Bathroom Fan/Light

[MAD SPARK]

Dont know if anyones ever seen one of those fans with a downlight built in to it........??.. I cant find a link to one of the web.

Anyway. It has a transformer for the light and then the fan just gets connected seperatly 230V....

Does the fan need to have a fan isolator? It will be on its own independant switch on a simple on/off and the light incorporated in it will come on with the rest of the downlights.

Hope someone can help.

Cheers

 

[electrotec]

Theres been changes to bathroom areas in the 17th edition i am sure you need to fit an isolator anyway as per the 16th but if its in the new zone 1 it may have to be RCD protected as well. hope this helps

 

[DonaldJ]

Why have the fan on a separate switch? Why not get one with an over-run timer and have it come on with the lights. that way, when someone takes a shower there's no risk of them not using the fan.

 

[Spudmiester]

The fan isolator is for isolation for maintainance purposes, not for general on/off switching.

It should be three pole, to break the line, switched line, and neutral.

I used to fit them in the loft next to the fan, or if there was no loft space, above the bathroom door on the outside.

 

[MAD SPARK]

You cant get them with a run over timer......not those fans anyway.

Is it still necessary for an isolator?

I dont want them coming on with the lights its well annoying. Getting up in the middle of the night, turn the lights on and the fan comes on - not really my thing.

I know it is ok to have it on it's own switch because i've seen it done in new builds - also i have never seen fan isolators in new builds if the fans are on there own switch???...have things changed?

 

[Ross Trician]

My understanding of it is that to comply with the 17th it needs to be protected by RCD.
also there is only a need for an "isolation switch" if there is no window in the room it is being fitted.

hope this helps.

 

[MAD SPARK]

Thats brilliant, Thankyou

It will be RCD protected anyway because the switch wires etc in the rest of the circuit are buried in the wall at less than 50mm

 

[Cirrus]

Also, switching the fan on with the lights ain't too useful at this time of the year when it is so light at night / in morning and lights may not be needed.

 

[DonaldJ]

Also, switching the fan on with the lights ain't too useful at this time of the year when it is so light at night / in morning and lights may not be needed.

Good point although I'm picturing my downstairs shower room with no windows and a need for a light on every visit.

Good point re going the bog too. Again though, it's no issue in a downstairs shower room where there is no noise intrusion into the bedrooms.

For some reason I had a picture of my own house in my head!

 

[Spudmiester]

My understanding of it is that to comply with the 17th it needs to be protected by RCD.
also there is only a need for an "isolation switch" if there is no window in the room it is being fitted.

hope this helps.

Just curious, and not having a dig at anyone, but what does having a window/no window in the room have to do with fan isolators?

 

[MAD SPARK]

Maybe something do with the fact that you can still have light in there with the fan isolated maybe?...i deno just a guess

 

[Shakey]

Theres been changes to bathroom areas in the 17th edition i am sure you need to fit an isolator anyway as per the 16th but if its in the new zone 1 it may have to be RCD protected as well. hope this helps

There is no 'new zone 1'

Zones 0,1 & 2 are the same, just zone 3 has gone

and the requirement for all circuits in the bathroom to be an RCD is irellevant to zones

 

[Had8Lives]

Here is a link to one, I think Denmans wholesalers can supply them.

4 INCH SHOWER FAN & LIGHT & TIMER - Extractor Fans - AllAboutElectrics.co.uk

 

[MAD SPARK]

Yeah thats it.

I've asked this question elsewhere on the web and there seems to be so many different answers. Some say yes you definetly have to and others say only if it has no window and some say it needs a switched fused spur - it also says this in the instructions.???????????

HELP....i dont know which answer is right.. It would be better if i need no isolator at all then i can just go ahead as i wanted.

if someone can shed some light on this with some form of regulation or something it would be great.

also the lights are also wired in twin and earth shall i put a small junction box on and wire the fan and the transformer in flex?

 

[Roger]

Hi there,

Does a bathroom fan have to have a triple pole isolator ? does it have to be outside the room ? House I was at today had no means of isolating the Fan so when testing i could not do bathroom lights as extractor was buried in wall and not easy to access and break wires to isolate.I guess I could remove wires from lights and kill it that way.I have to test lighting circuit so I have to kill fan, otherwise motor winding will give strange readings with insulation resistance.
What is the requirement for a fan ?,is it required by part P to be isolated ? the bathroom only has a skylight no window for info.
Thanks,

 

[The Truth]

My understanding of it is that to comply with the 17th it needs to be protected by RCD.
also there is only a need for an "isolation switch" if there is no window in the room it is being fitted.

hope this helps.

that is ridiculous! windows?????!! get a grip man.

Yeah thats it.

I've asked this question elsewhere on the web and there seems to be so many different answers. Some say yes you definetly have to and others say only if it has no window and some say it needs a switched fused spur - it also says this in the instructions.???????????

HELP....i dont know which answer is right.. It would be better if i need no isolator at all then i can just go ahead as i wanted.

if someone can shed some light on this with some form of regulation or something it would be great.

also the lights are also wired in twin and earth shall i put a small junction box on and wire the fan and the transformer in flex?

whoever is talking about windows and wiring regulations in the same sentence IS OFF THERE HEAD.

its this simple my friend....

1. if its a timer fan ( mounted in loft ) it needs a 3 pole isolator located outside zones 1 and 2 or in the loft / outside etc

2. if its a timer fan with light you need the 3 pole isolator AND 30mA RCD protection ( bath regs )

3. if its a timer fan in the wall you need 3 pole isolator and RCD

4. if its a fan in the wall that only comes on with the light and has no perm supply then you only need RCD protection.

 

[neil2jo]

Dont know if anyones ever seen one of those fans with a downlight built in to it........??.. I cant find a link to one of the web.

Anyway. It has a transformer for the light and then the fan just gets connected seperatly 230V....

Does the fan need to have a fan isolator? It will be on its own independant switch on a simple on/off and the light incorporated in it will come on with the rest of the downlights.

Hope someone can help.

Cheers

Their sold through screwfix/elecricfix...see their web site, they often have PDF files to download

 

[DYCHE4230]

Yeah thats it.

I've asked this question elsewhere on the web and there seems to be so many different answers. Some say yes you definetly have to and others say only if it has no window and some say it needs a switched fused spur - it also says this in the instructions.???????????

HELP....i dont know which answer is right.. It would be better if i need no isolator at all then i can just go ahead as i wanted.

if someone can shed some light on this with some form of regulation or something it would be great.

also the lights are also wired in twin and earth shall i put a small junction box on and wire the fan and the transformer in flex?

The requirement in the instuctions for a fused spur maybe because the fan has to be protected by a 3 amp fuse?

 

[andyb]

4. if its a fan in the wall that only comes on with the light and has no perm supply then you only need RCD protection.

Not realy truth, all fans need in isolator. One with no permenant supply will just need a double pole isolator but it still needs one.

 

[paulrayner]

screw fix
Manrose Shower Light & Extractor Fan Kit 100mm - NoLinkingToThis, Where the Trade Buys

& put an isolator on it u can always turn the timer down on it so it dont run so long

 

[The Truth]

Not realy truth, all fans need in isolator. One with no permenant supply will just need a double pole isolator but it still needs one.

if the fan has no perm supply and only comes on with the light...then the light switch is the isolator. It can be turned off for mechanical maintenance that way. Does a down lighter need a DP isolator? i would obviously fit one anyway before i branded a cowboy

 

[andyb]

I agree with your reasoning Truth, but the light switch does not isolate the neutral which the regs call for (a downlight is not motor)

 

[Roger]

Hi picked up on this thread about bathroom fans.Can you clarify for me,must a bathroom fan have a isolation DP switch outside the room ?,or can it be inside.I lent my regs book to a friend and have yet to see it return.Current house at the moment has a fan in a downstairs bathroom feed from the lights,no means of isolation.
Regards,
Roger

 

[andyb]

Going by the reg's it can be fitted outside zones.

 

[The Truth]

I agree with your reasoning Truth, but the light switch does not isolate the neutral which the regs call for (a downlight is not motor)

i'm hanging up my screw drivers

 

[andyb]

Truth, we all know a 4'' manrose fan can rip a mans arm off.

I'm with you truth, in my own house and for people I know I do not fit an isolator if they so request, what's the pir non compliance? code 4? Hardly a hanging offence.

Otherwise I fit one, unfortunately a 4'' extract fan has been swept into the same clasification as 'motors' and 132.15.2 applies.

To hell with it, where are you hanging your screwdrivers? I'll hang mine next to them and we'll go for a pint.

 

[The Truth]

its no laughing matter andy..... i could have really hurt someone..fitting a vicious 4inch manrose in a room WITHOUT a window or a switch.. i appreciate your support but i cannot go day to day knowing that im a code 4. im flying to close to the edge goose

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Fan isolators are normally outside the room and are 3 pole Live Neutral and earth, this is to enable maintenance in rooms without windows. Even if the room does have windows a3 pole switch is still required to isolate the motor in case of emergency.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[The Truth]

what is this window obsession everyone has?!!! who started this ?? own up. am i being retarded here ?but please what has a window got to do with mechanical maintenance or isolation of an electric fan. i want a proper answer!

 

[Spudnik]

I seem to remember is was in the EGBR or similar.

Cat be 100% sure though.

 

[andyb]

I can understand the precuation with windows vista, but with windows 7 being more reliable you can do without the isolator.

 

[m4tty]

Ive got XP ja recon im ok without an isolator or should i go wholesalers 2mo 2 get 1

 

[Roger]

Thanks for al the useful help !

So to summarise I do not have to have one and it can go as a code 4 on the certificate with not much to worry about.If i did fit one it has to be a isolater that only switched live conductors so 2 pole.No requirement to switch earth surely.A 3 pole is required to switch both live feeds,the permanent one for the overun and the switch live to start it when the light come one.

Thanks

 

[The Truth]

Ive got XP ja recon im ok without an isolator or should i go wholesalers 2mo 2 get 1

hmm i think a pull switch is most reliable option if your going to stay with windows xp. that way wet hands stay away from the desktop...good practice in my opinion

 

[andyb]

Thanks for al the useful help !

So to summarise I do not have to have one and it can go as a code 4 on the certificate with not much to worry about.If i did fit one it has to be a isolater that only switched live conductors so 2 pole.No requirement to switch earth surely.A 3 pole is required to switch both live feeds,the permanent one for the overun and the switch live to start it when the light come one.

Thanks

Roger, you do have to have one, the code 4 refers to what you would put on a pir if you were testing an installation and found there not to be one for that installation. You would complete an eic.

 

[Roger]

Thank you Andy, much appreciated.

 

[haj]

what is this window obsession everyone has?!!! who started this ?? own up. am i being retarded here ?but please what has a window got to do with mechanical maintenance or isolation of an electric fan. i want a proper answer!

My NIC man said if the room has a window you can isolate the whole lighting circuit and still see to work on the fan with the light from the window (that is if there is a break in the clouds) so he says.
Regards Haj

 

[DYCHE4230]

And its not nightime