Do you really need insulated tools?

[TheConduitKing]

Are insulated tools necessary if you're not working live? Watching YouTube videos of sparks in America none of them use insulated tools and working on live circuits is apparently an OSHA offense. In the UK the EWR state that:

"
No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor; unless:

(a)it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and

(b)it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and

(c)suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury. "

Considering that VDE tools are basically a form of PPE. shouldn't they be kept unused until you need to use them live? On site I see everyone using VDE Tools basically as normal tools with the insulation damaged meaning that they would be less effective. I know they are to be used for those rare times when you make a mistake and end up hitting a live cable. But then wouldn't every tool in your tool bag need to be insulated then? I don't see how this could be cost effective considering that there is a price premium for insulated tools for most items. (Like grips and stuff)

Thoughts?

 

[SJD]

I've found personally I just come to really dislike using non-VDE screwdrivers, cutters, pliers, etc for working on cables, even though I know they are dead. So I only keep the odd non-VDE large screwdriver for things I wouldn't do with my VDE ones, like propping a door open, or levering up a floorboard etc.

 

[Pete999]

I've found personally I just come to really dislike using non-VDE screwdrivers, cutters, pliers, etc for working on cables, even though I know they are dead. So I only keep the odd non-VDE large screwdriver for things I wouldn't do with my VDE ones, like propping a door open, or levering up a floorboard etc.

lifting floorboards with a screwdriver?

 

[Marvo]

If you're not live working, ie you've tested dead and locked out then VDE tools aren't necessary.

 

[SJD]

lifting floorboards with a screwdriver?

It was an example of where I wouldn't use a nice VDE tool. I have several proper floorboard lifting tools, but just sometimes a screwdriver comes in useful!

 

[TheConduitKing]

If you're not live working, ie you've tested dead and locked out then VDE tools aren't necessary.

Shouldn't VDE tools be supplied by the company if they require you to work live then? Although I'm probably living in fantasy land expecting that. XD

 

[Ian1981]

I don’t understand why any electrician engaged in electrical installation, testing and maintenance would want to have non insulated tools to be honest, the basic hand held tools are just that, basic and deserve to be in a Plumber’s/joiners tool kit at best.

 

[pc1966]

VDE style tools are not necessary for 'dead' working.

However, without them you can't safely do anything 'live' such as give any terminals in a CU a last check for tightness without powering the whole lot down and verifying it is safe. Yes, that might seem a bit dodgy for domestic work but in some cases it is a problem for the business to down everything if it is not absolutely essential if IT and so on is on that board.

Having said that, most plastic handled tools are going to provide a reasonable degree of insulation for 230V levels but you cannot depend on it as they are not designed and tested to do so (for example, they may not be designed to prevent fingers slipping over the handle on to the metal parts, etc). So I would never use metal handled pliers/cutters to cut in to any in-use cable I believe to be dead just in case I made a mistake, but would not always insist on using VDE style tools either for work that should be safe following a safe isolation procedure.

But given the space and weight limitations in your toolbox, it is usually better to have a few tools that can do anything you might need to, rather then doubling them up. For some tools there is not a significant cost difference, e.g. screwdrivers and small cutters, so I would say get VDE ones for that, but stuff like socket set & torque wrench for large terminals are expensive so if that is never going to be live working you might chose not to have insulated ones.

But just be very VERY careful when you go to use them as you will have a really good grip before it makes contact so plenty of shock current would flow...

 

[TheConduitKing]

VDE style tools are not necessary for 'dead' working.

However, without them you can't safely do anything 'live' such as give any terminals in a CU a last check for tightness without powering the whole lot down and verifying it is safe. Yes, that might seem a bit dodgy for domestic work but in some cases it is a problem for the business to down everything if it is not absolutely essential if IT and so on is on that board.

Having said that, most plastic handled tools are going to provide a reasonable degree of insulation for 230V levels but you cannot depend on it as they are not designed and tested to do so (for example, they may not be designed to prevent fingers slipping over the handle on to the metal parts, etc). So I would never use metal handled pliers/cutters to cut in to any in-use cable I believe to be dead just in case I made a mistake, but would not always insist on using VDE style tools either for work that should be safe following a safe isolation procedure.

But given the space and weight limitations in your toolbox, it is usually better to have a few tools that can do anything you might need to, rather then doubling them up. For some tools there is not a significant cost difference, e.g. screwdrivers and small cutters, so I would say get VDE ones for that, but stuff like socket set & torque wrench for large terminals are expensive so if that is never going to be live working you might chose not to have insulated ones.

But just be very VERY careful when you go to use them as you will have a really good grip before it makes contact so plenty of shock current would flow...

Ah, okay. That makes sense then.

 

[nicebutdim]

Wonder what percentage of sparks have cut through a live cable that they 'knew for certain' was dead?

 

[pc1966]

Wonder what percentage of sparks have cut through a live cable that they 'knew for certain' was dead?

I suspect it is far more common than we would like to think!

If you are cutting a cable where you can see the end and have just proving it dead, probably not. But if you have isolated a circuit and proven it dead in order to cut in to add something half-way along, then you can't be so sure!

That is possibly one of the few cases with a non-contact indicator might help to show the cable is not as dead as expected, but as they can't be trusted it would definitely be a case of insulated cutters and keeping one's face well back just in case.

Of course, if it is a high current conductor like a sub-main then you really ought to have some arc-flash PPE in use; at the very least some heat resistant leather gloves and a face mask.

 

[pc1966]

If doing PPE properly of course you get arc-flash rated clothing and should ware that as well as gloves & face-mask.

But even you are not dealing with such a high energy risk it is a good idea not to wear synthetic material such as nylon or polyester for jumpers & shirts, etc, normally. Cotton or wool is better, it is still not heat/flame proof, but at least won't melt and stick to your skin making such an incident a whole lot worse than it could have been.

 

[telectrix]

my lad once cut through a "disused" shower cable, ruined a pair of CK cutters. plumber had told him it was dead/disconnected.

Isaid to my lad. lesson 1.......never trust a wet-pants.

 

[Rockingit]

It's like this...... you don't need to be wearing a seatbelt in a car. Until the accident happens.

 

[7029 dave]

Yes you do need them, would never use anything else, anyway I love my boddingtons.

 

[telectrix]

Yes you do need them, would never use anything else, anyway I love my boddingtons.

i prefer Marstons.

 

[Pete999]

i prefer Marstons.

I

 

[Pete999]

I prefer "Cotes Du Rhone" cus I used to be posh

 

[7029 dave]

i prefer Marstons.

Is it a good beer Tel.

 

[7029 dave]

I prefer "Cotes Du Rhone" cus I used to be posh

Lol not a bad wine Pete

 

[Pete999]

Lol not a bad wine Pete

very nice thanks no too expensive

 

[Dustydazzler]

2 or 3 pairs of blown up side cutters say yes insulated tools have their place in site

 

[telectrix]

Lol not a bad wine Pete

this is posh . 1 bottle sold for $500,000 in 1992:

mind you that was a charity auction with american (stupid) punters. probably pick one up for $100,000.

 

[telectrix]

all missed the point. we use VDE tools so we look better more professional than the wet pants.

 

[littlespark]

That is exactly right @telectrix
It gives the impression of professionalism to customers and lesser trades.

 

[D Skelton]

I'll always remember one of the first jobs I was left alone to do when I was still an apprentice. Needed to rip out the kitchen electrics so started by knocking off the whole place at the main switch (the flat was empty). Live dead live. Good to go...

First socket I come to I'm unscrewing the terminals and out pop the cables... BANG!

Called the gaffer (he was in one of the other flats), he was livid, stupid blimmin' apprentice can't even turn off the sockets! He comes over to sort my mess out.

Turns out all the kitchen sockets were fed from the flat downstairs. My VDE screwdriver most likely saved my life.

 

[DPG]

I'll always remember one of the first jobs I was left alone to do when I was still an apprentice. Needed to rip out the kitchen electrics so started by knocking off the whole place at the main switch (the flat was empty). Live dead live. Good to go...

First socket I come to I'm unscrewing the terminals and out pop the cables... BANG!

Called the gaffer (he was in one of the other flats), he was livid, stupid blimmin' apprentice can't even turn off the sockets! He comes over to sort my mess out.

Turns out all the kitchen sockets were fed from the flat downstairs. My VDE screwdriver most likely saved my life.

Shows the importance of performing safe isolation first.

 

[D Skelton]

Shows the importance of performing safe isolation first.

I did (at least I though I had at the time), at the board.

But yeah, you're right.

 

[David Prosser]

I did (at least I though I had at the time), at the board.

But yeah, you're right.

Great lesson there, proving dead at the board is not proving dead and identifying the isolation correctly at the specific point of work. Feed from another DB (even whilst being labelled otherwise) is reasonably uncommon in domestic work but it is an all too common problem in commercial or industrial work.

In theory we shouldn't need insulated tools 99% of the time but we know we like to have for the just in case.

 

[Sparkingmad]

Reminds me of a commercial strip out and renovation on a club. Stripping out the lights my mate said I’ve killed the lights which I knew were on when we turned up
And were now off. Still used my voltage meter but school boy error or complacency on my part tested live to earth only dead. Cut the cable Big Bang then silence! All the power went off, then a receptionist comes in and says all the computers have gone off and the lights. I know that they have their own 3 phase board which came off a different area to ours. Took another look at my brand new knipex cutters which were totally blown to pieces. Long story short the dimmer packs somehow were switching but not the outgoing neutrals and these were in fact 230v. I took out the main incoming 200A supply and know if I wasn’t using VDE tools it would have been a different outcome and I wouldn’t be alive to tell today. So now it’s test live to earth, live to neutral and neutral to earth before doing anything

 

[Zerax]

For me... part of having VDE tools is that it's easier to tell others which bag tools go into... if they're insulated, they go in that bag... if not, they go in the other bag.

 

[JBW175]

i'm a fan of insulated tools for all occasions, watched one of my best mates put a none insulated screwdriver through a hole of a fuse carrier in a 3P DB.

don't know why he did it and nor does he, he was only meant to be pulling the fuses to isolate the fire pumps, he just had a moment of madness.

thankfully he's never done anything as bone since then; and the look of shear terror he had on his face after he received a belt has always served as a stark reminder of why we take electrical safety seriously...

over 20 years later we still give him sh@t about it.

 

[ElectroChem]

We use insulated tools for the same reason we prove dead after isolation.
Because "I thought it wasn't live" makes a shitty tombstone.

 

[Pete999]

i'm a fan of insulated tools for all occasions, watched one of my best mates put a none insulated screwdriver through a hole of a fuse carrier in a 3P DB.

don't know why he did it and nor does he, he was only meant to be pulling the fuses to isolate the fire pumps, he just had a moment of madness.

thankfully he's never done anything as bone since then; and the look of shear terror he had on his face after he received a belt has always served as a stark reminder of why we take electrical safety seriously...

over 20 years later we still give him sh@t about it.

If you didn't have insulated tools there would be nothing for Tool Tarts to collect.

 

[littlespark]

Disclaimer. The following is written very tongue in cheek. Don’t follow this advice!


Life hack!

if you need an insulated screwdriver.... you know, when you really really can’t be bothered to turn off the power.... (Fusebox is in the cupboard, under the stair. Need to shift all that stuff!)
Just get any normal screwdriver, and a roll of insulating tape!

 

[pc1966]

We use insulated tools for the same reason we prove dead after isolation.
Because "I thought it wasn't live" makes a shitty tombstone.

Sadly it is not just a joke:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/302726406188616489/

You have to admire the honesty there...

 

[Zenaku]

Insulated tools are needed for electronics weak to static discharge