DIY Motor Switch Wiring

[Icurnvs]

Hello! I'm trying to replace a reversible AC boat lift motor switch with a wireless relay switch. The current switch has 6 wire connections and the wireless switch only has 5. Can somebody help me with wiring the wireless relay correctly. The drum switch is the original working setup and the white box is the new wireless relay. Thanks for any help!

 

[Darkwood]

The difficulty here (and the same one you are probably facing) is we lack information, we would preferably need both the motor connection diagram and the old switching internal connection layout, we could probably work it out with the motor information alone though as we have the connection diagram on the new controller.
Unless we have a member who has worked specifically with the unidentified motor and is familiar with that exact original switching block which is also lacking info then you will need to give us a lot more detail to move forward.

 

[DPG]

Also, haven't you got live and neutral the wrong way round?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

As per @Darkwood we need more info. There is a possibility that additional relays will be needed. The motor has four connections to the original switch, suggesting it has separate main and auxiliary windings. In that case, operating the drum switch closes four separate contacts, to select the correct relative phasing of the two windings for the desired direction.

The wireless switch only closes one contact in each direction. This is sufficient for use with permanent-split-capacitor motors, where direction is selected by which of the two windings the hot is connected to, but the other is fed by the internal capacitor. This can be overcome by using the single contact to operate a multipole relay for each direction.

And yes, that's a European power cord you have there, in which brown = L = hot and blue = N = neutral.

 

[Icurnvs]

Hi Guys! Thank you all for the reply! I figured this would be a simple install converting this boat lift to a wireless switch and also thought AC motor wiring was somewhat standardized. Guess I was wrong!

Lucien, If I am understanding correctly, the new switch is a Singe-Pole Double-Throw (SPDT) switch but I would need a Double-Pole Double-Throw (DPDT) Switch for the motor to run correctly. Do you have recommendations on a relay setup that would convert this new switch into a DPDT setup? This would probably be a good idea anyway since the manufacturer recommends a working load of 5amps on the new switch and I think the motor may draw more than that when lifting my boat. Currently their is no boat on the lift so power draw should be minimal for testing.

I'll try to run out to the lake today to get better pictures of the switches and motor labels. It's a 80 mile round trip drive so is their anything else i should get pictures of while i'm out there that may help solve this issue?

FacePalm I planned on using the existing power cord off the boat lift that had American standard White/Black/Green but cut the end off a computer power supply cord to use for testing and to my surprise found the cord had Blue/Brown/Yellow. A quick google search of which is Hot and which is Neutral of course failed me. thank you all for catching this!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Any info / model numbers / schematics for the motor or switch and pics of any and all connections. If the motor has a separate terminal box or capacitor box, flip that open to reveal the connections, and if you are lucky there might be a schematic on the inside of the cover.

If there is no explicit wiring information such as a schematic, and you have a multimeter, with the power off (for at least 3 minutes) and the drum switch dsconnected, measure the resistance between each motor wire and each other (six readings total). For each reading you will either see open-circuit, a low resistance of a few ohms or tens of ohms (which is a winding) or a reading that increases towards infinity after connecting the probes or otherwise behaves oddly (a winding in series with a capacitor).

 

[Icurnvs]

Hi Guys! I got out to the lake and took a bunch more pictures and took ohm readings just in case it would help. below is the readings i took and better pictures of the switch and motor label. Please let me know if there is anything else needed to help solve this. Thanks again for all of your help!

Black-Orange = 0.6-0.7 ohms
Black-Red = Open
Black-white = Open
Orange-Red = Open
Orange-White = Open
Red-White = Ohms kept jumping around and slowly fading, guessing this is the winding in series with the capacitor?

The Orignal Furnas Drum switch was wired as outlet power cord to Line = L1, Neutral = L2. Motor wires as 1 = Red, 2 = Orange, 3 = White, and 4 = Black

 

[Icurnvs]

I should also add that I have removed the Blue/Brown/Yellow power cord and plan to use the power cord off the drum switch for my outlet power to the new switch. Black/L1/Line and White/L2/Neutral ?

 

[Soi disant]

the cord had Blue/Brown/Yellow. A quick google search of which is Hot and which is Neutral of course failed me. thank you all for catching this!

Should you need to remember ever again:

Bloo Nootral.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The resistance readings are all as expected. Yes, orange/black is the main winding and red/white is the auxiliary winding with the capacitor. This is correct for 120V (low voltage) rather than 240 (high). Therefore, the motor is reversed by exchanging the two connections of one winding relative to the other. In the original Furnas switch, operating the handle connects the capacitor winding to the supply via terminals 1 & 3 in the same orientation regardless of direction, but connects the main winding via terminals 2 & 4 to the supply in different orientation for forward and reverse.
Forward: Hot -> 1 & 2, Neutral -> 3 & 4
Reverse: Hot -> 1 & 4, Neutral -> 3 & 2

Before you make any modifications, please consider that this machinery can cause injury or death in the event of malfunction. You must take responsibility for compliance with all applicable local and national codes and law. For example, if you modify the controls and a malfunction occurs that makes it impossible to stop the motor, and a person is injured or killed as a result, you might be held liable for the injury as the designer and installer of the new controls, even if the malfunction was not due to a fault in your own work. As contributors to a public forum, we accept no responsibility for the accuracy or sufficiency of any information that you might use. Nothing I contribute to this thread constitutes instructions to carry out work; it is for information only.

My approach would be to get a ready-built, reversing starter for a single-phase, 6-wire capacitor-start induction-run motor of sufficient hp rating for your motor. It would come with two contactors interlocked (to prevent one operating before the other has released, which otherwise causes a short-circuit). Both mechanical and electrical interlocking are usually provided. Then, I would connect the output of the remote control receiver to the forward and reverse control inputs of the starter. I would disconnect the internal holding contacts so that the starter contactors only operate when there is an output from the receiver.

Useful explanations and schematics here:

Interlocking Methods for Reversing Control (Basic Control Circuits)

Interlocking Methods for Reversing Control (Basic Control Circuits)

www.industrial-electronics.com

 

[Icurnvs]

Thank you for your reply! This information is very helpful! To be clear, I accept any and all liabilities that come with modifying any of the wires or switches on this boat lift. Whether I use the information you provide or not.

Do you have a recommendation on a reversing starter that would work with the new switch?

thanks again for all the help!

 

[Icurnvs]

Shouldn't I be able to use a 2 pole contactor to use for CW motor direction and another 2 pole contactor to use for CCW direction? The coil of which contactor would be excited based off of which direction the wireless switch is calling for? Is there a reason this would not work?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The very bare minimum needed to make it work is 3 poles carrying motor current;, one to switch the hot side of the winding that does not reverse, plus two to switch hot and neutral for the one that does. That leaves one side of one winding permanently connected to neutral; some standards call for it to be disconnected in both poles in which case you need four. Then if you need an electrical interlock there's a 5th normally-closed pole in series with the opposite contactor's coil.

In theory it can be made to work with two 2-pole contactors, one pole of each being a change-over. This method is used for low-voltage DC motors, but is not recommended (and probably not code-compliant) in this case because of the possibility of flashover from hot to neutral at the contacts.

 

[Icurnvs]

Awesome! Thanks again for the reply! I plan to get two contactors (pictured below)
For Forward, i'll connect one contactor:
Hot -> L1
Neutral -> L2
1 & 2 (Red & Orange) -> T1
3 & 4 (White & Black) -> T2
Using the wireless switch, I will connect the coil to "Forward" and "Common"

For Reverse, I'll connect the second contactor:
Hot -> L1
Neutral -> L2
1 & 4 (Red & Black) -> T1
3 & 2 (White & Orange) -> T2
Using the wireless switch, I will connect the coil to "Reverse" and "Common"

I don't believe I need an interlock because the wireless switch will not activate one direction without first deactivating the other direction.

Is there anything I may be missing in this setup? Should I use a separate power cord for the wireless switch or would I be able to use Hot and Neutral that will be connected to the contactors?

And again, Thank you for all the help!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Is there anything I may be missing in this setup?

Yes, at least one pole on each contactor. I did say::

The very bare minimum needed to make it work is 3 poles carrying motor current;, one to switch the hot side of the winding that does not reverse, plus two to switch hot and neutral for the one that does.

Your suggestion has all four motor wires permanently connected together: (Red to orange at Fwd T1, orange to white at Rev T2, white to black at Fwd T2). Operating either contactor will short-circuit the supply and trip the breaker with a bang.

I don't believe I need an interlock because the wireless switch will not activate one direction without first deactivating the other direction.

That's up to you, if you've checked the timing of the wireless control outputs, the operate and release lags of the contactors, etc. Again, if one contactor closes before the arc has been quenched at the other, you get a bang and a tripped breaker.

 

[Icurnvs]

Of course! After thinking about it, that would have everything shorting out. New plan with bare minimum two 3-pole contactors (pictured below):

Forward contactor:
Hot -> L1
Hot -> L2
Neutral & 3 (White) -> L3
T1 -> 1 (Red)
T2 -> 2 (Orange)
T3 -> 4 (Black)

Reverse contactor:
Hot -> L1
Hot -> L2
Neutral & 3 (White) -> L3
T1 -> 1 (Red)
T2 -> 4 (Black)
T3 -> 2 (Orange)

3 (White) stays permanently connected to the Neutral power source. 2 & 4 (Orange & Black) get swapped between Hot and Neutral.

If I can get my hands on a 4-Pole Contactor, I'll move 3 white to T4 and another Neutral to L4

Is this a scenario that should work? It's tough for me to visualize all the connections and I get lost in my diagram scribbles ?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Icurnvs]

Well, this is what I came up with. The wireless control box activates the coil on one of the contactors chosen by which direction is called for on the remote. Hot and Neutral get swapped for the start winding depending on which contactor gets activated. Thank you all for the help!

 

[marconi]

please tell us how well this works in practice, we like to know about outcomes.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Yes that looks as though it would work, although I also think it looks unfinished without the interlock. Don't forget to add whatever manual and emergency switching is required at the winch location. Consider the situation that the radio receiver goes nuts and starts randomly winding the thing up or down, or goes dead and you get stuck halfway up. I would like a 'local / remote' changeover switch to select either the receiver outputs or manual up and down buttons, an an emergency stop that cuts all control power. Again, up to you to comply with safety codes on that.

Not sure what tool you are using to crimp those 0.25" receptacles but visually the results seem a little variable. The crimp placement seems inconsistent and it is not putting the strain relief crimp around the insulation. FWIW It should be impossible to move or pull the conductor out of the terminal without destroying either the wire or the terminal.