Cancellation rights trap.

[Stevesplatto]

Just got out of a small claims court. A technicality just cost me £750!
Goes like this:
I provided an estimate for remedial works left over by a previous electrician who was sacked bt the client. Dont usually take these on but his wife was 9 months prenantand they were desperate to get the bedroom completed.
Raised an estimate with a strong caveat that there may well be more works on further investigation (and there was, shocking work). Started the next day with an email acceptance.
2 1/2 days in with 1/2 a day to go the client sacks me. I raise an invoice for the work done. The client pays the bill under protest and takes out a small claims saying that under the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 because I didnt give information on cancellation rights I have to refund him the money for my labour so far.
The judge very apologetically agreed on legal grounds and I have to pay the client £750 incl court costs!

Most of my work starts within 14 days and a fair proportion is within 2-3 days of agreeing the estimate. Does anyone have any wording that would satisfy the regulations for work that is cancelled after it has comenced?
Cheers

 

[Leesparkykent]

Just got out of a small claims court. A technicality just cost me £750!
Goes like this:
I provided an estimate for remedial works left over by a previous electrician who was sacked bt the client. Dont usually take these on but his wife was 9 months prenantand they were desperate to get the bedroom completed.
Raised an estimate with a strong caveat that there may well be more works on further investigation (and there was, shocking work). Started the next day with an email acceptance.
2 1/2 days in with 1/2 a day to go the client sacks me. I raise an invoice for the work done. The client pays the bill under protest and takes out a small claims saying that under the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 because I didnt give information on cancellation rights I have to refund him the money for my labour so far.
The judge very apologetically agreed on legal grounds and I have to pay the client £750 incl court costs!

Most of my work starts within 14 days and a fair proportion is within 2-3 days of agreeing the estimate. Does anyone have any wording that would satisfy the regulations for work that is cancelled after it has comenced?
Cheers

What a piece of s***! People like this really boil my wee. Can't you pay them £1 a week or something to really pee them off?

 

[Christopher Bernard]

Might be of use, if you make a statement on invoices (maybe just for this type of work) which covers the basics you see here maybe that might suffice in order not to get stung in future.

Cancelling building or decorating work - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/getting-home-improvements-done/cancelling-building-or-decorating-work/

 

[Octopus]

Out of interest, why did the client sack you with only 1/2 day to go?

Sounds like they did this deliberately.

Did you keep them up to date with the additional costs?

 

[snowhead]

To the O.P, were you legally represented in the small claims?

So this customer has now sacked 2 Electricians and had the last 2 1/2 days of work (and materials ?) for free.
How much did they get out of the first one I wonder?

 

[Spoon]

Can't you pay them £1 a week or something to really pee them off?

I'd go with this.

 

[buzzlightyear]

bar stools ,they did it to get job of nothing.

 

[buzzlightyear]

what did he sack you for ?

 

[static zap]

So this customer has now sacked 2 Electricians and had the last 2 1/2 days of work (and materials ?) for free.

Sounds like the court have had the Wool pulled over thier eyes . It needs to be stopped !
( Do we have the EU to thank for this ? )

 

[buzzlightyear]

send me the details of the A88hole ,IL put in right ,in a coffin .
with some marigold flowers in is hole with head face facing down.
I will not take prisoner's.one thing I cant stand tip toeing a round customers .

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Know a plumber in Bristol who had a customer do something very similar, thought he was clever taking plumber to court and getting the money paid back under similar daft laws as above, sacked him after the boiler and heating system was in and certified and about to start the ensuite shower rooms
Ending up costing him several hundred quid.
Now i do not condone this but turned out the customer was renting out the flat on air bnb, seems somebody booked the flat and copied the key! somebody later stole the boiler! not sure who would do such a thing - must be scrap metal thieves.. they also saw fit to put expanding foam into the pipes and loosen joints. also splashed bright red paint on all the white walls! Would have cost a lot of money to put right... karma is a funny thing and always comes back round..

 

[Richard Burns]

Not good, whilst the law is there to protect the public from unfair tradesmen it can be misused, as in this case, to fleece innocent businesses which should not be possible.

The attached pdf (if the forum allows it) is the schedules 2 and 3 from the legislation that details the information you need to supply.

If you supply a fully featured quote or estimate with your business details on it then the following additional wording could be used to cover the provision of an off premises service contract.
However it is critical that you asses the information needed and ensure you are covered for what you do. This is just an example.

Right to cancel

You have the right to cancel this contract within 14 days without giving any reason. The cancellation period will expire after 14 days from the day of acceptance.
To do so you must clearly inform the company of your decision to cancel this contract (by email or equivalent) before the cancellation period expires.
If you cancel (apart from deductions for loss of value from handling beyond establishing the nature, characteristics and function of the goods and delivery charges above standard delivery) the company will reimburse all payments received from the customer within 14 days or less of the return of goods, if applicable, or the receipt of the cancellation notice, by the original method of payment unless agreed otherwise. Goods must be sent back by the customer within 14 days of the date of cancellation, you will have to bear the direct cost of returning such goods.
If service is requested to start during the cancellation period the customer will pay, in relation to the cost of the contract, a proportional amount relating to the work done until the cancellation took place.

 

[Octopus]

^^ so we should give that schedule to everybody we give a quote or estimate to?

Madness.

 

[buzzlightyear]

delete

 

[Richard Burns]

^^ so we should give that schedule to everybody we give a quote or estimate to?

Madness.

If you do not provide the information about the right to cancel then there is by law no limitation on when a customer can cancel or the amount they can avoid paying.
If you have provided all the information and communicated by email, not just by phone, then the law does provide the protection intended to the customer and does not leave you open to abuse.

 

[Octopus]

^^ So a quote to Mrs Jones to replace 1 outside light needs this paperwork .............. total madness.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Mrs jones, get a text from me or email .

 

[buzzlightyear]

any big job estimate, and get the customer to sign .

 

[happysteve]

I was looking into this last week (slow week), took me a couple of days to get my head round it. The main issues are:

1. Only relevant to consumers (not businesses).
2. You need to tell them about their right to cancel. Failing to do so can result in the customer effectively doing you over, as per the original post.
3. The right to cancel does not apply in a couple of circumstances relevant to our trade: (a) when the customer invites you into their home to do urgent repair work, and (b) anything "made to measure."
4. If you do work within the 14 day period, (and you've told them of their right to cancel) then they can still cancel at any time, but they must pay you for (a) your time, (b) any materials you can't remove without damaging, (c) a reduction in value of items (e.g. wear and tear) that you can remove, (d) costs of returning items; all provided that you have informed them of all this at the beginning.

I used the following links for my research, they're worth a read:

• Citizen's Advice (sets out the consumer's rights, so coming at it from the consumer's perspective): Cancelling building or decorating work.
• Business companion (sets out the requirements from a business perspective): Consumer contracts: distance sales.
• Legislation.gov.uk: Model instructions for cancellation.

I've now appended information about "your right to cancel (if you're a consumer)" to my terms of business, which I email to anyone who wants more than a small amount of work doing.

But crumbs, what a headache! (And all sympathy to the original poster).

 

[Strima]

What was the reason for the customer sacking yourself and the previous spark?

 

[NDG Elecs]

I feel for you mate. Absolute scum. And to think they are bringing a child into the world. The poor little so and so. Postcrete sets really quickly by the way.......not easily shifted by dynorod etc!!
Thanks for heads up Steve. I am vaguely aware of these regs but will look into them a bit more now.

 

[Stevesplatto]

Great response thank you!
Got to bang out some work to pay this guy now.. I'm looking into an appeal but it isnt looking good. It's completely stitched up.
I'll reply in detail this evening. There's even more c**p to this!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Stevesplatto]

What a piece of s***! People like this really boil my wee. Can't you pay them £1 a week or something to really pee them off?

No, if i dont pay within 28 days it can affect my credit rating. I have to pay directly to the client .If i dont then the client takes out a CCJ which he'll win because it's a judges direction and Ill have a CCJ against me..

 

[Stevesplatto]

bar stools ,they did it to get job of nothing.

what did he sack you for ?

I was working of an estimate with the caveat that I'm likely to find more issues (like, the cowboy had used an earth of a NEST thermostat as a neutral off the heat miser for the lighting circuit.) There was an estimated 4 hours left he said 3 I said it was an estimate, he sacked me! The amount of hours worked isnt disputed.

 

[Stevesplatto]

To the O.P, were you legally represented in the small claims?

So this customer has now sacked 2 Electricians and had the last 2 1/2 days of work (and materials ?) for free.
How much did they get out of the first one I wonder?

He tried to withold £150 of the 1st one. (to be fair he was a complete cowboy, shocking work) the guy didnt produce any invoices, no paperwork at all. The guy threatened him over the phone. the client looked him up and found he was a convicted football hooligan so the client paid up!

 

[Stevesplatto]

Know a plumber in Bristol who had a customer do something very similar, thought he was clever taking plumber to court and getting the money paid back under similar daft laws as above, sacked him after the boiler and heating system was in and certified and about to start the ensuite shower rooms
Ending up costing him several hundred quid.
Now i do not condone this but turned out the customer was renting out the flat on air bnb, seems somebody booked the flat and copied the key! somebody later stole the boiler! not sure who would do such a thing - must be scrap metal thieves.. they also saw fit to put expanding foam into the pipes and loosen joints. also splashed bright red paint on all the white walls! Would have cost a lot of money to put right... karma is a funny thing and always comes back round..

Well clearly who would condone such a thing

 

[Stevesplatto]

Thank you for this.
Most of my work starts well within 14 days. Looking for something that would have protected me for an immediate start.
Cheers
Steve

Not good, whilst the law is there to protect the public from unfair tradesmen it can be misused, as in this case, to fleece innocent businesses which should not be possible.

The attached pdf (if the forum allows it) is the schedules 2 and 3 from the legislation that details the information you need to supply.

If you supply a fully featured quote or estimate with your business details on it then the following additional wording could be used to cover the provision of an off premises service contract.
However it is critical that you asses the information needed and ensure you are covered for what you do. This is just an example.

Right to cancel

You have the right to cancel this contract within 14 days without giving any reason. The cancellation period will expire after 14 days from the day of acceptance.
To do so you must clearly inform the company of your decision to cancel this contract (by email or equivalent) before the cancellation period expires.
If you cancel (apart from deductions for loss of value from handling beyond establishing the nature, characteristics and function of the goods and delivery charges above standard delivery) the company will reimburse all payments received from the customer within 14 days or less of the return of goods, if applicable, or the receipt of the cancellation notice, by the original method of payment unless agreed otherwise. Goods must be sent back by the customer within 14 days of the date of cancellation, you will have to bear the direct cost of returning such goods.
If service is requested to start during the cancellation period the customer will pay, in relation to the cost of the contract, a proportional amount relating to the work done until the cancellation took place.

 

[Stevesplatto]

Thanks for this, very useful
Steve

I was looking into this last week (slow week), took me a couple of days to get my head round it. The main issues are:

1. Only relevant to consumers (not businesses).
2. You need to tell them about their right to cancel. Failing to do so can result in the customer effectively doing you over, as per the original post.
3. The right to cancel does not apply in a couple of circumstances relevant to our trade: (a) when the customer invites you into their home to do urgent repair work, and (b) anything "made to measure."
4. If you do work within the 14 day period, (and you've told them of their right to cancel) then they can still cancel at any time, but they must pay you for (a) your time, (b) any materials you can't remove without damaging, (c) a reduction in value of items (e.g. wear and tear) that you can remove, (d) costs of returning items; all provided that you have informed them of all this at the beginning.

I used the following links for my research, they're worth a read:

• Citizen's Advice (sets out the consumer's rights, so coming at it from the consumer's perspective): Cancelling building or decorating work.
• Business companion (sets out the requirements from a business perspective): Consumer contracts: distance sales.
• Legislation.gov.uk: Model instructions for cancellation.

I've now appended information about "your right to cancel (if you're a consumer)" to my terms of business, which I email to anyone who wants more than a small amount of work doing.

But crumbs, what a headache! (And all sympathy to the original poster).

 

[Stevesplatto]

Hi,
Would it be possible to post a copy of your terms of business?
Cheers
Steve

I was looking into this last week (slow week), took me a couple of days to get my head round it. The main issues are:

1. Only relevant to consumers (not businesses).
2. You need to tell them about their right to cancel. Failing to do so can result in the customer effectively doing you over, as per the original post.
3. The right to cancel does not apply in a couple of circumstances relevant to our trade: (a) when the customer invites you into their home to do urgent repair work, and (b) anything "made to measure."
4. If you do work within the 14 day period, (and you've told them of their right to cancel) then they can still cancel at any time, but they must pay you for (a) your time, (b) any materials you can't remove without damaging, (c) a reduction in value of items (e.g. wear and tear) that you can remove, (d) costs of returning items; all provided that you have informed them of all this at the beginning.

I used the following links for my research, they're worth a read:

• Citizen's Advice (sets out the consumer's rights, so coming at it from the consumer's perspective): Cancelling building or decorating work.
• Business companion (sets out the requirements from a business perspective): Consumer contracts: distance sales.
• Legislation.gov.uk: Model instructions for cancellation.

I've now appended information about "your right to cancel (if you're a consumer)" to my terms of business, which I email to anyone who wants more than a small amount of work doing.

But crumbs, what a headache! (And all sympathy to the original poster).

 

[The Ghost]

I have had a couple of clients like that. I think we should have a register of professional customers like this so we could be warned off of doing work for them. There is no doubt in my mind that the people who ripped me off knew how to play the system and do it on an ongoing basis.

 

[pirate]

In a previous life I had to contend with this nonsense. The problem was that the contract was usually signed in the customer's house. If he came to the office to sign it he didn't have the right to cancel within 14 days, but mostly it was signed at his house. I had to give him the Notice of Right of Cancellation, and also a duplicate which he signed and gave back to me, so I had proof he had received the original. I then explained that I couldn't start work for 14 days. The customer invariably wanted me to start immediately, so I gave him a 3rd copy which had a waiver typed on it, saying he understood the regulations but nevertheless wanted the work done right away, and waived his right of cancellation. If he signed that 3rd copy I took it away with me and started work. There is a doubt over this practice, ie asking a customer to waive their rights of cancellation when it might be construed that they were acting under pressure (the exact situation the regs are designed to counteract) but I am happy to say I never had a problem. This may be because I was fortunate that no-one ever wanted to cancel, or, if they did, they realised they had signed a waiver and assumed they couldn't then cancel. At the end of the day, you are indeed supposed to issue these Notices if the work is agreed at the customer's home, and you run the risk of cancellation as happened in the OPs case. If you don't issue them, then you are seen as at fault and the customer wins again...that is the situation in Scotland, but I do believe these regs are the law throughout the UK and are EU based legislation. After following the law rigidly for a year, and thus amassing tons of extra paperwork, I simply gave up issuing the Notices, on the basis that if you didn't tell folks of the right to cancel, they probably wouldn't know about it...but the OP sadly has encountered some tricky beggar who knew the law and deliberately used it to avoid paying.

 

[Devonchris]

If you do appeal, look at second paragraph here.

You don’t automatically get a cooling-off period if:

• you have something specially made - for example, made to measure curtains, windows or a conservatory (some traders voluntarily offer a 7 day cooling-off period for these products, but they don’t have to)
• you invite the business into your home for urgent repairs or maintenance - for example, when you ask a plumber to come and mend a burst pipe

You said you were brought in to do remedial work that was possibly left in a dangerous state and that his wife's condition made it urgent. You may have a get-out on that clause. Worth taking legal advice.

Sounds like he was screwed over by the first guy and then decided to take it out on you. He must have done his research when trying to get compensation from him. Then decided against it because of the first guys reputation.

A good solicitor would bring all this out. Problem is that costs. and with no guarantee of success its a risk.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm sure many on here appreciate that. And good luck with whatever action you take.

 

[Richard Burns]

Thank you for this.
Most of my work starts well within 14 days. Looking for something that would have protected me for an immediate start.
Cheers
Steve

This phrase "If service is requested to start during the cancellation period the customer will pay, in relation to the cost of the contract, a proportional amount relating to the work done until the cancellation took place." covers you for an immediate start, however you must get written (email) confirmation that the customer wants to start before the cancellation period ends.
If this occurs then even though they can still cancel up to 14 days after the acceptance of the estimate they have to pay for the work you have done so far.
The wording on the schedule of the model form in the pdf is "If you requested to begin the performance of services during the cancellation period, you shall pay us an amount which is in proportion to what has been performed until you have communicated us your cancellation from this contract, in comparison with the full coverage of the contract.".

 

[7029 dave]

I have read this op a few times to get my head round it.
Cancellation rights? BUT you never cancelled you were sacked. This is an absolute disgrace, the law is an ---.!

 

[buzzlightyear]

why don't you put the customer name on this forum and other sparks will not touch him with a barge pole.

 

[Squid]

I am in West London where is your former client as it looks like he's scamming tradesmen and needs to be taught a lesson.

 

[Martyn Fletcher]

Well this was an eye opener.
About to go sole trader in a few weeks and read this.

..... about 20 minutes later...

Having cleaned up and changed my pants I'm still sat here like a startled rabbit.
Customer/client agreements hasn't been that high on my priority list but they have certainly shot up the charts now.
Thank you very much for this heads-up. I'll be putting these notices in all my quotes whether paper, email or on-line.
Stevesplatto I really hope you get a good result from your appeal. Please keep us informed.
Also, do look at post 32, that appears to be some sound advice.

 

[telectrix]

conniving scroat customer. cancel this:

 

[SparkySy]

I have found that 4 transit vans full of lads works well too! (Obviously just here to take back what we installed) that is still ours!
It's funny actually as we got stopped in one of those roadside waste your time and see if we can make more money off the motorists things by the police a few weeks ago, and A trading standards bloke was there as well as dss and all the other air thieves and he was saying about this 14 day cancellation thing, it was news to me! But I try and avoid domestic if I can. Hope you get sorted out and get what's owed to you.

 

[Wilko]

Reading up on this aspect, I find there are 3 types of consumer contracts defined - "on premises", "off premises" and "distance". Each has its own obligations. I had thought I would fall under the "off premises" contract, but then I've read this doc, which indicates (if I've understood correctly? ) that I'm actually working the "on premises" method.
Typically I attend consumers home and take information. I retire to the bat cave and prepare a quote and email it to them. They then consider it and respond in their own good time. It appears that if I had attended and given them a price and they'd agreed right then, it would be an "off premises" contract. See section 2. Thoughts and Feedback welcomed !!!
Buying from business premises - on-premises contracts explained - https://www.hants.gov.uk/business/tradingstandards/consumeradvice/goodsandservices/buyingonpremises

 

[Richard Burns]

Thoughts and Feedback welcomed !!!
Buying from business premises - on-premises contracts explained - https://www.hants.gov.uk/business/tradingstandards/consumeradvice/goodsandservices/buyingonpremises

Difficult to say because of the phrase "immediately"; what is the time period of immediate in this case.
If you ring the customer and say "that will be £50" and they respond "hmm, well it is more than I thought but OK" then this is not immediate as they have said something before OK!!
If you send an email and the customer responds next day to say yes, was this immediate? they may not have received it until they checked emails next day or they may have deliberated for a day.
Probably, despite my also thinking that these were off premises contracts, it does seem as if when the consumer has time (how much time?) to think without the trader present then it becomes on premises.
Thank you.

 

[Wilko]

That ref. is an interesting read, but I'd like to find another supportive ref. as this is just one view. Agree with your concerns about definition of immediate. If they replied and agreed on the same day the quote was emailed to them that might well be considered immediate (so "off premises"). If they reply a week later, its probably not immediate (so "on premises"). Nightmare (expletive deleted) ...

 

[Pete E]

I think the moral of the story is that anybody running their own business would do to get legal advice on such matters and get all their ducks in a row ....

Also, as a business, is there any form of insurance that can protect you in such cases? Perhaps even legal insurance to cover legal advice and solicitors/court fee's ect?

Another area that would bare checking is the laws that surround payments and cancelation rights ect if the Customer pays by credit card..

I know as a consumer in many circumstances I have much more consumer protection if I pay for an item by credit card, but not sure how it works as regards "services"???

 

[curly]

I haven't read all the posts however I know about this law, it is to stop pikes "fixing" your grannies roof and charging her thousands. If you do a written quote on the computer just add a new page with the following and forget it

Acceptance of Quotation Job Total __________ PLEASE COMPLETE THE FIRST SECTION ONLY AND RETURN TO: name address and email address I/We hereby accept the quotation dated _________________ from Curly Decorating for work to take place at the address given below. I/We have read and accept the Terms & Conditions stated in the quotation letter. Customer Details Name _____________________________ Address _____________________________ _____________________________ ——————————————— Signed _____________________________ Date ________________ ____________________________________ Notice of Right to Cancel (Please cut and KEEP this part of the form) If you wish to cancel the contract you MUST DO SO IN WRITING WITHIN FOURTEEN DAYS of the date of ac-ceptance and deliver personally or send this (which may be by electronic mail) to the person named below. If send-ing by email you do not have to copy this form – a simple statement including your name and address and date will suffice. Please Note: if you have requested that services or goods be supplied prior to your statutory fourteen day cooling off period, you will be required to pay for the service and goods provided. Complete, detach and return this part of this form – ONLY IF YOU WISH TO CANCEL THE CONTRACT – to: name address email address I/We hereby give notice that I/We wish to cancel My/Our contract Name _________________________________________ Address _________________________________________ _________________________________________ Signed _________________________________________ Date ____________________

 

[baldelectrician]

If this gets moved to the arms I will upload files that I use.

I had trading standards send me them, which I altered to be company specific.
They then checked the altered ones prior to me using them.

On a side note- I record all my calls. In circumstances like these I send the client an email (whilst on site) asking them to accept the terms and conditions as well as the info on my website.

 

[snowhead]

it is to stop pikes "fixing" your grannies roof and charging her thousands.

The problem is it doesn't stop those types, they're gone after the job with no traceable address.

 

[baldelectrician]

I have just put a bit in the downloads section

 

[buzzlightyear]

if a customer rings me up ,and ask me to do a job the same day.
I tell them, if you except the price .I will do the job there and then .
and most do , so no get out clause for them .

 

[elsparko]

 

[Wilko]

I have just put a bit in the downloads section

I've made a cut and paste of parts of it :
... The cancellation period will expire after 14 days from the day of the conclusion of the contract ... To meet the cancellation deadline, it is sufficient for you to send your wish to cancel the contract before the end of the cancellation period ... If you cancel this contract, we will reimburse to you all payments received from you, including the costs of delivery ...

So, you do a week's work, supply and fit £1000 of kit get paid say £2000 and you've given them 2 weeks after that to cancel the contract for no reason and you're going to pay them back £2000.

Can that be right?