Discuss Cut-throat Competition: The Race To The Bottom in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

Thanks, but can I ask... any particular reason? I've never given them a second thought.

Yes, it gives you just that little bit more space when fitting the accessories, the unwanted lugs can have sharp edges which are not good if conductors end up pressed up against them.
Not such a concern with light switches but for a sfcu or DP switch every little bit of space can help.
With some makes of accessory you get terminal screws which are scarily close to those lugs if nor flattened. And some flat plataccesories even have a little label on them telling you to remove the top and bottom lugs before fitting them.
 
Electrical installation work, as all self-employed electricians will know, is a highly-competitive business. My own business operates mainly in the greater Glasgow area, and I have to say that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to compete on a level playing field.

I was recently approached by a builder who enquired as to what my fee would be to carry-out an EICR and some PA testing in domestic properties. I told him that I charge £100 for a one-bedroom house, £125 for a two-bedroom property, and £150 for a three-bedroom. Inspection and testing of outbuildings incur an additional fee. Imagine my surprise when he told me that my prices were "way too much". Imagine my further surprise when he told me that "the young electrician" that the builder currently uses to carry-out EICRs charges a flat-fee of £40. Aye, you read that correctly, £40 for an EICR regardless of the size of the property. My response was that I couldn't possibly compete with such a ridiculously low price unless I was willing to work for around £8-£10 an hour, or was willing to cut corners to save time, neither of which I would even begin to contemplate.

I occasionally use MyBuilder as a source of generating business, particularly during times when business is slack. I recently received a lead through the site inviting me to quote for a consumer unit upgrade. Upon contacting the customer to further discuss, the very first question that I was asked was the inevitable "how much is this going to cost me?" I told the customer that although I could provide an estimate, I could not, however, provide a fixed-price quotation prior to me having visited the customer's home and completed a survey. The customer responded by telling me that "all the other electricians I've shortlisted have given me a quotation so why can't you?"

I then explained to the customer that I was somewhat surprised to hear that electricians would even think about providing a fixed-price quotation for a consumer unit upgrade without having first attended the property and carried-out the requisite inspection and testing that needs to be done prior to a consumer unit replacement. The customer was having none of it. They wanted a price there and then. I once again reiterated that I could provide only an estimate at this stage, and told them that the work would cost anywhere between £250-£400 depending on a variety of factors. Imagine my astonishment when the customer told me that they had been given a fixed-price quotation of £200 over the phone by a "nice young man", and that they would now be offering the job to the comedian .... sorry .... electrician who quoted that unrealistically low price.

These two examples are but the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty more that I could cite. What particularly disturbs me is that it isn't "Dave down the pub" who is undercutting me, but young electricians who have not long completed their training. I just can't compete with the insane prices that these young electricians are quoting, particularly when some of them are evidently not even bothering to carry-out any essential inspection and testing before issuing quotations.

My gut instinct tells me that such scoundrels are most likely still living at home and being propped-up by 'the bank of mum and dad'. Perhaps the fools erroneously believe that the way to get ahead in business is to ruthlessly undercut everyone else. The strategy of a newly-started business using 'loss-leaders' as a means of winning customers is one thing, but I don't see how such a business model can possibly be sustained indefinitely. The end consequence of people quoting absurd prices is that a race to the bottom is instigated. It's a race that I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of ever participating in.

I'd be very interested to hear the views of other forum members regarding this issue as I'm sure plenty other electricians will have had similar experiences of cut-throat competition negatively impacting on their own businesses.
 
The last 3 yrs have had a number of bad installs all from NIEC reg companies. I wonder if it's due to Part Pee and our pretend electricians. During work I was asked to fit new metal light fitting, fitted and checked out earthing ! oops no earth. New C/U had been fitted by local company. Found this pic. Doubt if any testing done.

P1110011.JPG
 
Thank you all for your replies.

My lingering suspicion that the domestic market has been distorted has now been confirmed beyond any doubt. I'm now considering my position and am contemplating whether I should quit using MyBuilder altogether but remain in the domestic market with a revised marketing strategy, or whether I should just quit operating in the saturated domestic market altogether and leave the new breed of younger electricians to fight among themselves for jobs. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter course of action.

To demonstrate just how bad things are, I've attached a screenshot of a job that was recently posted on MyBuilder. The job was to remove an existing light fitting and fit a replacement. Nine people declared an interest. FFS. Nine electricians competing against one another for a small ten or fifteen minute job.

I won a job last week on MyBuilder to rewire a garage which I completed yesterday. While chatting with the customer, she revealed that from an initial pool of six interested parties, two were shortlisted. I was horrified to discover that the other (young) guy had quoted the customer a price over the phone without having first surveyed the work. I find it absolutely incredible that anyone purporting themselves as an electrician would not bother to inspect the existing installation. What if there was inadequate earthing and/or bonding? What if there was no RCD protection present? What if the garage required a TT earth?

Needless to say, my competitor's price was cheaper than mine. Indeed, my price was £350. His was just over £200. But he didn't get the job because I made sure that the customer was made aware of the requirements of regulation 131.8, and that by not priorly ascertaining the condition of an existing installation that he was hoping to make additions and alterations to, my competitor was willfully not complying with the requirements of BS 7671. One must wonder how many other regulations he considers to be inapplicable to himself.

Unfortunately, this (sharp) practice is commonplace on MyBuilder. Standards are being compromised right, left and centre. Sad but true. The race to the bottom continues unabated, but it's a race that I certainly won't be entering.
 

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whether I should just quit operating in the saturated domestic market altogether and leave the new breed of younger electricians to fight among themselves for jobs. I'm leaning heavily towards the latter course of action[/QUOTE]



I'm a young electrician myself and I fully understand the dangers of going in disgustingly low to win jobs (undercut others) for work.
It de-values our skill-set and gives customers a false sense of pricing. Both of which are dangerous for the growth of our trade.

I like to think I keep my prices up with most of the sparks around my area. ----es me off royally knowing some little turd-burglar is nipping round changing lightfittings for a tenner, and doing C/U upgrades for £100.
 
I find on these forums,probably because many electricians are self employed.quite a high proportion tend to vote Tory,yet in this thread there seems to be little regard for the most treasured of their values,its called free enterprise

Someone wants to spend the least amount of money,another person wants to provide that service,they may go in as low as needs be to win that contract,consequently the more expensive (or less efficient in Tory speak) they go to the wall

I know the resentment against these instant sparks is widespread however, We have a cut throat way of running an economy and some would say a foolhardy attitude by those who govern,but who votes for these fools ?

You reap what you sow, then you find the vegetation inedible
 

This "grandad electrician" was once a young electrician, but that was a long time ago lol. I'm now in the twilight years of my career and probably have about six or seven years ahead of me before retirement beckons. On the one hand, it saddens me to have witnessed such a sharp decline in standards in recent times, but on the other, it's good to see younger guys like yourself adhere to high standards and not prostitute yourself by selling yourself short. Good on ya!
 
I find on these forums,probably because many electricians are self employed.quite a high proportion tend to vote Tory,yet in this thread there seems to be little regard for the most treasured of their values,its called free enterprise

Someone wants to spend the least amount of money,another person wants to provide that service,they may go in as low as needs be to win that contract,consequently the more expensive (or less efficient in Tory speak) they go to the wall

I know the resentment against these instant sparks is widespread however, We have a cut throat way of running an economy and some would say a foolhardy attitude by those who govern,but who votes for these fools ?

You reap what you sow, then you find the vegetation inedible

Well, I certainly don't vote Tory. Indeed, I don't vote at all. Never have, never will. I consider voting to be a completely futile exercise given that "the man in the street" has his pants pulled down and gets royally shafted regardless of which particular political party is in government. That said, if embracing a market economy would make me a Tory, then a staunch Tory I am!

My gripe isn't about being beaten fairly on price, it's about being unfairly beaten on price. Big difference! I resent losing work to competitors who offer cheaper prices only because they are willfully not complying with the requirements of BS 7671. I have no problem whatsoever losing work to bona fide professional electricians whose work complies with the requirements of the big yellow book. What's the point in having wiring regulations if renegade electricians can act with impunity and decide for themselves which particular regulations they are going to ignore so to undercut their competitors?
 
What's the point in having wiring regulations if renegade electricians can act with impunity and decide for themselves which particular regulations they are going to ignore so to undercut their competitors?

The free enterprise economy is the overwhelming reason that this is so prevalent

If a socialist government were in power and making another absolute mess of trying to address this sort of problem (eg Part P) it would soon be accused of interference in business matters,swamping the economy with endless regulation and stifling business interest

Messed up attempts at regulation have made the problem a hundred times worse than before government foolishly interfered with the matters of competence in domestic electrical installation

I agree it is annoying when idiots are in competition with well trained electricians and taking work that they are not competent to carry out,but its the "customer only" who is responsible for that situation

We live in a world where price is the main and often the only concern of a customer
Some will manoeuvre their way through the minefield,avoid the chaff and employ sparks who are well trained,they may get an assurance of quality via their enquiries

Others will employ the man from the pub,the kitchen guy or the guy who thinks its simple but has no clue
Its the customers responsibility to try and ensure he gets what he pays for
Regulatory attempts have been so flawed the chances of the man in the pub having more competence than the registered spark is not so big a bet

The problem is something that is a consequence of the market place economy and the market place itself decides who will and will not obtain work
 
Domestic work, anyone and everyone dabbles in it, its a finished industry for decent sparks, its 90% semi skilled work.

Don't know why decent sparks persist trying to compete in the domestic game (maybe the cash jobs) How many domestic vans driving around out there with logo's trying to get work thinking they are proper business's, its laughable.

Better off working on a proper sites doing commercial/industrial work.
 
Domestic work, anyone and everyone dabbles in it, its a finished industry for decent sparks, its 90% semi skilled work.

Don't know why decent sparks persist trying to compete in the domestic game (maybe the cash jobs) How many domestic vans driving around out there with logo's trying to get work thinking they are proper business's, its laughable.

Better off working on a proper sites doing commercial/industrial work.
Got to disagree with you Anthony, whilst I also disagree with the down grading of Electricians who do mostly Domestic to DIs, in my opinion you are an Electrician, or you should be, what ever work you do.
The Training outfits are doing a disservice to the Trade by inventing DIs, a diluted Electrician, whilst I don't personally like the short cut way to qualification, I understand the situation, there are some very good Sparks coming from this route, and many bad ones.
The domestic route allows people to make a living, many Sparks can't get a foothold into the commercial/Industrial market so Domestic is all they have left, so please don't knock Domestic out of hand, I am a time served Electrician, don't like the short route but understand the dilemma, something I have to live with, we have several short route non Apprentice people on this forum, whom I regard as clever dedicated Electricians, and good luck to them, you do these people a disservice by laughing at them. Rant over:mad::p:Do_O
 
I know this is an old thread, however I found that I have great difficulty in getting a correct price for some jobs.
Builders seem to have their own ideas of prices ..
whilst they add on their percentage for a finders fee for the work.
I recently priced work at £200 for some sockets and lights in a new small extension.this was for a builder
Whilst doing the work, the owner was there, he was asking why I was charging £410 for the job!!!!
so maybe the builders that are driving down the prices are to blame ... needless to say I have made it clear to that builder now my prices are higher or I deal direct with the customer ..
 
I do like reading these rants.

Where I live we don't have the same problem with non-british under qualified individuals undercutting our prices. But saying that, I still find problems finding jobs.
When I started self employed last year everyone was saying there was a shortage, - everyone's crying out for electricians.... they'll be no trouble getting work. .... Hmm? I must be doing something wrong?
Your average homeowner doesn't understand the work involved - the testing, the paperwork, nevermind paying for overheads.
Your average homeowner still gripes about having to take a car to a main dealer instead of Dodgy Dave round the corner. But it has to be done to honour any warranty.... and the fact you need a computing degree rather than a mechanical qualification these days.

I was asked by someone to quote for a supply to a detached garage at their house. They got my number from a mutual friend who referred me. I asked for their address and we would arrange a visit to see what was needed.
So far I haven't heard back.
My wife thinks they got someone else to do it because I didn't give a price over the phone.
I had to explain to my wife that I can't just pluck numbers out of thin air.
If she thinks that way, then Mrs Average Homeowner may think the same.

Another recent job involved me making up a temporary board with 6 double sockets for a property that had had a burst pipe, so that the cleaning firm could dry it out. I was told my quote was too much, so I brought it down a bit. Still more than what they said their normal Edinburgh contractor quoted. I explained that it still had to be tested, certified and constructed to current regs.
Their normal contractor probably has a stock of temp board already made up that they move from job to job, and charge hundreds for them each time.
I got that job basically because the property is 50ft from my front door.
 
^^ you win some, you lose some.

It can take 3-5 years to build up a successful SE business........... so don't expect too much, too soon.

Thanks, Murdoch. Good advice.
Last year I was relying on family/friends jobs and word of mouth references, but now I've advertised in the local paper and a bit of sponsorship for the local village summer fair.
 
Thanks, Murdoch. Good advice.
Last year I was relying on family/friends jobs and word of mouth references, but now I've advertised in the local paper and a bit of sponsorship for the local village summer fair.

Just remember that in the quieter times you can take a bit more time and make sure everything is 110% correct ............. its the word of mouth referrals and repeat business you want ................ plus find a few complementary trades who might need your skills from time to time

AND don't be too reliant on too few customers ............... spread the risk around
 
For the first 9 months or so most of my work was coming from the print ads I had running. Then I started to get word of mouth referrals coming in (had one or two before this, but they were few and far between). The job I'm doing now came from a referral from someone I did a job for way back just after I started in 2016.

Everything else I would say... @Murdoch 's already said it. It's sound advice for anyone starting out.
 
^^ you win some, you lose some.

It can take 3-5 years to build up a successful SE business........... so don't expect too much, too soon.

re win some lose some, how true is that . I recently spent a lot of time sorting out a lot of things for a friend of the family. Probably about a days free work all in ..they wanted downlights changed over and when I gave them a quote
because it wasn't free time they went elsewhere and paid double what I quoted...
also, they had the cheek to say I was taking advantage of the friendship by charging for my time !!!!!

argggghh
 
re win some lose some, how true is that . I recently spent a lot of time sorting out a lot of things for a friend of the family. Probably about a days free work all in ..they wanted downlights changed over and when I gave them a quote
because it wasn't free time they went elsewhere and paid double what I quoted...
also, they had the cheek to say I was taking advantage of the friendship by charging for my time !!!!!

argggghh
What an insult.
 
Why are people going on about jobs they didn’t notify?
From what I can see, the jobs don’t need to be notified.
Outside light, outside PIR, unless they were not fixed to the exterior of the building, never needed to be notified.
 
Hi Jim / JK (think it's Jim from a quick search)
I have noticed a major cut in standards from others.
I have 1 local firm who issue EICR's that are not signed and things like SPD being checked are ticked in domestic installs where there are none and nobody bats an eyelid.
The letting agent still uses them

I have used the mybuilder etc. a couple of times 9-10 years ago and binned that.

I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.

I prefer to let the 'bottom feeders' get all the cheap stuff as they are welcome to it.
My rate is £40 for the first hour and £35 per hour afterwards.

I am booked up till the end of April so things are OK.
 
Hi Jim / JK (think it's Jim from a quick search)
I have noticed a major cut in standards from others.
I have 1 local firm who issue EICR's that are not signed and things like SPD being checked are ticked in domestic installs where there are none and nobody bats an eyelid.
The letting agent still uses them

I have used the mybuilder etc. a couple of times 9-10 years ago and binned that.

I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.

I prefer to let the 'bottom feeders' get all the cheap stuff as they are welcome to it.
My rate is £40 for the first hour and £35 per hour afterwards.

I am booked up till the end of April so things are OK.
 
Hi Jim / JK (think it's Jim from a quick search)
It is indeed Jim. And like your good self, I too am bald.:D
I have noticed a major cut in standards from others.
Me too, I'm afraid. I'm extremely annoyed and concerned about what I've witnessed over the years and am now actively involved in trying to get the Scottish Government do something about it. Thankfully, the ball is now rolling at long last and momentum will now surely increase.

http://www.select.org.uk/selects-campaign-recognition-professional-electricians-raised-holyrood

The sooner those who are incompetent and unqualified are identified and prohibited from working on electrical installations the better.
I have 1 local firm who issue EICR's that are not signed and things like SPD being checked are ticked in domestic installs where there are none and nobody bats an eyelid.
These underhand practices defeat the purpose of an EICR entirely. I've just started doing EICRs for a Glasgow-based agency who got rid of their previous contractors for this very reason.
The letting agent still uses them.
That's because the agent couldn't care less about the quality of the report. All they're interested in is getting the report done as cheaply as possible and seeing the word 'Satisfactory' at the bottom of page 1.
I have used the mybuilder etc. a couple of times 9-10 years ago and binned that.
I've done over 100 jobs that came via My Builder, but have only done one through the site since last September. I got fed-up of being continually undercut by young boys out to make a name for themselves. The average age of these guys must be around 20. It would appear that they come out of school, go to college for 3 years then go straight to My Builder and Rated People. Indeed, every time I log-on there are inevitably more fresh-faced boys using the site, crowding-out an already overcrowded market.

I've had to compete in my own locality in Glasgow with guys traveling from places like Stirling, Dundee and Ayr. Seriously. When EICRs, smoke alarm installations and rewires come up, they all gather like flies round the proverbial turd undercutting one another right, left and centre. When a rewire job appears so too do the "we've done thousands of house rewires in 10 years and we'll do your house in a day" rewiring "specialists". I'm glad that I don't have to rely on My Builder for work.
I DO carry out EICR'S as a loss leader (and do test them to a good standard). I get around 95% of the remedials and that's where I make my money.
I won't budge on my prices for EICRs. I have a fixed-price tariff depending on the size and age of the property which is non-negotiable. The customer either accepts my price or I walk.
I prefer to let the 'bottom feeders' get all the cheap stuff as they are welcome to it.
That's my policy too. The problem though, is that the bottom-feeders also want a slice of the action for the lucrative jobs such as rewires and are active in that sector of the domestic market too.
My rate is £40 for the first hour and £35 per hour afterwards.
I'm struggling to get anywhere near those rates at the moment. That's how bad things are up in Glasgow right now. The city is absolutely hoaching with young boys working for pocket-money and they've all but killed the domestic market stone-dead. Thanks to these clowns, some landlords now expect to have an EICR done for £40, two interlinked smoke alarms and one interlinked heat alarm installed for £100, sockets installed for £25, and houses rewired for £1500. These young fools have created unrealistic customer expectations and distorted the market by way of their cut-throat competition. But ultimately, it is their own throats that are being cut because sooner or later their foolishness will catch-up with them and their businesses will suffer accordingly.
I am booked up till the end of April so things are OK.
I'm pleased to hear that. I think I'll start operating in your neck of the woods. :D
 
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It's not the "Sparkychicks" of the world I was referring to, there are many on this Forum who have had to take this route, who are becoming, or have become good Sparks, I personally don't like the short course route, but then I'm a Mature Electrician as someone called me a while back, and find the short courses alien. I should have made my comments clearer, no, I was aiming my ire to the Jack the Lad type who post a 1 liner "how do I do this or that, thanks" not the Guys and Gals who have proven themselves worthy of the title Electrician, if you have ever checked the information on some of the profiles perhaps you will understand my concerns, an example: what electrical qualifications do you hold :Enough, All of them, are two examples that come to mind.
It's not the "Sparkychicks" of the world I was referring to, there are many on this Forum who have had to take this route, who are becoming, or have become good Sparks, I personally don't like the short course route, but then I'm a Mature Electrician as someone called me a while back, and find the short courses alien. I should have made my comments clearer, no, I was aiming my ire to the Jack the Lad type who post a 1 liner "how do I do this or that, thanks" not the Guys and Gals who have proven themselves worthy of the title Electrician, if you have ever checked the information on some of the profiles perhaps you will understand my concerns, an example: what electrical qualifications do you hold :Enough, All of them, are two examples that come to mind.
Crikey DelBoyBully your old tag is a bit od isn't it? cushty Rodders, Mon Ami, mon due.
 
It is indeed Jim. And like your good self, I too am bald.:D

Me too, I'm afraid. I'm extremely annoyed and concerned about what I've witnessed over the years and am now actively involved in trying to get the Scottish Government do something about it. Thankfully, the ball is now rolling at long last and momentum will now surely increase.

http://www.select.org.uk/selects-campaign-recognition-professional-electricians-raised-holyrood

The sooner those who are incompetent and unqualified are identified and prohibited from working on electrical installations the better.

These underhand practices defeat the purpose of an EICR entirely. I've just started doing EICRs for a Glasgow-based agency who got rid of their previous contractors for this very reason.

That's because the agent couldn't care less about the quality of the report. All they're interested in is getting the report done as cheaply as possible and seeing the word 'Satisfactory' at the bottom of page 1.

I've done over 100 jobs that came via My Builder, but have only done one through the site since last September. I got fed-up of being continually undercut by young boys out to make a name for themselves. The average age of these guys must be around 20. It would appear that they come out of school, go to college for 3 years then go straight to My Builder and Rated People. Indeed, every time I log-on there are inevitably more fresh-faced boys using the site, crowding-out an already overcrowded market.

I've had to compete in my own locality in Glasgow with guys traveling from places like Stirling, Dundee and Ayr. Seriously. When EICRs, smoke alarm installations and rewires come up, they all gather like flies round the proverbial turd undercutting one another right, left and centre. When a rewire job appears so too do the "we've done thousands of house rewires in 10 years and we'll do your house in a day" rewiring "specialists". I'm glad that I don't have to rely on My Builder for work.

I won't budge on my prices for EICRs. I have a fixed-price tariff depending on the size and age of the property which is non-negotiable. The customer either accepts my price or I walk.

That's my policy too. The problem though, is that the bottom-feeders also want a slice of the action for the lucrative jobs such as rewires and are active in that sector of the domestic market too.

I'm struggling to get anywhere near those rates at the moment. That's how bad things are up in Glasgow right now. The city is absolutely hoaching with young boys working for pocket-money and they've all but killed the domestic market stone-dead. Thanks to these clowns, some landlords now expect to have an EICR done for £40, two interlinked smoke alarms and one interlinked heat alarm installed for £100, sockets installed for £25, and houses rewired for £1500. These young fools have created unrealistic customer expectations and distorted the market by way of their cut-throat competition. But ultimately, it is their own throats that are being cut because sooner or later their foolishness will catch-up with them and their businesses will suffer accordingly.

I'm pleased to hear that. I think I'll start operating in your neck of the woods. :D
Is he still knocking about? I thought he went under....
 
I get a few jobs from landlords and I don't lower prices to get jobs. There is a lot of competition in the area I cover, however what i find is that keeping in touch and up dating the customer is important. IE if you are going to be late, then a phone call goes a long way.
tidying up your mess or at least offering to.!
I also show my qualification and insurance documents when quoting for a job.
This has been met with a very positive response.
In fact customers state they haven't had that before and weren't sure how to check tradesman's qualifications.
Whilst Select are pushing for their own agenda through parliament. I don't agree that I need to join a membership scheme to get work.
Recently I've had jobs to look at and sort work that others (who are members of these schemes )have signed off and left in an unsatisfactory or unsafe state. (my work has then tested and been passed by others )
Scottish Gov brought in standards for landlords for eicrs... I have had to explain to several landlords that their is no legal requirement for me to be a member of these schemes to complete pat or eicrs etc.
I understand the need for standards.
However my understanding is that all you need a supervisor to be tested by select or nicec, that allows your company to be a member. a
Also you can't join unless you are a sjib approved electrician. as I'm self employed i don't have the opportunity to supervise others to get this grade.

Does this mean I will have to go and get employed by a company to get this grading - to become self-employed in the future again ?
 
I get a few jobs from landlords and I don't lower prices to get jobs.
Although I do EICRs for landlords directly, most of the EICRs I do are done via letting agents. More often than not, surprise is expressed by landlords when they discover that the lowest price I am prepared to do an EICR for is £100. A lot of them are under the impression that the "standard" price for an EICR is between £40-£60. I remind them that they will always get what they pay for and walk away if they attempt to reduce the price as I feel that my prices are reasonable and since I don't need to lower them in order to secure work, I refuse to haggle.
There is a lot of competition in the area I cover, however what i find is that keeping in touch and up dating the customer is important. IE if you are going to be late, then a phone call goes a long way. tidying up your mess or at least offering to.!
Aye, Glasgow is indeed a crowded marketplace. I'm sure that you'll be aware that there are people up here offering to do EICRs for as low as £40. Quite how anyone can do an EICR properly for that kind of money beats me. Either they are happy to work for £10 an hour, or they aren't doing the job properly. On the basis of the evidence that I have seen to date, I know which of the two scenarios is the most likely. I read an EICR a fortnight ago wherein varied trip times were listed for each circuit on a 10-way split-load board which was configured to provide RCD protection for only three circuits. Go figure!

Extending the common courtesy of letting customers know if you're running late and offering to clean-up behind yourself when you've completed the job should be second-nature and it is good to hear that you are a courteous electrician. As you say, a little respect goes a long way.
I also show my qualification and insurance documents when quoting for a job. This has been met with a very positive response. In fact customers state they haven't had that before and weren't sure how to check tradesman's qualifications.
The easiest way for a customer to check an electrician's qualifications is to ask to see his SJIB card. A photograph of the electrician will be embossed on the front of the card along with his NI number, and his qualifications will be printed on the back.
Whilst Select are pushing for their own agenda through parliament. I don't agree that I need to join a membership scheme to get work.
SELECT have been actively campaigning for several years to persuade the Scottish Government to give professional recognition to Scottish electricians and acknowledge the training and experience which bona fide qualified electricians are required to possess. I fully support the campaign. There are far too many unqualified and under-qualified people carrying-out electrical work in Scotland and something needs to be done about it. These charlatans need to be identified and driven-out of the trade for good. If this means that every electrician needs to become registered and the introduction of a law making it a criminal offence to carry-out electrical work if not registered, then so be it. Whatever it takes.
Recently I've had jobs to look at and sort work that others (who are members of these schemes )have signed off and left in an unsatisfactory or unsafe state. (my work has then tested and been passed by others )
Perhaps you might consider reporting such incidences to SELECT or NICEIC.
Scottish Gov brought in standards for landlords for eicrs... I have had to explain to several landlords that their is no legal requirement for me to be a member of these schemes to complete pat or eicrs etc. I understand the need for standards.
Although membership of SELECT and/or NICEIC is not a pre-requisite for electricians carrying-out EICRs in Scotland, non-members should be able to satisfy all ten requirements as outlined on page 13 of Annex A of the Scottish Government publication Electrical Installations And Appliances In Private Rented Properties.

Documentary evidence of competence to carry out an Electrical Installation Condition Report for the purposes of assessing the safety of electrical installations, fittings and fixtures in private rented property should be provided to the landlord/letting agent along with a signed and dated copy of the checklist which should also include the name and the trading name of the electrician carrying-out the EICR. The point of this exercise is that since the landlord is ultimately legally responsibility for ensuring electrical safety in any property that they let, they must priorly satisfy themselves that whoever they hire to carry-out EICRs on their behalf has the necessary skills, knowledge and qualifications to do so.
However my understanding is that all you need a supervisor to be tested by select or nicec, that allows your company to be a member. Also you can't join unless you are a sjib approved electrician. as I'm self employed i don't have the opportunity to supervise others to get this grade. Does this mean I will have to go and get employed by a company to get this grading - to become self-employed in the future again ?
As I've never applied for NICEIC membership, and never will, I don't know what the entry requirements are for electricians based in Scotland who wish to join. However, as a SELECT member, I can confirm that in order to be considered for membership you don't necessarily have to be a qualified supervisor, but you would, however, need to be an SJIB approved electrician and have been trading for at least six months.
 
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JK thanks for your reply.

That's madness £40 for EICR ...how is that cost effective ....?
When I'm asked to reduce my prices
i say something along the lines
do you ask the mechanic to mot and service your car for £60? probably not so please don't ask me to service and MOT your electrical system on the cheap.
I know the PAT market is also exploited, I don't charge per item. I charge an hourly rate .probably explains why I don't get much in the way of that work. However I've found that when I provide a list of items tested with a relevant certificate and don't sticky label all their equipment (unless its a fail) ..I get offered other and /or repeat work.

I'm aware that the previous jobs could be reported however when I get the EICR the Electrical company details are redacted by the council . must be a data protection thing. I tell the landlord they should re-approach the company they employed or report them.

Re joining Select or others, I haven't been graded as an approved electrician, as its years since having a SJIB card probably because I never needed one.
I think I'm stuck in a well where that's concerned, I may have the knowledge and certification etc,but because I'm a sole trader, I don't have a supervisor to verify my work etc.

I still do my cyber and business resilience work and supplement my income with electrical work.
My hours are limited around picking up and dropping of my kids at school as well.

hope you are kept busy and don't let them grind you down. People don't always want the cheapest they want the job done correctly
 
JK thanks for your reply.
You're welcome DC. :)
That's madness £40 for EICR ...how is that cost effective ....?
It is indeed, but there is method to this madness. One the one hand, some of those who offer these crazy prices no doubt do so as a 'loss leader' in the hope that they will cop for any remedial work that arises as they will then be able to make a tidy profit overall even if it means converting what should be a C3 code to a C2 or even a C1.

On the other hand, there are unscrupulous 'electricians' doing EICRs at this insane price who just don't bother doing the necessary level of inspection and testing. The reports that these tricksters issue tend to have a predominance of five letters L, I, M, N, and A. Not that landlords or letting agents care. All they want to see is the word Satisfactory appear on page 2 of the "landlord's electrical safety certificate".
When I'm asked to reduce my prices i say something along the lines do you ask the mechanic to mot and service your car for £60? probably not so please don't ask me to service and MOT your electrical system on the cheap.
That would be my line too. Indeed, one gentlemen of Pakistani origin once enquired of me if I could match a quotation of £50 that some joker had given him to carry-out an EICR on a three-bedroom flat in the west-end of Glasgow. I told him that when the day comes where I am able to come to his restaurant and order chicken pakora for 50 pence, a king prawn madras with mushroom rice and garlic naan for £2.50, and a pint of heavy for 75 pence, that would be the day when I do an EICR on his three-bedroom flat for £50. He hung-up on me and I haven't heard from him since. :D

If there's one thing that seriously ----es me off big-time, it's people who live in houses that cost seven-figures who own a portfolio of properties that each cost six-figure sums, who drive top-of-the-range cars that cost five-figure sums, and whose homes are adorned with Italian leather sofas that cost four-figure sums moaning about my three-figure fee for an EICR. Such greedy bastards can go forth and multiply. I don't want their custom.
I know the PAT market is also exploited, I don't charge per item.
Me neither. The prices that I charge for an EICR in a private letting includes all portable appliance testing as this is usually never more than three or four items.
I charge an hourly rate .probably explains why I don't get much in the way of that work.
I charge an hourly rate for EICRs too. It usually takes me anywhere between 3-6 hours to do an EICR and type-up the report depending on the size and type of property and the condition of the installation. My fees reflect the time involved which is charged on an hourly basis, with there being a £100 minimum charge. While this might be considered 'expensive' in the present marketplace in Glasgow, I'm sure some of our colleagues south of the border would consider my prices inexpensive.
However I've found that when I provide a list of items tested with a relevant certificate and don't sticky label all their equipment (unless its a fail) ..I get offered other and /or repeat work.
In order to comply with the relevant legislation affecting electrical safety in privately let properties in Scotland, it is a requirement that a Portable Appliance Test Certificate be issued in conjunction with an EICR. I would be very surprised indeed if a letting agent didn't notice that a valid PA test certificate wasn't submitted along with an EICR.
I'm aware that the previous jobs could be reported however when I get the EICR the Electrical company details are redacted by the council. must be a data protection thing. I tell the landlord they should re-approach the company they employed or report them.
That is precisely what I would do in the same circumstances.
Re joining Select or others, I haven't been graded as an approved electrician, as its years since having a SJIB card probably because I never needed one.
That was pretty much my situation too. I didn't bother to renew my original JIB grade card and let it lapse. However, when I reapplied for my grading card I had to first sit the ECS exam, which is so easy you would have to be incredibly stupid to fail. Upon receiving my SJIB card I was surprised to discover that I had been downgraded from Approved Electrician to Electrician, and to be regraded back up I then had to do the Inspection and Testing course and take the exam. It was at this point where I decided to become a probationary member of SELECT as this would then entitle me to a generous reduction in the cost of the course (£415 plus VAT for non-members, £250 plus VAT for members). SELECT's probationary member scheme gives you a year to get your qualifications up-to-date, and once you're back up to speed you can then reapply to the SJIB to be upgraded to an Approved Electrician. You can then apply to become a full member of SELECT once you've been regraded.
I think I'm stuck in a well where that's concerned, I may have the knowledge and certification etc,but because I'm a sole trader, I don't have a supervisor to verify my work etc. I still do my cyber and business resilience work and supplement my income with electrical work. My hours are limited around picking up and dropping of my kids at school as well
You're not stuck at all DC! Should you ever decide to apply for SELECT membership, you would be required to nominate three jobs that you have carried-out in the last year upon which your competency will be assessed. I'm sure you would pass with flying colours!:)
hope you are kept busy and don't let them grind you down.
You too bud. :)

I'm usually kept busy regardless of the fact that I have to compete with boys not long out of college and guys from Stirling, Dundee and Ayr operating in Glasgow. I have a good reputation and get most of my work through recommendations. I assume it's the same with you too.
People don't always want the cheapest they want the job done correctly.
The moral of which is that the guy offering the customer rock-bottom prices is the guy most likely to not do the job properly! You know the type ..... the ones who quote prices over the phone for consumer unit upgrades without first having visited the customer and assessed the installation to determine whether or not the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate. The ones who don't test the installation prior to the board changeover so to determine whether IR values are within limits, and that there are no existing faults present on the installation. The ones who just hope that an RCD doesn't trip when the installation is re-engerised. The ones who don't provide the customer with an Electrical Installation Certificate for the board upgrade. The ones whose sharp practices are largely responsible for the race to the bottom happening in the first place.
 
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Jk got to agree with your points.
I might have a look at SELECT again after your input.
I'm getting enough work to tick over,however some places are just not accepting that I don't need to be a member of one of these schemes to get /do the work properly , funnily enough builders seem to be the most fussy ones.

re the pat testing : its been places that are between EICR testing dates.
Two hadn't been given certificates and just had green labels stuck on items.
customer were asking why I was opening up plugs on heaters etc?
until I showed some damaged plastic in the moulded plug at the fuse holder.
the heater passed the PAT testing via the meter but failed due to the melted plastic obviously.

on checking where the heaters were usually plugged in I noticed the sockets were scorched and brittle .
They (customer) gave me their other branch to check and found the same problems (similar older type heaters) . (yep I tested the socket circuit )
Again by doing the job properly got me more work. I was dearer than the last guy who had charged about £2 an item. although when they saw that things were failing and being inspected properly they were delighted. They realised they had to be safe

I don't mind pat testing every so often but couldn't do it full time lol

haha that's brilliant re the curry and beer prices .. although I bet he got someone to do it for those prices and possibly a free curry .
 

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