Am I being a snob, or is this actually dangerous

[Inteificio]

On a distribution board last week in a farm house, I saw 2 core 4mm SWA with the sheath terminated by having a couple of strands in a terminal block.

A photo would save a thousand words, but I found out on that day that my camera phone is not waterproof =-(

The other sparky on site said it is fine if the Zs is in, which I accepted at the time.

Then I got thinking, the Zs will make sure the fuse trips, but how can you guarantee conductor safety while the fuse is tripping?
We had a similar issue in our factory where a spark proved that a distribution circuit would blow in 4s, within the limit. However I pointed out the wires would be melting the insulation after 1s.

I can do the calcs to prove how hot that conductor will get, but that is not sparky level maths and I know the guy who installed it won't be able to do that.

So my question is:

When is it ever safe to terminate only a couple of strands of the armouring on SWA when it is being used as the CPC.

This is quite important as I am going to be politely confronting the guy, and I don't want to risk causing offence if I am wrong. I will be the first to admit domestic is not my speciality.

 

[Inteificio]

Which part of BS-7671 being not statutory, and therefore not being law, and therefore not having to be complied with literally to comply with the law do you disagree with?

You do not have to adhere to bs7671 to the letter to be legal, or to be safe.

However I would never terminate a cable like the above, I would consider it unsafe, hence me being on here asking more experienced people their opinion.

Regarding what the judge would say. If you have breached the BS7671 regs and there was an electrical fire, he is the guy who you would have to convince.

Personally if I was signing off that termination it would be a Cat 1 fail as a fire risk, but that is just me. I prefer my cat 1 fails as they cover my arse.

 

[wildgoose]

Why we don't use the same logic as your mate which only considers the resistance value and not CSA of the earth conductor??

If we did, then it means we could normally wire all the earths in 2mm cable. It would meet the ohmic value and save us heaps of money!!

It would also be totally inapropriate for dealing with any faults currents. Could this be just why main earths in houses are at 16mm???????????

 

[Guest123]

Rgardless of BS 7671 being statutory or not, if the issue remains after the final sign off, the installation will not comply as it will not be installed to BS 7671 as claimed.

510.3 refers to manufacturers instructions.

 

[telectrix]

and if those 2 strands were to snap due to mechanical stress, ask him what would then carry a fault current. beggars belief that anyone with basic electrical knowledge would even consider such an arrangement. it's like a plumber trying to plug a 22mm pipe with a 15mm stop-end. ( come to think of it, is this so-called electrician a retrained plumber?)

 

[Marvo]

I would also say that regardless of any reassurances by the installer it needs glanding on both ends. I would take a photo and send him a snag order, end of story. On something as blatant as this I wouldn't even quote the regs or be prepared to get into a discussion about it.

 

[netblindpaul]

BS7671 may not be statutory, but good old Part P is, and even if the work is not notifiable under pt P it still must comply, which requires it to comply with 7671, there in you have 4 reasons for non compliance already.
1. mechanical support or the lack of to relieve the stresses and strains on the connection
2. manuf instructions which will require the cable be correctly glanded
3. fault current calcs
4. the requirement in 7671 for suitable materials and workmanship

Oh and the same requirement in 4 above in building regs.

Get it sorted mate you know you want to!

 

[Guest112]

i dont understand the issue of glanding is he not capable?

 

[morph]

if the swa is the cpc then both ends need terminating in a suitable manner which is usually by means of a gland, another method may be appropiate

i assume the consumer unit is plastic and this is why he has not glanded it,
if he has used cleats then the cable is suported and so you cant use the mechanical support arguement
it is clearly a sloppy job,

 

[morph]

BS7671 may not be statutory, but good old Part P is, and even if the work is not notifiable under pt P it still must comply, which requires it to comply with 7671, there in you have 4 reasons for non compliance already.
1. mechanical support or the lack of to relieve the stresses and strains on the connection
2. manuf instructions which will require the cable be correctly glanded
3. fault current calcs
4. the requirement in 7671 for suitable materials and workmanship

Oh and the same requirement in 4 above in building regs.

Get it sorted mate you know you want to!

thats right regulation 7 i believe
as i said sloppy..

 

[netblindpaul]

You could probably also find something in the Construction Design & Management Regulations to have him on as well, they are statute law!

 

[Engineer54]

This is going to be my last word on this matter...

If you think for a even a second, that a BS standard won't count for anything in a court of law then your very much mistaken. As far as i know, there have been quite a few cases of non compliance, or where electrical installations have caused injury or destruction of property. Guess what publication was heavily used to prove the parties responsible, ...guilty of professional neglect!!!

The only way you can circumvent BS7671 is by improvement, ie, ...designing/installing to a higher standard or level than that stated in BS7671... After all The Reg's are classified as the ''Minimum'' requirements of electrical installations!!


You say in one of your posts, that your an Electrical Engineer, yet you don't seem to be aware of all the implications, when a simple SWA cable hasn't been terminated correctly, or as in this case, a complete pigs ear of a job has been made of the termination...


As a final thought, i'm not sure i would call a guy a mate, who is willing to install and leave an installation at my parents home in this condition, and then have the cheek to hold his hand out for payment!! lol!!!

 

[Guest112]

agreed i really dont see the reasoning to not gland the cable clearly the spark isnt capable and will not admit it, if he cant gland an armoured i wonder what else he cant do, also regardless if your an engineer and you can do maths sparks cant well done you unnecessary calculations imo as a simple solution is there,

rather than trying to find an answer on here to justify poor workmanship you shouldve rang the spark and told him to get back to the job and do it again

 

[Knobhead]

Out of interest how is the cable terminated at the remote end?

 

[Dan the spark]

It must have taken him more time to bell out the 2cores in question at each end to find the right ones then it would have to have put 10 glands on?:dunce:

 

[Dan the spark]

Hopefully he hasn't just guessed them? Especially if the circuit has been energised?
As for leaving 2 socket fronts off, does this guy not carry out ring continuity tests before energising???

 

[trev]

I have to say, this guy sounds bloody dangerous to me. A non tested RFC with live ends flapping about, an swa hanging on it's terminations. What else has he not done right that hasn't been found yet?
I think I'd be showing him the door.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I really cant believe all this!! That SWA cable needs glanding, there is no ifs or buts about it!! There aren't any excuses this electrician can come up with to substantiate not glanding a SWA cable entering an enclose, especially a DB/CU... End off!!

it isn`t just the fact that the damned thing wasn`t glanded....the dis board`s IP rating will have been compromised by this n all....shocking....truely shocking....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and on that basis i saw earlier in this thread it had been given a "2" by a poster on here......to me its a 1...

 

[dez0178]

Always bare in mind, You should always follow the reg's, and every termination should be of a High quality, as allready stated there should be all strands present, not just a couple. If you are in doubt and question the quality of work you see, then bet your bottom dollar, it's not good enough mate. Always do the best you can do, if you wouldn't like that in your house then don't do it in others.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hopefully he hasn't just guessed them? Especially if the circuit has been energised?
As for leaving 2 socket fronts off, does this guy not carry out ring continuity tests before energising???

probably no real loop value taken here either.......so disconnection times may not have been met....think i would be having a look round all the accessories/terminations here n all....bet you find a wrong polarity or three..lol.....