Caravan site wiring

[richy3333]

Just to throw something else into the mix ESQCR needs to be considered and the issue of permanence (already touched on). To answer the OP last question. Around here, we have plenty of 'static' vans that people live in permanently. Some whilst building houses and some forever. Some have porches built on to them. Our DNO do not consider statics permanent regardless of how long people live in them and so have to be treated as 'caravans'. No earth is given and all have to be TT'd. Some of the local caravan sites have statics and these have to be TT'd also. The same applies to the C&CC site statics I've worked on - though they often have a 32A supply.

Someone mentioned the restriction of 16A on mobile hook-ups. Last summer I had a caravanner complain because their supply kept tripping out. They wanted a refund of the £2.50 per day they were paying for the electricity. The manager and I went to look, only to find they had 4 x 2KW heaters running (3 of which were in an awning), plus assorted other electrical appliances. The air turned blue with the managers comments (all understandable) and he asked the campers to leave!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

You can argue this point till the cows come home. It is well covered in the relevant part of BS7671,and that is what you will need to apply irrespective of your own ideas and opinions.

Get this wrong, and the consequences probably don't bear thinking about. You will be hung drawn and quartered if someone gets injured.

Cheers………………Howard

 

[spark 68]

Someone mentioned the restriction of 16A on mobile hook-ups.

Hi Richy,

I don't think anyone said the supply was restricted to 16A ?, just that 16A was the minimum allowed.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

the fact is:

just because it is considered a `static`...this does not mean that it cant be moved...at any time...

its just a case of getting a flatbed...and a winch to drag it on with...

so consequently the DNO are justified in considering them moveable/portable/not perminant structures....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hi Richy,

I don't think anyone said the supply was restricted to 16A ?, just that 16A was the minimum allowed.

more often than not its 16A thats available on caravan sites ....
this can pose a problem..

i had a cousin of mine wanting the supply `upgrading` on her caravan...

it took me several hours to explain to her i couldn`t just up the amps...

i think she sold that caravan anyway...once the novelty had worn off..

model citizens....

 

[spark 68]

Oh I know that Glenn, but you are not restricted to 16A for technical reasons, only by physical reasons and only what is available on a given site.

 

[Badged01]

Oh I know that Glenn, but you are not restricted to 16A for technical reasons, only by physical reasons and only what is available on a given site.

I reckon the sites are just tight ars*s! If they give you more than 16A you will use it with fancy electrical gadgets like kettles, toasters and heaters all on at once ...... or portable outdoor jacuzzis like I wish I had with my campervan!

 

[nickjohn]

So is the purpose of the plug / socket hook up purely for disconnection purposes should the van be moved at any time??

 

[nickjohn]

Sorry to bring this up again but if you have the 30ma protection at source of the swa could you get away with fitting a commander socket onto the swa then a plug / lead arrangement into the van (having a cu in the van with an rcd / breakers etc)???

 

[richy3333]

Sorry to bring this up again but if you have the 30ma protection at source of the swa could you get away with fitting a commander socket onto the swa then a plug / lead arrangement into the van (having a cu in the van with an rcd / breakers etc)???

Well, what do the Regs say...

 

[nickjohn]

Well, what do the Regs say...

Well Richy3333, not sure as I do not have a copy hence asking the question in the first place....I assumed the forum would be a place whereby people with suitable knowledge would be able to offer assistance and advice based on experience, guess I will just have to get the latest copy of the regs and take it from there...

 

[spark 68]

Sorry to bring this up again but if you have the 30ma protection at source of the swa could you get away with fitting a commander socket onto the swa then a plug / lead arrangement into the van (having a cu in the van with an rcd / breakers etc)???

The short answer is No.

The Pitch socket needs to comply with BS EN 6039-2, have an IP rating of at least IP44, each S/O needs it's own individual OCPD and RCD.

If you are planning on getting involved with this type of install then I would seriously suggest you also get a copy of GN7 as well as the BGB.

 

[itselectric]

So you have a garden shed which is not a permanent structure, yet you wire direct to internal fuseboard. What's the difference to a static caravan which will only be removed to be replaced with another. these are no different to a bungalow.

 

[spark 68]

A caravan has a (earthed and Bonded) metal chassis for a start, hence why PME is not allowed.

They both (van and pitch) are covered by different sections of the regs, the pitch being a commercial venture/open to the public will also be covered by EAWR amongst other things which is statutory, this is not just a shed in your back garden.

 

[happysteve]

the fact is:

just because it is considered a `static`...this does not mean that it cant be moved...at any time...

its just a case of getting a flatbed...and a winch to drag it on with...

so consequently the DNO are justified in considering them moveable/portable/not perminant structures....

I'm trying to understand these comments (which make sense) with respect to the regs.

Bear in mind my status (see sig) I am only trying to increase my knowledge, so please tell me where my reasoning is out.

721 "Electrical Installations in caravans and motor caravans"

721.1 Scope

Blah blah

"They do not apply to the electrical installations of mobile homes, residential park homes and tranportable units.

NOTE 1: For mobile homes and residential park homes the general requirements apply"

"Mobile homes" are defined in Part 2: "A transortable leisure accomodation vehicle which includes means for mobility but does not meet the requirements for construction and use of road vehicles."

So this is your "static caravan" and, whether lived in all year round or not, makes no difference to the regs, and isn't covered by 721.

Given the OP's description of the caravan site, I'd say 721 isn't relevant. Anyone beg to differ?

Then I looked at 708 "Electrical Installations in Caravan / Camping Parks and Similar Locations"

708.1 Scope

"The particular requirements of this section apply to that portion of the electrical installation in caravan / camping parks and similar locations providing facilities for supplying leisure accommodation vehicles (including caravans) or tents."

Part 2 defines leisure accommodation vehicle: "Unit of living accommodation for temporary or seasonal occupation which may meet requirements for construction and use of road vehicles."

The important word there is "may" - so if it doesn't, but is nevertheless a unit of living accommodation for temporary or seasonal occupation, it's within the remit of 708. To me, this says, "static holiday homes are covered, residential homes are not." Anyone beg to differ?

708.411.4 states that ESQCR prohibits connection of PME earthing facility to any metalwork of your... let's just call it a van... your van.

708.530.3 Caravan pitch supply equipment "... shall be located adjacent to the pitch and not more than 20m from the connection facility on the [van] when on its pitch."

BGB does not define "supply equipment" but I read this as "switchgear and control gear". So, RCDs, overcurrent protective devices etc. So this says to me, "if you're going to have an RCD/MCB, it has to be near the van." Anyone beg to differ?

Now, it's been 20 years since I lived on a caravan park (which my folks owned, up near Bradford), but in them days, statics didn't come with nice shiny ceeforms. They were wired in by a [qualified] electrician (a bloke called Ian, in our case), like a permanent installation.

708.553.1 talks about "plugs and socket-outlets" but there are some paragraphs relating to fixed connections:

708.553.1.12: "Blah... A fixed connection for supply to each [van] shall be protected individually by an overcurrent protective device, in accordance with the requirements of Chapter 43."

I take this to mean, "You need an MCB or similar, but it doesn't proscribe what value, for a fixed installation." Anyone beg to differ?

708.553.1.13: "Blah... Final circuits intended for fixed connection connection of the supply to [vans] shall be protected individually by an RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1."

(415.1.1 is under additional protection, states "30mA RCD").

So taking all that into account, I read the requirements for static caravans, with a fixed supply (ie not connected by ceeform), there should be a 30mA RCD and an overcurrent protective device within 20m of the van.

Now, where the "two 30mA RCDs in series" bit comes in I don't know, as I haven't read the whole of the BGB yet (I'm working on it!). From a pragmatic point of view, if your van's CU also had a 30mA RCD fitted then yeah, there'd be no discrimination, so you wouldn't know which one would go... but if it happened to be the one in the van, you might save yourself having to go out in your dressing gown and slippers. 531.2.9 talks about discrimination and RCDs in series, "the characteristics of the devices shall be such that the intended discrimination is achieved." HOWEVER, this is only required "where discrimination in their operation is necessary to prevent danger," and I don't perceive this to be the case, here. Anyone beg to differ?

Like I say, just trying to learn. Still confused by "the DNO are justified in considering them moveable/portable/not perminant structures" which as I say does make sense, but through lack of experience an knowledge I don't know what the relevance of this is.

Owt wrong with any of my reasoning with respect to scope and relevant bits of the BGB?

 

[nickjohn]

Just got a copy of "guide to the wiring regs" from the ECA.
Section G5.

"Caravan: A trailer leisure accommodation vehicle, used for touring, designed
to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles."

The large static "caravans" are not constructed for road use as they have no brakes for a start..



708.530.3 Caravan pitch supply equipment "... shall be located adjacent to the pitch and not more than 20m from the connection facility on the [van] when on its pitch."

As these are permanent statics could you put the connection point within the van?? make things easier if the trip went at 2 in the morning on a wet night..

 

[spark 68]

Mobile or transportable units are covered by section 717

The scope for this section specifically excludes caravans.

717 refers to either:
i) self propelled vehicles or towed
ii) containers or cabins

In general the requirements in 717 are very similar to 721, except where they are even more onerous and complicated in cases of an onboard generators and the like.

It also differs in that section 721 mentions in Scope that this applies to "habitation purposes" where as section 717 does not, section 717 refers to examples of "technical facillities, fire fighting units, medical units, workshops offices etc....etc., in other words everything else apart from habitation purposes

re: 721 note 1, where it says "for mobile and residential park homes the general requirements apply"
it is referring to the general requirements for that section ie. 721

GN7 helps a lot in explaining the convoluted way the regs are written.

 

[happysteve]

Just got a copy of "guide to the wiring regs" from the ECA.
Section G5.

"Caravan: A trailer leisure accommodation vehicle, used for touring, designed
to meet the requirements for the construction and use of road vehicles."

The large static "caravans" are not constructed for road use as they have no brakes for a start..

Yes, hence all the stuff in 721 not relevant.

708.530.3 Caravan pitch supply equipment "... shall be located adjacent to the pitch and not more than 20m from the connection facility on the [van] when on its pitch."

As these are permanent statics could you put the connection point within the van?? make things easier if the trip went at 2 in the morning on a wet night..

Stuff in bold: this is pretty clear. Adjacent to the pitch does not equal in the van.

Stuff in red: makes no difference. 708 already makes allowances for the fact that these are for "leisure accommodation vehicles." (see definition in previous post, or Part 2 of the BGB),meaning static caravans. This definition states "temporary or seasonal occupation." So residential homes are not covered by 708 so the extra stipulations (above and beyond BGB regular stuff) don't apply. For residential homes you might well be able to tail straight in without "caravan pitch electrical supply equipment" - I don't know on this one. Seek advice from those experienced.

As I understand it, there are several ways in deciding whether it's a holiday static or a residential home. Council tax is the easiest, and the site owner will definitely know.

Sounds like you need a copy of the BGB.

vvv take note. vvv

 

[happysteve]

re: 721 note 1, where it says "for mobile and residential park homes the general requirements apply"
it is referring to the general requirements for that section ie. 721

GN7 helps a lot in explaining the convoluted way the regs are written.

Umm... forgive me, my take on that is different. Where in the note it says "the general requirements apply" I take this to mean the rest of the BGB.

As evidence, since you refer to GN7, page 11: "The particular requirements of Part 7 of BS 7671 supplement or modify the general requirements contained in the remainder of the standard." (my emphasis)

(this is basically repeating 700 of the BGB).

A static caravan is a mobile home (as defined in Part 2).

"The requirements [of section 721] do not apply to the following: electrical installations of mobile homes or residential park homes, to which the general requirements apply." (GN7, page 52).

I take all that to read, "721 does not apply to static caravans (or residential park homes)".

Anyone?

 

[spark 68]

section 7XX modifies and also supplements the other regs in the book in both BS7671 and GN7 (which of course is referenced to the regs), so you have to back track to the original reg and then intereprate what the modification/supplementary information is.

In section 721 note one, it states "the general requirements apply" (my emphasis), if it did not refer to this section it would have said general requirements apply, or given the basic reg numbers.
As you have pointed out further in your post, where it says "the requirements (meaning this section,721) do not apply to the internal electrical installation of leisure vehicles"

"The requirements [of section 721] do not apply to the following: electrical installations of mobile homes or residential park homes, to which the general requirements apply." (GN7, page 52).

Of course it doesn't, the CU and wiring inside of the caravan is just covered by the standard regs as any other installation would be, why would it be any different ?
Section 721 only refers to the additional and supplementary regs over and above the normal that is associated with the peculiarity of that type of install, it tells you this at the very top of page 52 of GN7.