Alterations to properties with 16th Edition set-ups

[The General]

Evening all. Just getting my fireproof trousers on ready for being shot down in flames......I try not to post too many questions on here as it highlights how little I know, but I'm doing my best to learn from others and my own mistakes and sometimes there's no-one else to ask. So here goes:

I've been out to a house today which is going to be rented out - they wanted an additional socket put in before tenants move in. PME supply with 16mm tails, 10mm earth and a 16th Edition board with BS3781 MCBs and no RCD.

My question is around what are 'Requirements' and what are merely 'nice to do' actions in terms of work.

From conversations I've had with more experienced electricians, I've been led to believe that by making an addition to the circuit (i.e. spur for the extra socket) I would need to ensure that the installation is brought up to current standards.

So, in this case:
Upgrade 16mm to 25mm tails?
Upgrade 10mm to 16mm earth?
Install either an RCD upfront, an RCBO in that particular circuit, replace the whole board or use an RCD socket outlet?
Oh, and the tails were a lot longer than 3m, so a switchfuse at the cut-out too?

Obviously, this is significantly more work than the customer was expecting!!

Am I way off the mark here, or are all these actions necessary before I can put an extra socket in?!?

Thanks for your time (and patience)

 

[jackhammerJIM]

This does not sound like a 16th edition setup . do you have a picture of the board ?


And yes you are way off the mark

 

[Sintra]

Way off the mark mate. You only need to make sure your addition complies to the current regs along with bonding etc. No need to change cu or rewire the house.
ps that's not a 16th ed board that is installed.

 

[The General]

This does not sound like a 16th edition setup . do you have a picture of the board ?


And yes you are way off the mark

Sorry - no picture - and I was guessing as to 16th Edition (before my time....)

 

[The General]

Way off the mark mate. You only need to make sure your addition complies to the current regs along with bonding etc. No need to change cu or rewire the house.
ps that's not a 16th ed board that is installed.

So, for my addition to comply, I need an RCD for the socket, no?

 

[Sintra]

I can't really answer that as you haven't stated the method you propose to install the cable or type of cable.

 

[D Skelton]

So, in this case:
Upgrade 16mm to 25mm tails?
Upgrade 10mm to 16mm earth?

I'll let others fill you in on why you're way off the mark, there are plenty of reasons but this bit sticks out for me inparticular.

At great risk of sounding pedantic this says to me that you spend too much time reading the On Site Guide instead of the regs. May I suggest that you redress this balance.

With regards to the job, if bonding is good, an RCD socket will do the job with a bit of MT2 up the skirting board.

 

[The General]

I can't really answer that as you haven't stated the method you propose to install the cable or type of cable.

It was going to be chased into the wall......

 

[telectrix]

As damian said. Rcd socket with surface cable or rcdfcu then spur to new socket if you are chasing cable in wall.

 

[NickD]

Declaration on the Minor Works form you'll presumably be signing tells it like it is really:

"I/We CERTIFY that the said works do not impair the safety of the existing installation, that the said works have been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671:2008 (IET Wiring Regulations), amended to .................. (date) and that the said works, to the best of my/our knowledge and belief, at the time of my/our inspection, complied with BS 7671 except as detailed in Part 1 above." (Very unlikely you will detail any BS7671 departures.)

How are you planning to run the spur, buried or something else? <edit: OP just answered this>

Probably doesn't help but what's the intended use of the socket?

 

[The General]

I'll let others fill you in on why you're way off the mark, there are plenty of reasons but this bit sticks out for me inparticular.

At great risk of sounding pedantic this says to me that you spend too much time reading the On Site Guide instead of the regs. May I suggest that you redress this balance.

With regards to the job, if bonding is good, an RCD socket will do the job with a bit of MT2 up the skirting board.

It's a fair cop guv....will dust off the BGB at the weekend

 

[The General]

Declaration on the Minor Works form you'll presumably be signing tells it like it is really:

"I/We CERTIFY that the said works do not impair the safety of the existing installation, that the said works have been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671:2008 (IET Wiring Regulations), amended to .................. (date) and that the said works, to the best of my/our knowledge and belief, at the time of my/our inspection, complied with BS 7671 except as detailed in Part 1 above." (Very unlikely you will detail any BS7671 departures.)

How are you planning to run the spur, buried or something else? <edit: OP just answered this>

Probably doesn't help but what's the intended use of the socket?[/QUOTE]

Not a freezer unfortunately... ;-)

 

[NickD]

Yebbut what is the intended use as opposed to what isn't?

 

[The General]

Yebbut what is the intended use as opposed to what isn't?

Telly, DVD etc

 

[telectrix]

So. Ensure earthing and bonding are in situ. Fit fcu next to donor socket. Spur off ,MWC, get paid.

 

[Richard Burns]

I think it has all been said above but:

Your part of the installation needs to be installed in compliance with the current regulations.
Because you are making an alteration to the installation the earthing and bonding need to be adequate for the protective measures you are using.
The parts of the installation that you are employing for your alteration must be suitable for the changes you are making.

Because you are adding a socket and intending to bury the cable (without an earthed sheath and not protected against penetration), presumably less than 50mm deep, in a domestic property then the cable and the socket need to be protected by a 30mA RCD that operates in the required times.
The circuit you are extending needs to be able to carry the increased load anticipated, must meet the required disconnection times for ads, the supply needs to be capable of meeting the new load requirements.

 

[The General]

So. Ensure earthing and bonding are in situ. Fit fcu next to donor socket. Spur off ,MWC, get paid.

Lol.
Wife nagging me to switch off and relax for evening - thanks to all for advice/guidance

 

[NickD]

Deffo needs RCD protection then.

If you bury the cable <50mm deep so does that (obviously a socket with integral RCD doesn't protect the cable supplying the socket). Unless you take measures that are almost certainly more of a pain in the backside than RCD protecting the cable.

 

[Octopus]

Evening all. Just getting my fireproof trousers on ready for being shot down in flames......I try not to post too many questions on here as it highlights how little I know, but I'm doing my best to learn from others and my own mistakes and sometimes there's no-one else to ask. So here goes:

I've been out to a house today which is going to be rented out - they wanted an additional socket put in before tenants move in. PME supply with 16mm tails, 10mm earth and a 16th Edition board with BS3781 MCBs and no RCD.

My question is around what are 'Requirements' and what are merely 'nice to do' actions in terms of work.

From conversations I've had with more experienced electricians, I've been led to believe that by making an addition to the circuit (i.e. spur for the extra socket) I would need to ensure that the installation is brought up to current standards.

So, in this case:
Upgrade 16mm to 25mm tails?
Upgrade 10mm to 16mm earth?
Install either an RCD upfront, an RCBO in that particular circuit, replace the whole board or use an RCD socket outlet?
Oh, and the tails were a lot longer than 3m, so a switchfuse at the cut-out too?

Obviously, this is significantly more work than the customer was expecting!!

Am I way off the mark here, or are all these actions necessary before I can put an extra socket in?!?

Thanks for your time (and patience)

If its about to be rented out I would recommend an EICR before you do anything......

 

[The General]

I think it has all been said above but:

Your part of the installation needs to be installed in compliance with the current regulations.
Because you are making an alteration to the installation the earthing and bonding need to be adequate for the protective measures you are using.
The parts of the installation that you are employing for your alteration must be suitable for the changes you are making.

Because you are adding a socket and intending to bury the cable (without an earthed sheath and not protected against penetration), presumably less than 50mm deep, in a domestic property then the cable and the socket need to be protected by a 30mA RCD that operates in the required times.
The circuit you are extending needs to be able to carry the increased load anticipated, must meet the required disconnection times for ads, the supply needs to be capable of meeting the new load requirements.

Thanks Richard - that's a really good summary, and sometimes I really do need it spelled out in no uncertain terms! Thanks.