UK Can I ask for some career advice

[Paris2]

I am wanting some advice as someone looking to get in to the industry.
Hopefully a couple of you don't mind sparing a bit of time helping me get my head straight.

I currently work in IT, and whilst it's a decent career, I'm finding more and more that it's not for me.
So I am looking at options of a career change, and this one interests me.

I have done some reading online, looked at courses/schemes etc and think I am making some progress in to understanding what is required.
I've read through this site: Morris Services - Getting Started - https://www.morrisservices.co.uk/gettingstarted.asp which I've seen referenced here.

What I would like to know is if my plan is feasible, or even possible, before I invest any more time and effort.

Plan:
Step 1. Start out with a Domestic Installer course (is this where everyone starts?)

Step 2. Get a job as an electricians mate/helper.
Initially it would be ideal to do this part time (even working for free) just to gain experience. Whilst still doing my current day job at reduced hours.

Step 3. After a year or so progress to the next step qualification wise.
If all is going well move to spend more of my time on electrical work over my current work (IT).

Step 4. Eventually quit my current job and start working full time once qualified.

I'm 32 and have a child and a mortgage, so the apprentice route just won't work for me.
I am very realistic, but would like to think I can make the career change fully in perhaps 2-3 years.

Does all of this sound doable, or is this pie in the sky and I should quit before I've started?

 

[telectrix]

short course will only allow you to work in domestic. whatever quals they give you will not count in the industry for industrial, commercial, or site work. tou can do the "prope"r quals evenings or 1 day a week at a local college. 2356, parts 2 and 3, nvq3 and am2. takes about 3 years. and you need to be working ( even as a mate) to complete a portfolio for nvq. loads of posts on here about the subject.

 

[pc1966]

None of us can answer what is best for you, only give you some advice about how to get in to electrical work or to help out with specific topics if you need some extra tuiton (and ask nicely). If you start doing some of it in a domestic situation you will quickly find out if it is something you like doing.

All jobs have good and bad points, if you have worked for an "IT hell desk" you are probably prepared for the world outside and the ups and downs!

 

[Paris2]

short course will only allow you to work in domestic. whatever quals they give you will not count in the industry for industrial, commercial, or site work. tou can do the "prope"r quals evenings or 1 day a week at a local college. 2356, parts 2 and 3, nvq3 and am2. takes about 3 years. and you need to be working ( even as a mate) to complete a portfolio for nvq. loads of posts on here about the subject.

Thanks for the response.
Whilst it means I won't be able to do industrial/commercial to begin with. Would this at least be a viable route towards that?
[automerge]1587068764[/automerge]

None of us can answer what is best for you, only give you some advice about how to get in to electrical work or to help out with specific topics if you need some extra tuiton (and ask nicely). If you start doing some of it in a domestic situation you will quickly find out if it is something you like doing.

All jobs have good and bad points, if you have worked for an "IT hell desk" you are probably prepared for the world outside and the ups and downs!

IT Hell desk would pretty much describe my daily life at the moment.

 

[telectrix]

Thanks for the response.
Whilst it means I won't be able to do industrial/commercial to begin with. Would this at least be a viable route towards that?
[automerge]1587068764[/automerge]


IT Hell desk would pretty much describe my daily life at the moment.

A short course will cost you in the region of £6000 and will give you little or no practical training, then you would be let loose to practice on an unsuspecting public. Better to put that £6k towards getting industry regognised quals,

 

[derek]

Thanks for the response.
Whilst it means I won't be able to do industrial/commercial to begin with. Would this at least be a viable route towards that?
[automerge]1587068764[/automerge]


IT Hell desk would pretty much describe my daily life at the moment.

I don't think the domestic installer route is the best way into commercial or industrial work. Industrial standards are far higher than a lot of domestic work these days; there are some excellent, conscientious sparks in the domestic arena but you are far more likely to end up learning from someone who will teach you bad practices. Getting it done quickly and cheaply seems to often be the norm in domestic and even some commercial jobs as well.
For most commercial and industrial jobs you'll need a JIB gold card which means a theory qualification such as the city and guilds 2365 and NVQ 2356 plus AM2, or this can all be included in the NVQ 2357.
Apprenticeship is still the best way in. You'll have to apply to hundreds of engineering and m&e companies, both large and small, to stand a chance of getting a start. Evening college is a good way in as well, while learning as much as you can about cable containment installation practices. YouTube and manufactures' websites and forums such as this, all provide excellent guides.
Once you are familiar with the methods you can try for work as an electrician's mate/electrical labourer. Alternatively you could get work as a general labourer and pick up tips while working in the trade and building up a network of contacts. Best to get an ECS card or a CSCS card to cover basic health and safety on site.
[automerge]1587113720[/automerge]
Sorry I should add that my background is in electrical installation, there is also an equally potentially interesting career in electrical maintenance which can include anything from BMS and HVAC in hospitals to PLCs in manufacturing and process control. If you can program then PLC programming might be worth considering, there are many control and automation companies. Also Schneider are often recruiting trainee BMS engineers. Security systems, fire alarms, AV and home automation, all provide specialist fields to excel in. Then there are those who work on HV distribution etc. the list is endless really.
[automerge]1587115222[/automerge]
If I had my time again I'd be looking at mechatronics, but I currently work in the water industry and am trying to learn more about process control.

 

[Paris2]

Thanks for the info, lots to think about for sure.

If I wanted to just get in to Domestic, and potentially commercial further down the line. Would Domestic be a good place to start?

Or is Domestic just a saturated market meaning I won't have much luck gaining employment?

 

[KennyKen]

You’ll be more suited to PLC’s and utilise existing skills for logic programming and function block edits. In the eyes of a prospective employer of course.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The problem with all jobs/professions is that we always think the grass is greener on the other side, have a look on U-Tube for some of the chaps who post about domestic installations and see if that is really what you want to swap your office sit down mostly based job for.

 

[telectrix]

Thanks for the info, lots to think about for sure.

If I wanted to just get in to Domestic, and potentially commercial further down the line. Would Domestic be a good place to start?

Or is Domestic just a saturated market meaning I won't have much luck gaining employment?

the domestic market is saturated with boil in the bag short course 5 week wonders, all in a race to the bottom, undercutting prices. glad i'm semi-retired now and just picking out small specialist and repairjobs , maintenance, fault finding etc., where less experienced guys can't hack it.

 

[Paris2]

Thanks everyone.

I'm going to continue to do some research before making any decisions.
[automerge]1587124966[/automerge]

The problem with all jobs/professions is that we always think the grass is greener on the other side, have a look on U-Tube for some of the chaps who post about domestic installations and see if that is really what you want to swap your office sit down mostly based job for.

This is so very true

 

[derek]

If you wanted to start in domestic I'd still start with an industry recognised qualification like the c&g2365 level 2 and 3 if I were you, it covers electrical and magnetic theory and circuit design, and will give you a solid understanding to back up any practical skills you later develop.It can be done at evening college which can fit around your current job, hopefully allowing you to put money aside, as the construction industry is definitely one where you need savings to cover you for lack of work due to delayed projects or recession and winter can be lean as well. You can then go on to complete your NVQ level 3 at a later date when you start the variety of work that is required.

 

[Paris2]

Thanks Derek.

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

C&G 2365 Level 2&3 Diploma Course Package | Tradeskills4u

C&G 2365 Level 2&3 Diploma Course Package - book this electrical course package and receive an additional wiring regulations course.

www.tradeskills4u.co.uk

 

[derek]

Thanks Derek.

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

C&G 2365 Level 2&3 Diploma Course Package | Tradeskills4u

C&G 2365 Level 2&3 Diploma Course Package - book this electrical course package and receive an additional wiring regulations course.

www.tradeskills4u.co.uk

That is quite expensive but it is the right course. I had a quick look and Brian Scaddon associates do it cheaper, not sure if there is an evening option though. Have you looked at your local technical college?

 

[telectrix]

Thanks Derek.

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

C&G 2365 Level 2&3 Diploma Course Package | Tradeskills4u

C&G 2365 Level 2&3 Diploma Course Package - book this electrical course package and receive an additional wiring regulations course.

www.tradeskills4u.co.uk

that'sthe one, but as derek says, shop around for not just price, but also to siut your availability to attend.

 

[Paris2]

Ok thanks, I appreciate the guidance.

I’ve not done any looking around just yet. Just trying to make sure I am looking around for the right thing first.
Now assuming I did this course, would this be adequate to get in to start working for someone? Are these qualifications what is generally looked for by an employer? (Obviously experience is great too but that’ll come in time).

 

[JAWS]

Ok thanks, I appreciate the guidance.

I’ve not done any looking around just yet. Just trying to make sure I am looking around for the right thing first.
Now assuming I did this course, would this be adequate to get in to start working for someone? Are these qualifications what is generally looked for by an employer? (Obviously experience is great too but that’ll come in time).

Maybe, maybe not... A lot of us trainee's are happy to work for free Paris2 with the level 2 and 3 and 18th to get that experience as its worth its weight in gold & you can ring round, email as many electrican companies as you want you may be lucky to get a couple of replies and may be even more lucky to be offered a place but its proper hard to get in the industry

The other alternative is sign up for agencies but with them asking for experience its tough.

This is one of the main reasons IMHO why many people take the Domestic installer route.

 

[derek]

I wouldn't work for free, if the other people on site find out you are undercutting them you'll get a lot of grief.
[automerge]1587187229[/automerge]
It is easy when you've done proper research to blag your way into a big site via an agency. I've worked with loads of clueless electricians mates and 'sparks' over the years, if they seem keen to learn I usually help them out a bit as we all have to start somewhere.

 

[derek]

I should also add that by working for free you would be contributing to the race to the bottom for prices, allowing the electrician you are working with to undercut their rivals. This drives down prices and means reduced profit margins for everyone and will affect you when you are qualified/experienced enough to go out on your own.

 

[Andy78]

I should also add that by working for free you would be contributing to the race to the bottom for prices, allowing the electrician you are working with to undercut their rivals. This drives down prices and means reduced profit margins for everyone and will affect you when you are qualified/experienced enough to go out on your own.

Plus psychologically you devalue your own worth in the minds of others and your own mind. Not a good way to start out.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Not at all sure, but working for free may be breaking some tax or employment law on behalf of who you are working for/with, perhaps it even comes under slave trade legislation, additionally if your sudo employer buys your lunch or breakfast you are receiving benefit in kind.

 

[Paris2]

Ok so I’m going to look in to the C&G 2365.
Is this going to be worth my time/effort however (and money)?
I’m getting the impression it could be a doomed venture from the start.

 

[derek]

It will only be a doomed venture if you don't follow through, either because you are not financially prepared to take a reduction in income while you learn or because you don't put the effort in to make the career change. It isn't going to be easy and no one is going to come knocking on your door once you pass the c&g2365. I suppose you need to do your research and compare your current earnings and situation with what you could earn in around 5 years time, but don't believe the sales pitch from the training providers that all electricians are on £50k plus a year. Just look on CV library and other job boards to see what the annual wages in your area are. The hourly rates are typically for subcontractors and won't include holiday pay, pension, tools and company van, so that all needs to be factored into your calculations.

 

[MattBaigent]

I did my 2365 level 2 at tradeskills4u in Crawley, I planned to do my level 3 soon but with the covid situation that has been out in the back burner.

All I can say is that the course is amazing, they are all amazing instructors there and really help you get an understanding of the role.

obviously, the hands on skills they teach you is very basic as you can imagine only have a few weeks to get you up to the standard knowledge wise. But the real learning is when you leave and work for someone. I was lucky that I actually had a lot of electrical work that needed doing at my own home so gained a little more experience there but I am still way off feeling comfortable enough to do a large job for a paying customer.

 

[Paris2]

Thank you Derek, that’s all very helpful.
I’ll do some more research and make sure I know what to expect.
[automerge]1587309152[/automerge]

I did my 2365 level 2 at tradeskills4u in Crawley, I planned to do my level 3 soon but with the covid situation that has been out in the back burner.

All I can say is that the course is amazing, they are all amazing instructors there and really help you get an understanding of the role.

obviously, the hands on skills they teach you is very basic as you can imagine only have a few weeks to get you up to the standard knowledge wise. But the real learning is when you leave and work for someone. I was lucky that I actually had a lot of electrical work that needed doing at my own home so gained a little more experience there but I am still way off feeling comfortable enough to do a large job for a paying customer.

Did you have prior experience before starting the level 2?
Do you have any plans or prospects for once level 3 is complete?

 

[MattBaigent]

Thank you Derek, that’s all very helpful.
I’ll do some more research and make sure I know what to expect.
[automerge]1587309152[/automerge]


Did you have prior experience before starting the level 2?
Do you have any plans or prospects for once level 3 is complete?

I have been a data engineer for about 2 years and that didn’t help at all for any of the theory parts of the work, the practical however was similar. For example, installing the containment, running cables within containment and making your work neat (nice even bends, clips same distance apart and the same way round etc.

I initially planned on working for an electrician for a few months before doing my level 3 but I have found it hard to get the work with only a level 2 so I will be doing my level 3 right away and that will make me more employable. I have even offered my services for free to some people and they did not seem interested. Whether they assumed I don’t have a clue about the job and would be more of a hindrance. ?‍

 

[davesparks]

A lot of us dont want people who volunteer to work for free because that just means a lot of extra hassle for us.
Volunteers are a pain as you have no control over them, you can't set their start or finish times, they can turn up or not as they feel like, they can be a grey area for insurance.

Plus they just take up your time when you are trying to get a job done with no real chance of getting something in return. If you take on an apprentice then as they get better over the years you start to make money on them, a volunteer for a few months just weighs you down.

 

[JAWS]

I have been a data engineer for about 2 years and that didn’t help at all for any of the theory parts of the work, the practical however was similar. For example, installing the containment, running cables within containment and making your work neat (nice even bends, clips same distance apart and the same way round etc.

I initially planned on working for an electrician for a few months before doing my level 3 but I have found it hard to get the work with only a level 2 so I will be doing my level 3 right away and that will make me more employable. I have even offered my services for free to some people and they did not seem interested. Whether they assumed I don’t have a clue about the job and would be more of a hindrance. ?‍

I agree I think its more of a hindrance. Luckily enough I do have a trade to fall back on which pays well but picking up a trowel again I will be totally gutted.

 

[MattBaigent]

A lot of us dont want people who volunteer to work for free because that just means a lot of extra hassle for us.
Volunteers are a pain as you have no control over them, you can't set their start or finish times, they can turn up or not as they feel like, they can be a grey area for insurance.

Plus they just take up your time when you are trying to get a job done with no real chance of getting something in return. If you take on an apprentice then as they get better over the years you start to make money on them, a volunteer for a few months just weighs you down.

yeah, I guess that makes sense. how would you suggest someone trying to get into the industry but an apprenticeship is not an option? I'm going to just do my level 3 and hope that people will be more willing to have me work for them?

 

[davesparks]

how would you suggest someone trying to get into the industry but an apprenticeship is not an option?

I know this is going to sound harsh but I would suggest picking another industry to get in to.
Electrical installation is a technical and practical job which requires both knowledge and experience.

You can gain all of the knowledge in the world about the theory and how a new modern installation works and how things are installed today, but that won't help you one bit when you've got to do a job in the real world where a 20 year old installation needs altering.

A formal apprenticeship isn't the only way to become a good electrician, but you do need a good few years of working with experienced electrcians.

 

[JAWS]

I know this is going to sound harsh but I would suggest picking another industry to get in to.
Electrical installation is a technical and practical job which requires both knowledge and experience.

You can gain all of the knowledge in the world about the theory and how a new modern installation works and how things are installed today, but that won't help you one bit when you've got to do a job in the real world where a 20 year old installation needs altering.

A formal apprenticeship isn't the only way to become a good electrician, but you do need a good few years of working with experienced electrcians.

But that's not saying it cannot be done as proven with many forum members who've made a great success within the industry with no prior experience working years along side other electricans.

 

[Zerax]

Plus they just take up your time when you are trying to get a job done with no real chance of getting something in return. If you take on an apprentice then as they get better over the years you start to make money on them, a volunteer for a few months just weighs you down.

You must have had a bad experience in the past to paint so many people in such a bad light as that... In my experience, it all depends on the individual... it's difficult to know if someone will be a help or a hindrance.

I've worked with some guys who, on paper will be useless, but you show 'em once how to do something and they get it... Brilliant !! From Day 1 they save me time. Then there are others who have all sorts of qualifications, certificates for this, certificates for that etc.... and they'll a waste of time !

A friend of mine who runs a small business (unrelated to electrical) is mega busy with work right now... and was offered the help of someone from a totally unrelated background. He was thinking like you... more hindrance than help... but they were amazing !! Took to the work from the off... he wishes he could get another 2 like that !!
[automerge]1587336005[/automerge]

...how would you suggest someone trying to get into the industry but an apprenticeship is not an option?

Unfortunately, the electrical industry entry is geared towards an apprenticeship, which in turn is geared towards you being a snotty nosed teenager, who knows nothing and still lives at home. As has been said already... it's not impossible to get into it later, just alot harder.

You have to have perseverance and it helps if you know the right people... to give you that opportunity.

 

[davesparks]

You must have had a bad experience in the past to paint so many people in such a bad light as that... In my experience, it all depends on the individual... it's difficult to know if someone will be a help or a hindrance.

Yes I have made the mistake of letting 3 of these career change cowboys work with me, none of them were any good.

One of them didn't even know the difference between an HSS drill and a masonry bit! I learned that from my grandfather before I was 10.

 

[MattBaigent]

Yes I have made the mistake of letting 3 of these career change cowboys work with me, none of them were any good.

One of them didn't even know the difference between an HSS drill and a masonry bit! I learned that from my grandfather before I was 10.

Unfortunately there are people out there like that so I will just have to prove myself.

A bloke that was on my course had never touched a drill before. Any type of practical work for him was just dangerous and unfortunately he completed his course and is now potentially doing work for people.

On my first day doing data I was working with a guy that didn’t even know how to work a ratchet screwdriver or what and SDS drill is and he had been in the industry for a few years already so I’ve no idea how he managed to get anywhere.

 

[Zerax]

One of them didn't even know the difference between an HSS drill and a masonry bit! I learned that from my grandfather before I was 10.

Crikey... you were a late starter then ?

 

[Paris2]

Thanks for all the input.
I’ll be looking more in to the course and contact my local colleges to see what they offer, hopefully I can fit it all around my current work.

One last question for now. Is the 2365 the best way to start learning and working.
Comparing the course to the domestic installer course, there seems to be quite a few ‘qualifications’ gained from the domestic installer, are these all requirements to get out working or is the 2365 enough on its own?

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

You have looked at Morris services, I did my 18th and 2391 with James at Morris services. Decent guy who won't fleece you or tell you a pile of crap. Give him a call and ask him your questions.

 

[7029 dave]

We all have our own personal journeys, how we began/started in this industry.
I was 15 (not snotty nosed) living at home obviously with my parents.
My dad's friend had an electrical shop selling/repairing appliances etc.
Also a contracting side,I started as Saturday boy and school holidays.
That was 41years ago, omg time has passed quickly.

 

[JAWS]

Thanks for all the input.
I’ll be looking more in to the course and contact my local colleges to see what they offer, hopefully I can fit it all around my current work.

One last question for now. Is the 2365 the best way to start learning and working.
Comparing the course to the domestic installer course, there seems to be quite a few ‘qualifications’ gained from the domestic installer, are these all requirements to get out working or is the 2365 enough on its own?

On a Domestic Installer course that's start with this one Domestic Electrician Course (Domestic Installer Course) - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/domestic-installer-course.

The C&G 2393 is not really a qualification that carries any weight its just understanding & reading through this http://www.-----------.co.uk/PartP/PartP-England.pdf

The 4141-01 more or less the same where it doesnt carry any weight. You'll receive this certificate after attending their workshop for 5 days

The 2392 is a level 2 testing qualification, although the qualification itself doesnt carry any weight it will be a great benefit for those to improve their testing skills or those want to brush up before going for the 2391 course. ( The 2392 looks good)

The 2382 is the latest 18th regs exam, this does carry weight as you'll need this.

So in theory most people who take this course will go on to work from themselves and join a CPC scheme where they will require you to have passed the latest regs exam the 18th edition, you will then be assessed on site where you'll be given tasks to fulfil to which you either pass or fail.

So to put it simply from an employers point they will not recognise these as relevant qualifications or the 18th edition just on its own.

Going on to the level 2 and level 3 2365, these are must on your journey to become an industry recognised electrican along with the AM2 & finally NVQ. (Gold Card)
Employers will look at this qualification as the relevant qualifications to employ you as a skilled worker.

As you've asked before regarding employment with the 2365 level 2 and level 3 this will carry some weight because as an employer they will see you're working towards your NVQ & may offer you an improver position.


Many people who do their part-time level 2 & level 3 2365 will be applying for many mates positions whist studying.

End of the day whatever you decide I would recommend starting the level 2. On ours we had to do 25 Saturdays that's 5 weeks of practical compared to 1 week practical on a DI course also you'll learn to make off different cable types, steel conduit, trunking making different sets, using stocks & Dies, etc something you wont learn on the DI course.

Also there's around 16 exams throughout the whole of the level 2 and 3 from online mock exams to written exam to practical exams.

And finally many people do go on a Domestic installer course, start up their own business & make a great success of it its all down that individual so dont think I am trying to put you off I'm not, its down to you what journey you want to take.

PS.. Just wanted to add on your level 2 2365 you will learn how to test initial verification on an install & when you move to level 3 2365 you'll go on to fault finding

 

[Paris2]

Thank you JAWS, that was very helpful.

I don’t think I would be comfortable doing just a DI course and going it alone. So the 2365 is going to be the way to go, I’m much more interested in the long run and building experience and qualifications, hopefully follow it with the NVQ.

I’ve seen one or two ‘distance learner’ courses that may be able to keep me in full time employment for the time being too.