Changes in the 17th edition....

[LukeScotty]

Thought I'd start a sticky post on the 17th edition changes, basically just list of all the regs which have changed, be as detailed as you like really, hopefully it'll become a decent reference post for you look upon in the furture months before it comes into action. Type away...........

 

[TonyM58]

i'm gonna start writing my 17th edition and 17th edition update courses next week, so my head will be well and truly in the book

I can always post the main points up here, no probs

 

[LukeScotty]

just got me book today, going to try an do the same, harder for me, dunno what the old ones were, hehe

 

[leeroy201986]

reg no. 411.3.3

In a.c. systems,additional protection by means of an rcd in accordance with regulation 415.1 shall be provided for:

(i) socket outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20A that are for use by ordinary persons and are intended for general use,and

(ii) mobile equipment with a rated current rating not exceeding 32A for use outdoors.

An exception to (i) is permitted for:

(a) socket outlets for use under supervision of a skilled or instructed persons, e.g. in some commercial or industrial locations, or

(b) a specific labelled or otherwise suitably identified socket-outlet provided for connection of a particular item of equipment.

not sure if i am interpriting the (i) correctly? any thoughts?

 

[TonyM58]

leeroy,

it is what it is

all sockets 20A or less to be an RCD, unless you had a single socket with 'freezer only' written on it

The ordrinary/skilled persons bit is awkward - lets be hones you are NOT gonna get away with that in a house.

Anyway, its irrelevant because all cables less than 5 cm from the surface have to be RCD protected if insalled in the safe zones and not in earthed metallic conduit.

 

[leeroy201986]

feel stupid now, you now what its like tho, you sieve through the big brown/red book for so long looking up things that eventually your mind blanks out over simple things.

 

[LukeScotty]

nah its alright, at least you, me, others can get a better understanding of certain areas. I think the more you discuss stuff the better, rather than having the little voice in your head repeat the regulation all the time trying to get what it means.

 

[evo666]

What do you have to do with your 16th edition testers??
I need to purchase one and the little man in the shop said that he had no 16th edition ones in stock and he was waiting for the 17thedition ones to come in.
Does that mean that if you already have a 16th edition tester you ahve to get a new one??
If so what changes on them??

 

[Andy M]

Just going back to the remark that Tony (My new Hero - are you Tony Cable ? the face of the NIC ?) made re the freezer socket having to be on an RCD. It wouldn't if it was wired surface. Does this mean the return of the surface rewire? well on the lighting and fixed equipment anyway. Are we not dumbing down by insisting everthing is on an RCD to accommodate the DIYer and worse than that the Kitchen Fitter?
Finally an unrelated RANT
i returned to a house i rewired in 2004 the other day to swap a spur to a socket outlet (which had been the boiler supply (own circuit fixed equipment & on non rcd side of split load) when i wired it. I enquired to the home owner why the Gas Board had not wanted to re-route the circuit, which would have been dead easy and where the new boiler in rthe new position was now fed from. My worst fears were confounded. They had spurred of off the Immersion Heater!! but hey they part P'd it so that's ok. Sludgy Rats
Rant Over

 

[TonyM58]

What do you have to do with your 16th edition testers??
I need to purchase one and the little man in the shop said that he had no 16th edition ones in stock and he was waiting for the 17thedition ones to come in.
Does that mean that if you already have a 16th edition tester you ahve to get a new one??
If so what changes on them??

Evo,

Only changes to testing that i am aware of for the 17th are the IR values, test voltage will be the same, but values all move 'up one' (@500V min now 1Mohm instead of 0.5Mohm)

Heard rumours that ramp testing of rcd's was gonna come in (so you record actual trip current instead of/as well as trip time, but it doesnt look like.

Seen lots of '17th editon testers' out there. Perhaps they come with a little pull out 5cm ruler so you can check the depth of cables below the surface!!!!!

And no, Andy, I am NOT Tony Cable. But by a happy coincidence my last name is 'Overcurrent Protective Device', comes from my fathers side i think.

Are you Andy Impedence by any chance, perhaps Andy Adiabatic Formula?

 

[LukeScotty]

so your saying that between a 16th edition tester and a new 17th one, there is nothing different about them?

 

[EasyFox]

Probably only the price !

 

[TonyM58]

luke,

I am saying that iam not aware of any changes that could justify calling something a 17th edition tester

Could you imagine them introducing something that made thousands of 500-700 quid meters redundant???!!!!

Oh, and i've got some 17th edition compliant pens for sale, and ,erm...... some old socks

10 quid each

They are more expensive than the 16th edition ones, because they are, well,......17th edition!!

 

[Cirrus]

Sorry to hijack the thread but Tony - I have sent you a pm about your 17th training

 

[EasyFox]

Tony your a man that might know.
I've been in the wholesalers this morning & while chatting to the usual crowd we got on to the 17th ed test meters. I said (same as you) as far as I was aware only the IR values had changed so all 16th ed meters will comply unless they are pass/fail type set for 16th ed results.
But one of the lads said he was told by IET (he rang them for advise on 2382 courses) that the current continuity test current( Test current I = 200 mA)
is to be changed in the first set of ammendments mid to late Feb (I've found nothing on the IET site about it).
He also said to hangfire with the 2382 courses due to said ammendments.
Just wondered if you or anybody else had heard anything or is it the usual rumour mill on the go.

 

[TonyM58]

well, gotta be honest thats news to me!!!

Cirrus, i have PM'd you back, no problems

 

[gazzel72]

Test equipment need not be changed, there is no difference between 16th & 17th edition testers. This is the nos. you need to look at IEC 61010 & EN 61557 if your meters comply to these your ok. Hope this helps.

 

[slrichardson]

Passed yesterday!!!!!!!!! Rcbo heaven here i come!!!!!!
Found exam ok no real scares, if you have done some papers no worries!
Thanks to Brian!!

 

[PAUL M]

Has Anyone Spotted Any Mistakes In The Big Red Bible Yet,page 363 Radial Final Circuit Arrangements Reg 433.1 "a Radial Final Circuit Starts And Finishes At The Distribution Board And Is Protected By A 30a Or 32a Protective Device,"hmmmmmm.sounds More Like A Ring To Me.ha.anybody Would Think The New Regs Where Rushed In.

 

[Cirrus]

Haven't bought my copy yet. Can't quite bring myself to spend £65 on a bleedin book!

 

[PAUL M]

i know it grieves me but have to have latest edition for when the nic visit,has anyone heard when 17th o.s.g. is coming out?

 

[wayne]

i hoted that writing mistake ,the cute littlle drawing looks right

 

[BEN5637]

is anyone working to 17th now? fitted a cu and bonding today in a house with TT earth. with 100ma rcd main switch and 30ma on the split side. understandably gonna be out dated this year and customer didnt want to pay for rcbos as quoted for it last year

 

[Shakey]

is anyone working to 17th now? fitted a cu and bonding today in a house with TT earth. with 100ma rcd main switch and 30ma on the split side. understandably gonna be out dated this year and customer didnt want to pay for rcbos as quoted for it last year

why would they need RCBO's, just change the CU spec and juggle with the circuit connections to each way in the CU

I cant see a twin 30mA RCD board being much different to a 100mA S type and a 30mA

 

[BEN5637]

yeah fair one but was having problems with two 30ma on a split load as they were intermittently tripping the other one when testing giving odd readings, so reverted back to 16th TT method. Just out of interested was looking back at old 2391 certificate and it said "you have been sucessful in th following "0" modules..." is that correct as doesnt sound very encouraging?

 

[Shakey]

as long as you have the certicate you are qualified

 

[BEN5637]

cheers shakey nice one, to be honest am new to the forum, but been reading posts for hours its surprising how much you get other views on things which is great as i work as a stand alone electrician top stuff cant get enough of it!

 

[bigal]

I agree Ben. M, myself and I get stuck in the same way mode. You think you know/understand something and then someone points out something bleedingly obvious. Thanks for the human conact guys.
Bigal

 

[MJS]

I wonder if any of you could help? Have there been any changes in the 17th edition with regards to increasing the size of the neutrals due to harmonic currents?
Any help or advice very much appriciated.

 

[texas123]

I found a really neat 17th Edition site at 17th Edition Wiring Regulations - Schneider Electric. It's on Schneider's website, but doesn't try to flog you anything. There's a great little interactive quiz on 17th Edition (I only scored 70% so it got me thinking) and some really neat Noddy guides to each of the changed regs.

 

[Darius-parky]

Haven't bought my copy yet. Can't quite bring myself to spend £65 on a bleedin book!

Hi Cirrus, Hi every one. Nice to be back after a long time. Family reasons.

Last time I complained about paying £65 for the red book everyone called me a tight -------/git!! Is there anyway that I can just have the updates to correlate with the brown book. Would be far sensible if this document could be looseleaf which could be updated as the regulations change rather than being produced in book form which must be purchased at vast expense!

 

[wayne]

hi darius a listing of the main changes can be found on websites such as the iee ,i still recommend the full book ,try ebay or amazon

 

[4x4 mark]

i got my 17thed offov amazon £57 but i bought it with other books so the postage was next to nowt, the on site guide comes out in september i think i was promised it for the 19th but not 100% sure.

 

[linzilou72]

Can I get back to the question about 16th edition testers? Tony are you talking Insulation Resistance and if so we all know that anything under 2 M Ohms needs to be investigated no matter what the regs say. Which lets face it all 16th edition testers can already do, so is this just another way to extract money from over regulated electricians.

I would also like to rant about kitchen fitters/plumbers why is is that Part P for them is a quick and easy course and for us sparks a long drawn out process and they work in special locations !!!! My landlord recently had a new condensing boiler and gas central heating installed in my flat, when I opened the door to let these two children in to install it and left for work I felt quite worried but gave them the benefit of the doubt. On returning the little blighters had unplugged my stereo out of the double socket in the kitchen and just plugged the boiler in, no spur, no cable clips, nothing nada.

Part P part timers get on my wick, If I had done that for the plumbers I work for they would have had a mini fit.

 

[daisy]

Hi.
Enjoyed reading the comments about the new regs.
I will be interested to know what you think of one of the new regs. Our teacher on the 17th edition course was non committal. Page 114 reg 533.1.1.2 says " fuses having fuse links likely to be removed or replaced by persons other than instructed persons or skilled persons shall be of a type which complies with the safety requirements of BS 88."
Does this mean no rewireable BS3036 fuses in domestic installations now. I know we have,nt used them in years but it would now have to be noted as a code 4 on a Periodic Inspection.
I will be interested to know your views
P.S.
you testers out there, are we now going to have additional pages with the Periodics just to cope with the code 4 "explosion".
Thanks Daisy

 

[Cirrus]

Hi Daisy. I just did my 17th course and exam on Thursday. We didn't learn a thing and I can honestly say I have no idea about the new regs. Passed my exam cos I was clever at finding the right section in the big red book. Good for you - sounds like your lecturer gave you ideas as to what the changes are on site as opposed to the changes as per the regs.

 

[daisy]

Hi Cirrus
Do not want to worry you but off the top of my head
EARTHING - GROUPING - METHODS - IMPEDANCE - BONDING - ZONES - INSULATION RES - thats it I,ve run out now there,s probably more! Have changed or include changes.

Got to go got a bit of reading to do
Daisy

 

[Cirrus]

Thanks Daisy,
Am not worried now as I did pass the exam so just need to swot up on things in a bit more detail I think

 

[tony.towa]

It's times like this I start to feel old. I have a 15th, 15(II) and 16th certificate and now I need to get the 17th. Have gone through the "big brown book" and agree with one of the previous replies, the Schneider web site info is very useful and puts some of the requirements into English. They can be printed off easily and there are more to come. Yet again though every electrician will interpret the regs differently and the manufacturers will give guidance that will have you buying more expensive products from them. It's a great life

 

[wayne]

hi daisy ,reading the black and white in the red book it would appear you're right about semi-rewirables ...has this change been sneaked under the wire ?
it certainly looks like semi-rewirables are now a code 4(does not comply with current regs ) any thoughts from the gallery?

 

[old dog]

411.4.5
where compliance with this regulation by an rcd the disconnection times
in accordance with table 41.1 relate to prospective residual fault currents
higher than the rated residual operating current of the rcd
(typically 2 IAn)
just got my head round this checked my meter was capable of 2x rcd
test thought thats what meant
this has now been amended and removed iet site has the list of amendments
bought the book passed the exam and i am out of date already

 

[Shakey]

411.4.5
where compliance with this regulation by an rcd the disconnection times
in accordance with table 41.1 relate to prospective residual fault currents
higher than the rated residual operating current of the rcd
(typically 2 IAn)
just got my head round this checked my meter was capable of 2x rcd
test thought thats what meant
this has now been amended and removed iet site has the list of amendments
bought the book passed the exam and i am out of date already

it has not been ammended

If it had we would now be working to BS7671:2008 ammended to 2008 or something

It has been corrigendumed

silly boy

 

[old dog]

it has not been ammended

If it had we would now be working to BS7671:2008 ammended to 2008 or something

It has been corrigendumed

silly boy

it was late could not spell corrigendumed but i think you got my drift

my mum god rest her told me son never use a word you cant spell
i dont say much these days

 

[a.walk]

Hi Cirrus, Hi every one. Nice to be back after a long time. Family reasons.

Last time I complained about paying £65 for the red book everyone called me a tight *******/git!! Is there anyway that I can just have the updates to correlate with the brown book. Would be far sensible if this document could be looseleaf which could be updated as the regulations change rather than being produced in book form which must be purchased at vast expense!

Hi Darius, you don't pay for printing the book, because that costs pennies, you pay for the author rights, if they only wanted to make it cheaper they would publish it on the internet, so anybody could print it and have it next day on site, you get thicker books with better quality paper for 20 quid. It only costs £65 because the knew it was going to be a bestseller this year, so why give up the profit, all sparks are used to paying that much for a book anyway

 

[LukeScotty]

shakey, have u got a pdf format of the regs ? wink wink ?

 

[Shakey]

shakey, have u got a pdf format of the regs ? wink wink ?

erm...no of course not......wink wink

 

[LukeScotty]

gimme gimme

 

[paulfish674@bt]

can any say if ashley joint boxs the brown backerlite ones are still allowed in installations

 

[Shakey]

can any say if ashley joint boxs the brown backerlite ones are still allowed in installations

well nothing has changed regarding junction boxes, the same rules apply, they must be accessible for maintenance and inspection etc etc

 

[bigal]

hi guys an gals
what's phase sequencing about?
big al