Do I need to test an old wiring installation?

[KingKenny]

Had a feeling that was the case from the setup in the picture and the description of the property. How 'north' is north? East or West? I've had to contend with a few similar properties. I presume this isn't a crofters house - they wouldn't willingly pay for smoke detectors and crofting properties are rarely of concrete construction. Somebody mentioned earlier that the smokes were on the heating board, is it a THTC board?

Ha Ha! - It's on the Western Isles, mate. It's not a crofter's house as such, just built in that 'style' in one of the small townships that abound. The man of the house passed away quite a while ago and I think his wife ordered or was persuaded to upgrade the smoke detection and heating. It all seems reasonably sound, but I'll find out more next week. The smoke detectors are on the same circuiyt as water boost and a couple of other things (can't recall of the top of my head), but aren't on the same circuit as storage heating. The ring, radial and lighting are in a mess though. It isn't the lil (little old lady) ordering the work though, it's her son I've been dealing with. Fairly sharp bloke, except when it comes to wiring a plug.

 

[oldtimer]

Have you read the subsequent posts or just climbed on your soapbox again?

Now as I said in a previous post, I do not do domestic toy boy installations, I do real electrical work so if your happy that a given installation is perfectly safe after a test then that's fine, no need to rewire, cables these days are better quality than years ago, but as various home insulation materials over the years have been known to have detrimental effects on cables that are covered or buried in them, this much be taken into consideration when deciding if a given installation may require a partial or total rewire. Clearly this will depend on the level of scrutiny your able to give it under a visual inspection.

You talk about soapbox but your handle outspoken infers the same is the any chance you could give your ego a rest as in my view all you seem to be doing is having a pop for the sake of it .

O and by the way before you try and slag me off I have an Industrial & Commercial background been lucky to work across most electrical fields and I am happy to help always learning don't have an ego to bruise and actually state where I come from because I aint that insecure

 

[Outspoken]

You talk about soapbox but your handle outspoken infers the same is the any chance you could give your ego a rest as in my view all you seem to be doing is having a pop for the sake of it .

O and by the way before you try and slag me off I have an Industrial & Commercial background been lucky to work across most electrical fields and I am happy to help always learning don't have an ego to bruise and actually state where I come from because I aint that insecure

OT, no ego here and only speaking out when people are clearly not reading the entire thread or an entire post then having a pop at me...if they can read they should and perhaps they would then avoid making posts that provoke the response I gave.

Incidentally I do not see that your background in Industrial or Commercial makes a lot of difference, anymore than mine does or someone who specialises in domestic, we are all qualified sparks, we just have different experiences and can all read a regs book if we can be arsed.

 

[richy3333]

Ha Ha! - It's on the Western Isles, mate. It's not a crofter's house as such, just built in that 'style' in one of the small townships that abound. The man of the house passed away quite a while ago and I think his wife ordered or was persuaded to upgrade the smoke detection and heating. It all seems reasonably sound, but I'll find out more next week. The smoke detectors are on the same circuiyt as water boost and a couple of other things (can't recall of the top of my head), but aren't on the same circuit as storage heating. The ring, radial and lighting are in a mess though. It isn't the lil (little old lady) ordering the work though, it's her son I've been dealing with. Fairly sharp bloke, except when it comes to wiring a plug.

Aah, OK. Sorry to quiz but I was worried that you were one of the unregistered spark around my way that keeps leaving dangerous installations in their wake!
The pics not great, but the board does look like a THTC setup, if so they have potentially taken the smokes off the perm live feed, which isn't allowed under Hyrdo/SSE rules. If things are that messy, it sounds like a rewire is the order of the day. Good job for you

 

[dave1064]

I would definitely suggest a rewire. If you are saying these sockets are wired as a radial then the protectice device cannot be rated at more than 20A.

If the sockets and lights are missing earths this must be sorted to meet the standards of current regulations. BS7671. If it is a conduit system then the conduit could be used as a means of earthing. That way a seperate c.p.c is not required.

My advice would be to rewire the radial circuits and create a ring circuit instead. Definitely check out the JBs as you often find all kinds of things in there!

Hope you find this helpful.

 

[Outspoken]

If it is a conduit system then the conduit could be used as a means of earthing. That way a seperate c.p.c is not required.

But you have to be sure the conduit system meets the requirements of Reg 543.2.2, Reg 543.2.6 and reg 543.2.7

In a commercial/Industrial setting I would not rely on it due to the possibility of external influences damaging the conduit and perhaps causing a break in your protection, and most conduit systems in domestic premises from my experience years ago tends to be the old rolled type and is not continuous in a way that would satisfy the regs.

 

[dave1064]

But you have to be sure the conduit system meets the requirements of Reg 543.2.2, Reg 543.2.6 and reg 543.2.7

In a commercial/Industrial setting I would not rely on it due to the possibility of external influences damaging the conduit and perhaps causing a break in your protection, and most conduit systems in domestic premises from my experience years ago tends to be the old rolled type and is not continuous in a way that would satisfy the regs.

Hence why we carry out inspection and testing. I was only meaning the conduit could have been used as a means of Earth. I would prefer to run a seperate c.p.c in any circuits I install.

Conduit installed properly to satisfy the regs and protected against external influences is satisfactory to be used as a means of Earthing.

 

[Outspoken]

 

[KingKenny]

Aah, OK. Sorry to quiz but I was worried that you were one of the unregistered spark around my way that keeps leaving dangerous installations in their wake!
The pics not great, but the board does look like a THTC setup, if so they have potentially taken the smokes off the perm live feed, which isn't allowed under Hyrdo/SSE rules. If things are that messy, it sounds like a rewire is the order of the day. Good job for you

No, richy - I don't and won't leave dangerous installations around anywhere. I've not done many big jobs as yet, but I'd like to think I'm meticulous in how I go about things - at the very least I would never ever leave a premises knowing full well I've left anyone in danger - even if that means calling in someone more experienced than me and me losing the payday.

 

[KingKenny]

I would definitely suggest a rewire. If you are saying these sockets are wired as a radial then the protectice device cannot be rated at more than 20A.

If the sockets and lights are missing earths this must be sorted to meet the standards of current regulations. BS7671. If it is a conduit system then the conduit could be used as a means of earthing. That way a seperate c.p.c is not required.

My advice would be to rewire the radial circuits and create a ring circuit instead. Definitely check out the JBs as you often find all kinds of things in there!

Hope you find this helpful.

Thank You, Dave. My intention is to totally replace D/L Lighting, U/L Lighting, Upstairs Ring (lounge, Bedroom, Hall), downstairs ring (Bedroom, Kitchen, downstairs hall), Cooker, (new) Shower on separate radials. Main Bonding needs to be upgraded too - the existing cable is painted, plastered into the wall in the bathroom. C/U unit will (obviously) be replaced. My only question is whether I have the small Kitchen d/w and washing machine on the same ring as the bedroom and kitchen sockets (6 doubles in total - which COULD mean, at worst, microwave, kettle, d/w w/m and a telly in the bedroom being on at the same time) or to put the w/m and d/w on a separate one... I'll look at the diversity calcs and have a good think about this - there will certainly be plenty of space on the board for me to split them out if I want/need to.

 

[dave1064]

Not a problem.

I could suggest that you could wire a seperate kitchen ring from the house ring. The largest load demanded in a house is from the kitchen due to these appliances. Where the rest of your house typically consists of a television and appliances like that.

 

[KingKenny]

Not a problem.

I could suggest that you could wire a seperate kitchen ring from the house ring. The largest load demanded in a house is from the kitchen due to these appliances. Where the rest of your house typically consists of a television and appliances like that.

Yep, was thinking this, but 'the rest of the house' downstairs is just 3 more sockets in a bedroom, so was wondering if these could just 'extend' the kitchen ring as they are not much extra load - if any as bedtime and cooking time are different!!. I did want to separate the upstairs and downstairs rings in case of failure on one of these circuits, though. Are you still working in Scotland now?

 

[dave1064]

Yes I work in Scotland.

A downstairs and upstairs ring should be suitable in that case.

Was going to ask if you were changing the consumers unit but I noticed in your previous post you said you were.

 

[richy3333]

I would definitely suggest a rewire. If you are saying these sockets are wired as a radial then the protectice device cannot be rated at more than 20A.

If the sockets and lights are missing earths this must be sorted to meet the standards of current regulations. BS7671. If it is a conduit system then the conduit could be used as a means of earthing. That way a seperate c.p.c is not required.

My advice would be to rewire the radial circuits and create a ring circuit instead. Definitely check out the JBs as you often find all kinds of things in there!

Hope you find this helpful.

Why does he have to create RFC's? What's wrong with radials?

 

[dave1064]

Rings are capable of carrying a much higher current. Would you put all your kitchen appliances on a single 2.5mm cable?

Unless of course you can find some 4mm cable

 

[KingKenny]

I've noticed a few debates about this recently. I have an open mind on it tbh (as well as both 2.5mm and 4mm cable!). I get that the EU way is more biased towards radials, but ring curcuits aren't inherently unsafe are they? Don't both work fine if installed correctly? If so, then what are we really discussing? Saving copper for future generations? A tiny house on Skye ain't gonna make that much difference!

 

[stuartcourt]

after working all over Europe I do not listen to thing they have to say about anything electrical, our system is far better in every way, and quoting Tesco every little really does help the environment and 2.5 at 50p a meter you would only have to save 5 meters a day to save almost £500 a year on one type of cable (hope my maths right)

 

[dave1064]

Its all personal preference really. If you are wiring in twin and earth then 4mm cable is hard to come by.

A Ring works better as if a cable is damaged the sockets are all still connected.

I would always wire a ring circuit instead of a radial.

 

[mselect]

Rewire ASAP is the only conclusion based on your info. Custom made JB's are a recipe for disaster! Don't go there, just get it rewired!

 

[dave1064]

Rewire ASAP is the only conclusion based on your info. Custom made JB's are a recipe for disaster! Don't go there, just get it rewired!

I think we have already came to this conclusion. You are basically repeating what I said earlier