Am I being a snob, or is this actually dangerous

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Am I being a snob, or is this actually dangerous

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Inteificio

On a distribution board last week in a farm house, I saw 2 core 4mm SWA with the sheath terminated by having a couple of strands in a terminal block.

A photo would save a thousand words, but I found out on that day that my camera phone is not waterproof =-(

The other sparky on site said it is fine if the Zs is in, which I accepted at the time.

Then I got thinking, the Zs will make sure the fuse trips, but how can you guarantee conductor safety while the fuse is tripping?
We had a similar issue in our factory where a spark proved that a distribution circuit would blow in 4s, within the limit. However I pointed out the wires would be melting the insulation after 1s.

I can do the calcs to prove how hot that conductor will get, but that is not sparky level maths and I know the guy who installed it won't be able to do that.

So my question is:

When is it ever safe to terminate only a couple of strands of the armouring on SWA when it is being used as the CPC.

This is quite important as I am going to be politely confronting the guy, and I don't want to risk causing offence if I am wrong. I will be the first to admit domestic is not my speciality.
 
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This is going to be my last word on this matter...

If you think for a even a second, that a BS standard won't count for anything in a court of law then your very much mistaken. As far as i know, there have been quite a few cases of non compliance, or where electrical installations have caused injury or destruction of property. Guess what publication was heavily used to prove the parties responsible, ...guilty of professional neglect!!!

The only way you can circumvent BS7671 is by improvement, ie, ...designing/installing to a higher standard or level than that stated in BS7671... After all The Reg's are classified as the ''Minimum'' requirements of electrical installations!!


You say in one of your posts, that your an Electrical Engineer, yet you don't seem to be aware of all the implications, when a simple SWA cable hasn't been terminated correctly, or as in this case, a complete pigs ear of a job has been made of the termination...


As a final thought, i'm not sure i would call a guy a mate, who is willing to install and leave an installation at my parents home in this condition, and then have the cheek to hold his hand out for payment!! lol!!!
 
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agreed i really dont see the reasoning to not gland the cable clearly the spark isnt capable and will not admit it, if he cant gland an armoured i wonder what else he cant do, also regardless if your an engineer and you can do maths sparks cant well done you unnecessary calculations imo as a simple solution is there,

rather than trying to find an answer on here to justify poor workmanship you shouldve rang the spark and told him to get back to the job and do it again
 
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I have to say, this guy sounds bloody dangerous to me. A non tested RFC with live ends flapping about, an swa hanging on it's terminations. What else has he not done right that hasn't been found yet?
I think I'd be showing him the door.
 
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Engineer54 said:
I really cant believe all this!! That SWA cable needs glanding, there is no ifs or buts about it!! There aren't any excuses this electrician can come up with to substantiate not glanding a SWA cable entering an enclose, especially a DB/CU... End off!!
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it isn`t just the fact that the damned thing wasn`t glanded....the dis board`s IP rating will have been compromised by this n all....shocking....truely shocking....
 
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Always bare in mind, You should always follow the reg's, and every termination should be of a High quality, as allready stated there should be all strands present, not just a couple. If you are in doubt and question the quality of work you see, then bet your bottom dollar, it's not good enough mate. Always do the best you can do, if you wouldn't like that in your house then don't do it in others.
 
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Dan the spark said:
Hopefully he hasn't just guessed them? Especially if the circuit has been energised?
As for leaving 2 socket fronts off, does this guy not carry out ring continuity tests before energising???
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probably no real loop value taken here either.......so disconnection times may not have been met....think i would be having a look round all the accessories/terminations here n all....bet you find a wrong polarity or three..lol.....
 
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GLENNSPARK said:
and on that basis i saw earlier in this thread it had been given a "2" by a poster on here......to me its a 1...
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Gotta disagree with that buddy :) As shocking as it is to think that someone could terminate SWA in a connector block, it still at that moment in time provides an earth path. Acceptable or not, it poses no immediate danger, just the possibility of future danger, therefore a code 2. Those are my thoughts anyway.
 
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D Skelton said:
Gotta disagree with that buddy :) As shocking as it is to think that someone could terminate SWA in a connector block, it still at that moment in time provides an earth path. Acceptable or not, it poses no immediate danger, just the possibility of future danger, therefore a code 2. Those are my thoughts anyway.
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yes but i thought that had already been covered by earlier posts....it was the fact that the cable hadn`t been glanded/secured at all which thus was also compromising the IP rating of the c/u.....
 
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D Skelton said:
Gotta disagree with that buddy :) As shocking as it is to think that someone could terminate SWA in a connector block, it still at that moment in time provides an earth path. Acceptable or not, it poses no immediate danger, just the possibility of future danger, therefore a code 2. Those are my thoughts anyway.
Click to expand...

Were not talking about doing a PIR here, were talking about a new build. Coding doesn't come into it, it's a straight up and down, non-complying pigs ear of a job and needs correcting....
 
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GLENNSPARK said:
yes but i thought that had already been covered by earlier posts....it was the fact that the cable hadn`t been glanded/secured at all which thus was also compromising the IP rating of the c/u.....
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Still, I wouldn't class that as immediate danger, just my opinion. Codes are open to interpretation though I suppose. Some may say C1, some may say C2, either way, it means it needs sorting out! lol.

GLENNSPARK said:
all in all its a load of crap and woe betide anyone who ever worked for me doing something like that...and i got called out after em to sort it.....woe betide em......
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I fully agree!

Engineer54 said:
Were not talking about doing a PIR here, were talking about a new build. Coding doesn't come into it, it's a straight up and down, non-complying pigs ear of a job and needs correcting....
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You're right, totally, however I think I skimmed through a lot of posts and that's why I'm off digressing with Glenn but anyway, It's interesting to see what others would code it as if it were a PIR.

To the OP, give the spark (and I use that word very loosely) who set this up in your old dears house a good hard slap will ya! And most importantly, don't hand over a penny until it's sorted! If you turned up in court using the defence "But BS 7671 is non-statutory isn't it???..." any judge would throw the book at you!

The guy who set this up at your mums is a complete douche! simple as!
 
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GLENNSPARK said:
well lets say ...a blank was missing from one of the unused ways on this c/u......what would you give it?....a dangerous situation?....
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Tough one! ermmm, it all depends I think. If it was easily accessible to anybody and had no other form of cover then probably yes, but if it was fitted high up maybe in a meter cupboard and the CU had a front cover of some kind, similar to the covers Contactum use over their CU's then maybe no.

TBH, I think in 99% of cases I would have to give that a C1 to be safe. It all depends on that all important interpretation of the words 'immediate danger'.
 
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D Skelton said:
Your PIR, your coding innit :D
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well with all respect d...i could not accept a "2" for this on the basis its up near the ceiling.....what happens if an MCB or an RCD/RCBO lets go?...and an unskilled/uninstructed person/s not under supervision (the owner/occupier) decides to reset.....then the danger exists.....what if they dont keep any steps/ladders....and decide to reset using somthing to "poke" the MCB/RCD/RCBO closed again?....what if its a bit of metal they have to hand and it slips and goes into the unblanked way/s..hmm?....a lot of what iffs here but isn`t about reducing potentials to a minimum?......
 
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1shortcircuit said:
I think this is now moving away from the original question the OP posted;)

Speaking of OP, when did they last post????
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I think he may of gone to do some more maths that are far too advanced for us mere mortals maybe ?

So where were you gentlemen? the code 1/2 dispute
As a numpty (learning) im thinking of exceptions to it being a code 1,would it be if the CU's in a lockable enclosure (with with an equal ip rating?) with the key only available to instructed,competent or skilled person(s)?.........or a barrier in place?
But then you have overhead gantry cranes that have live exposed conductive parts and thats acceptable because there out of reach? or overhead busbars supplying industrial machinery
Is it simply a code 1 because the CU does not meet the given ip rating stated in 7671?
 
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gottahugenoggin said:
I think he may of gone to do some more maths that are far too advanced for us mere mortals maybe ?

So where were you gentlemen? the code 1/2 dispute
As a numpty (learning) im thinking of exceptions to it being a code 1,would it be if the CU's in a lockable enclosure (with with an equal ip rating?) with the key only available to instructed,competent or skilled person(s)?.........or a barrier in place?
But then you have overhead gantry cranes that have live exposed conductive parts and thats acceptable because there out of reach? or overhead busbars supplying industrial machinery
Is it simply a code 1 because the CU does not meet the given ip rating stated in 7671?
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing written down in statute or in BS 7671 that outlines what can and can't be given a code 1. It is up to the person carrying out the inspection to decide whether there is any immediate danger present and code accordingly. For me, I find it is never black or white when giving something a C1, there can sometimes be a lot of different factors involved.

Anyway, as Glenn said, we've hijacked this post enough. There are plenty of heated debates and informative threads involving PIR coding on this forum if you want to involve yourself :D A quick search will throw up some quite interesting scenarios :)
 
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