade with a fixed idea of only doing domestic are older, having previously been in other occupations.

 

[Darkwood]

The thing is panel building is no more difficult than wiring a house, IF you have the information, and the design, OK it's a bit different, but no more difficult, different yes.
I have done both.
However, panel design, and thus design of control systems is something completely different.
I would wager that almost all "normal" electricians/electrical contractors are not even insured for that work.

I added machine control systems and 3phase to my PLI and it tripled it .... most dabblers out there are non competent and not covered without even knowing they aint, so many times i've asked the customer to check the sparkies coverage they use and all of a sudden they are history lol ....quickest way to win a customer IMHO

 

[Darkwood]

I wouldn't know where to begin programming a PLC, but it's something I'd like to learn about. Same with most things - I can't think of anything worse than just going around doing domestic remedials and alterations like some kind of glorified van driver.
I don't know if it's necessarily a case of the skill dying out - it seems to me a lot of people entering the trade with a fixed idea of only doing domestic are older, having previously been in other occupations.

Crouzet Automatismes - M3 Soft Download
Download this and and have a play its easy to pick up simple programs ... its gets very complex though very quickly

 

[tazz]

Software is a great forefront ...and can give a full matrix, the idea being program inputs to program outputs...we can time them, nor, and or nand them.
But unless we follow old school mechanical/electrical safety devices, and these features can only be taught by experience. System can be dangerous as the designers ...

 

[gnuuser]

writing a program is not difficult but incorporating all possible safety measures can drive a program designer a bit daft.
you have to be so careful with your program to make sure the walking brain farts don't earn a darwin award ( by all means stupidity must be protected) (most normal workers have the common sense not to mess with stuff)

 

[ferg]

Am 41 now but covered basic ladder logic etc during apprenticeship.

Did some panel building for a while but always to a spec. With the exception of some VERY basic stuff.

No design skills whatsoever and haven't done any of the above for a good few years now.

Apprenticeships Are oinly for 4 years not long enough to teach everything from scratch and so are biased towards whatever the company employing you needs you to do.

I would say it is quite exceptional to have a good grounding in all aspects of electrical work and those who have it have worked long and damned hard to get it and should be able to charge accordingly.

The kind of work being discussed here is not run of the mill stuff and by nature will be down to relatively few sparks.

Consequently more susceptible to skill shortage.

I'm not convinced this is a new phenomenon TBH.

 

[UNG]

Not built any control panels for a few years now at one time built a lot of control panels for Pilkington's that were shipped all over the world for the float glass plants they supported quite interesting labelling and legending panels in foreign languages and checking and double checking to make sure they functioned as the labels and legends stated

 

[SheffSimon]

Why would I want the control panel wireman to write the PLC software?

Why would I want the control panel designer to physically build the panel?

My own background is PLC/DCS software design, writing and commissioning, and general control system design including panel and safety system design. The companies I've worked for either had a panel shop or subbed it out. There are a million panel bashing companies out there.

Likewise with the installation, we design it in-house and sub out the supply and install.

I don't think its a dying industry, in fact there seems to be loads of work out there at the minute.

I'm 44 BTW....

 

[Badged01]

As a poll result, yep to all and I'm over 50 -- nearer to the 60 end but Im not giving exacts away!!.

Though it may take me some time to get back into the swing of things and my sware programming skills are probably pretty rusty'ish now! I can still remember some ADA 83 code ......

 

[Knobhead]

One thing I learnt very early on. Production muppets are a bloody site more inventive than me. If there’s way to screw a machine up, they’ll find it.

 

[ElectroChem]

I'm 32 and a year into my apprenticeship, I'm just getting into wiring some panels now and my master wants me able to design my own by the time I'm done.

 

[Spoon]

I'm 46. Wired panels in the past, but mainly design them now. Still like to wire them up every now and then.
I have done some PLC programming but only with AB stuff. Other guys at work do the programming of our PLC's.
Done some safety training as well.

 

[WaterSparky]

Im 21, working in the utilities industry, doing maintenance I currently make small control panels for small processes, I can program low level PLCs like your Zelios (Primarily schneider gear) and to high level structured text on M340, with a little help on the more complex control. Safety systems am I ok at to a basic level I usually have to ask for a bit of guidance on how more complicated panels/systems should be setup which the more mature guys help with. Ive got miles more to learn in my field of instruments and automation. But love all of it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Don't do any of the things listed now, but have done.

 

[snowhead]

There's nothing to fear for the future.

The Internet will come to the rescue with forums;

How to Design and build control panels in 5 weeks.

How to program PLCs in 5 weeks.

How to design safety systems in 5 weeks.

The 5 weeks was just an arbitrary figure plucked from nowhere, it may be more or less in reality.

 

[spark 68]

Over 45 but under 50, done most things listed at one time or another, worked for a couple of multi-national panel builders at different times, worked in a car plant for a while, only stuff I haven't done is the big stuff like what Tony and Rob has, nor managed large projects like E54, not qualified nor insured enough to actually design SIL systems like Netblind Paul or DW, but have wired them up as per spec and some fault finding experience with them, nothing on HV, nor hazardous stuff, I have done some fairly basic PLC programming. Also some testing and commissioning of switch gear, oh! and a bit domestic lol.

Always eager to learn more, I tend to stay in my comfort zone these days, I know my limitations and when I need outside expertise for either legislative reasons, or simply because I know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Every day is still a school day.

 

[Darkwood]

Over 45 but under 50, done most things listed at one time or another, worked for a couple of multi-national panel builders at different times, worked in a car plant for a while, only stuff I haven't done is the big stuff like what Tony and Rob has, nor managed large projects like E54, not qualified nor insured enough to actually design SIL systems like Netblind Paul or DW, but have wired them up as per spec and some fault finding experience with them, nothing on HV, nor hazardous stuff, I have done some fairly basic PLC programming. Also some testing and commissioning of switch gear, oh! and a bit domestic lol.

Always eager to learn more, I tend to stay in my comfort zone these days, I know my limitations and when I need outside expertise for either legislative reasons, or simply because I know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Every day is still a school day.

OP only asked your age bracket :smartass2:.... but as you name dropped me Ill say I enjoyed the post lol

 

[Knobhead]

There's nothing to fear for the future.

The Internet will come to the rescue with forums;

How to Design and build control panels in 5 weeks.

How to program PLCs in 5 weeks.

How to design safety systems in 5 weeks.

The 5 weeks was just an arbitrary figure plucked from nowhere, it may be more or less in reality.

It’s only a 3 day add on to the domestic installer course for industrial.

 

[bcm_spark]

I don't post on this forum very often but I do have a browse every now and then. This topic caught my eye, Mr Skelton, you are correct, it only seems to be the old boys that have any experience at this type of thing and very few of the younger lads including so called engineers who's excuse is always, "the computer says it'll be ok". Yes but your computers not installing it is it you stupid boy!

Myself, I am 34 and I can say that I am competent in putting together a control panel complete with beta duct of various sizes laid out appropriately to accommodate relays, contactors, em stops, LCD displays, TC's etc etc.

Panels with 110v, 24v, 48v with different coloured insulation for different voltages all in the same panel no problems.

I can wire all of this from drawings and terminate using the correct crimps (or ferrules depending on where your from) bootlace crimps, pin crimps, hook crimps etc. Complete with cable idents on all cores. The back plate earthed to the panel etc. And, and this is a big AND, no pen marks on the back plate. How many times have you seen a plate that has been marked out using a big black sharpie and when it is complete, the first thing you see when you open the panel door is black bloody lines everywhere!

I am not much good a PLC work but it's easy enough with instructions.

36

I'd probably suck at wiring a house, I'd be too slow to make any money.

Lee, yeah me to mate, I'd spend the first day looking round, drinking tea planning the job. The second day getting the gear together and the third day, well there probably wouldn't be a third day as I'd have been binned!!

I once worked with a house basher and I asked him how long to wire a 3 bed semi, "one day"!!

Ben

 

[D Skelton]

The results of this poll are pretty alarming to be honest!

That said, mega bucks in years to come in this side of the industry! Supply and demand!

 

[shanky887614]

I don't post on this forum very often but I do have a browse every now and then. This topic caught my eye, Mr Skelton, you are correct, it only seems to be the old boys that have any experience at this type of thing and very few of the younger lads including so called engineers who's excuse is always, "the computer says it'll be ok". Yes but your computers not installing it is it you stupid boy!

Myself, I am 34 and I can say that I am competent in putting together a control panel complete with beta duct of various sizes laid out appropriately to accommodate relays, contactors, em stops, LCD displays, TC's etc etc.

Panels with 110v, 24v, 48v with different coloured insulation for different voltages all in the same panel no problems.

I can wire all of this from drawings and terminate using the correct crimps (or ferrules depending on where your from) bootlace crimps, pin crimps, hook crimps etc. Complete with cable idents on all cores. The back plate earthed to the panel etc. And, and this is a big AND, no pen marks on the back plate. How many times have you seen a plate that has been marked out using a big black sharpie and when it is complete, the first thing you see when you open the panel door is black bloody lines everywhere!

I am not much good a PLC work but it's easy enough with instructions.



Lee, yeah me to mate, I'd spend the first day looking round, drinking tea planning the job. The second day getting the gear together and the third day, well there probably wouldn't be a third day as I'd have been binned!!

I once worked with a house basher and I asked him how long to wire a 3 bed semi, "one day"!!

Ben

3 bed semi?

im guessing that is without making good or all surface stickyback minitrunking

 

[rapparee]

There was an old fella who was from shrewsbury who was in his seventies he was officially retired before i started, but our company took him out of retirement every six months or so to come back over to ireland to program/build robots etc but in the end he had to tell us he was definetly retiring ( i still remember him racing out of the yard in his big jag to catch the ferry), he is replaced now with a young gun in his sixties

 

[bcm_spark]

3 bed semi?

im guessing that is without making good or all surface stickyback minitrunking

Haven't a clue mate, I just told him he can sod off if he thinks he'll ever get a job on my house!

 

[netblindpaul]

I don't think this is just about building, building is the easy bit, really, the design aspect of the systems is the most onerous, the panel layout is secondary, and the build is straight forward.
It is only the first two that require any design input, the last is just like working from the osg, & the guide to the building regs with some training.

 

[Darkwood]

The results of this poll are pretty alarming to be honest!

That said, mega bucks in years to come in this side of the industry! Supply and demand!

Its kind of a biased pole anyway as its on an Electrical forum so your really asking the majority of how old are the panel builders who are or were Electricians. Now if this was a control systems forum it would read very differently I suspect.

 

[Bobster]

Its kind of a biased pole anyway as its on an Electrical forum so your really asking the majority of how old are the panel builders who are or were Electricians. Now if this was a control systems forum it would read very differently I suspect.

The majority of the lads in my office range between 30 and 45. With the youngest being 24.

 

[Darkwood]

The majority of the lads in my office range between 30 and 45. With the youngest being 24.

Maybe it is reflective then of the true age group percentage but without a larger field pole across differing related forums Ill take the above result with a pinch of salt, all I know is we are already seeing a massive skills hole in this field due to retirement and lack of replacement - this would suggest as does the pole that no-one new is entering the field and all those working in it are too busy already to fill the retiring sector.