EICR Certs - NICEIC registration

[landlord]

Hi,
Private landlord here.
Like seemingly a lot of people. I thought electricians had to be registered with NICEIC or NAPIT in order to carry out an EICR test on a property. Except actually I've just learned they dont actually have to be. (thats correct right?).

However, if they then say the property is not up to standard and needs some bits of work doing on the electrics in order to get the cert, do they then have to be registered with one of the bodies in order to carry out the work?

If they don't have to be registered with any of these bodies, I have read something about being a "competent person". What does this mean, and is there any way I can check their status / check they have passed whatever qualifications they need to have done?
Thank

 

[Deleted account]

You are correct. You do not have to be registered to do EICRs.

as for doing the remedial works to sort any issues. You also don’t have to be registered.

However, if the remedial s are notifiable works then the Sparkie will have to get the local building control involved in order for them to sign it off. This costs lots of money So is not financially viable.

Another way is to get third party notification. Basically get another registered spa4kie to sign of your works. Not many sparkies are willing to do this and if they do they will charge alot.

If the remedials are not notifiable then an unregistered sparkie is fine.

notifiable works are as follows.

new circuit installed.
new consumer unit fitted
addition or alteration in a special location like a room containing a bath or shower Or external outdoor work.

non notifiable works are as follows.

addition or alteration to an existing circuit unless it’s in a special location.

there is a bit more to it but that’s the basics.

 

[landlord]

Many thanks for this. Starting to make sense.
Would replacing the Distribution board, and RCBO's + MCB count as notifiable?

 

[Deleted account]

Many thanks for this. Starting to make sense.
Would replacing the Distribution board, and RCBO's + MCB count as notifiable?

replacing a distribution board Is notifiable.

swapping RCBOs and Mcb’s in an existing board is not notifyable.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Registration with one of the competent persons schemes is not compulsory to carry out EICRs for domestic rentals. For remedial work, it depends.

Some types of electrical work in dwellings are notifiable to local building control, in the same way as, for example, building an extension to a house would be. There are different ways to notify the work, but an electrician registered with a competent person scheme can notify the work him/her self through the scheme provider with minimal fuss or expense.

Types of work that would need notifying are:

Replacement of a consumer unit.
A new circuit.
Work in close proximity to a shower or bath.

All other types of work are not notifiable.

Competence is a difficult one to prove. There is a period inspection and testing qualification which the government guidance for landlords recommends an inspector should have. However it is worth mentioning that it is just a 5 day course, and doesn't on its own prove competence. Knowledge and experience of the sort of systems being inspected are both essential to carry out EICRs, and these things cannot be taught in the classroom.

Some links for you:

Guide for landlords: electrical safety standards in the private rented sector

www.gov.uk

The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations impose duties on private landlords of residential premises in England in respect of electrical safety standards. The duties do not apply to landlords of social housing. The Regulations require local housing authorities to enforce the duties, and include a power to arrange...

www.legislation.gov.uk

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf

 

[timhoward]

This thread may be worth a read too:
(It's from the sparks perspective)

Do i need to be under NAPIT / NIC to sign off EICR? > on Free Electrical Advice - Electricians Forums

Find Do i need to be under NAPIT / NIC to sign off EICR? Advice and Help. How-to Do i need to be under NAPIT / NIC to sign off EICR? in the Electrical Testing & PAT Testing Forum advice boards on Electricians Forums. Do i need to be under NAPIT / NIC to sign off EICR? on ElectriciansForums.net...

www.electriciansforums.net

 

[landlord]

This is all super helpful thank you everybody. I think I know everything I need to know now. Except just one more thing while I'm at it:

In the linked thread from the electricians point of view, somebody says this:

"Building control notification is another matter entirely. It's technically the responsibility of the person ordering the work to notify Part P notifiable works, before the work even commences, and pay the local authority £100s for the service.
However, it's far cheaper and more convenient for the householder to use an electrician who is registered with one of the schemes that allow the registered user to notify building control through the scheme provider (NICEIC etc.), as it only costs £2 or £3 per notification.

It's against the law to not notify work that should be notified, but it's the householder's responsibility to do so."


So in 1 paragraph they say its the person doing the works responsibility to notify, but in the next they say its the householders responsibility. That seems contradictory?

Thanks

 

[loz2754]

This is all super helpful thank you everybody. I think I know everything I need to know now. Except just one more thing while I'm at it:

In the linked thread from the electricians point of view, somebody says this:

"Building control notification is another matter entirely. It's technically the responsibility of the person ordering the work to notify Part P notifiable works, before the work even commences, and pay the local authority £100s for the service.
However, it's far cheaper and more convenient for the householder to use an electrician who is registered with one of the schemes that allow the registered user to notify building control through the scheme provider (NICEIC etc.), as it only costs £2 or £3 per notification.

It's against the law to not notify work that should be notified, but it's the householder's responsibility to do so."


So in 1 paragraph they say its the person doing the works responsibility to notify, but in the next they say its the householders responsibility. That seems contradictory?

Thanks

Hi. It's me you quoted.
Sorry for the confusion. You'll notice I did not say the person doing the work, but the person ordering the work to be done. The person ordering the works can also be the householder, if they own the property they live in.
In the case of rented accommodation, it would be the landlord ordering the works, so the landlord would need to do the notifying.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It's technically the responsibility of the person ordering the work to notify Part P notifiable works...

...not the person doing the work.

Edit: Loz beat me to it

 

[landlord]

Hi. It's me you quoted.
Sorry for the confusion. You'll notice I did not say the person doing the work, but the person ordering the work to be done. The person ordering the works can also be the householder, if they own the property they live in.
In the case of rented accommodation, it would be the landlord ordering the works, so the landlord would need to do the notifying.

Ah ok thanks. So if they have inspected the property, decided this stuff needs doing, and are NOT themselves registered, they should also be saying to me that as part of the works I or the letting agent would need to be notifiying the council?

basically, as you may have figured out: Letting agent has sent an electrician in to do the EICR cert, they've come back saying to pass it, the following work needs doing, with a hefty bill for works, which has been forwarded to me from the agent. I have done some snooping and cannot find this trader listed on any of NAPIT/NIC/competent trader lists, and the whole thing smells fishy.

 

[SJD]

If there is notifiable work to be done (assuming it is actually needed) then you want someone registered to do the work and take care of notifying. Council Building Control depts often don't want to be bothered with having to inspect work themselves, and charge hefty fees (£100's) to discourage it - compared to a few £ when done via NICEIC etc.

 

[loz2754]

Ah ok thanks. So if they have inspected the property, decided this stuff needs doing, and are NOT themselves registered, they should also be saying to me that as part of the works I or the letting agent would need to be notifiying the council?

basically, as you may have figured out: Letting agent has sent an electrician in to do the EICR cert, they've come back saying to pass it, the following work needs doing, with a hefty bill for works, which has been forwarded to me from the agent. I have done some snooping and cannot find this trader listed on any of NAPIT/NIC/competent trader lists, and the whole thing smells fishy.

Maybe discuss with the agent why they are using a non registered tradesperson? There may be some good reason, if the agent has a history with them and trusts their judgement.
Trust and competency are difficult to quantify, hence the reason for the guidance for landlords to use one of the Competent Person Schemes when looking for an EICR.

 

[timhoward]

basically, as you may have figured out: Letting agent has sent an electrician in to do the EICR cert, they've come back saying to pass it, the following work needs doing, with a hefty bill for works, which has been forwarded to me from the agent.

Very common.
You aren't obliged to use the original electrician to have remedial work carried out.
Ask for the full EICR report (not just their standard covering letter telling you you need an 18th Edition Consumer unit with SPD protection and it will cost 2 grand).
Remove any personal details from the report, and post it up here. We'll do our best to help.

 

[Deleted account]

I am no longer registered as I just recently gave up the tools. I would however happily carry out an EICR and do the remedials for a bit extra dosh. This is not a problem as I am electrically skilled and have relevant experience And the remedials are not notifiable.

 

[pc1966]

EICR are often a point of contention here, not because most are wrong, but just a lot are being done just now and some are poorly done, or occasionally near-fraudulent. However, some are simply pointing out serious problems that are not apparent to the owner. As already suggested, folks here will usually give an honest appraisal of the (personal info redacted) report especially if it (or yourself) can furnish some photos of the items mentioned.

@Pretty Mouth has posted a link to the Best Practice Guide #4 which has a good overview of the sorts of problems that can be seen and guidance on how to rate the risk, though ultimately that is a judgement call on the electrician doing the inspection.

Some of BPG#4 is obvious and easy to follow, other points only make sense to an electrician or similar. As a landlord it is well worth looking over as it gives you a good overview of what might be an issue on your properties, even if not all of the aspects are apparent to a casual observer.

 

[landlord]

Thanks hugely for all the info from everyone. I have a call with the letting agent tomorrow to discuss, but wanted to go in with as much knowledge as possible, I certainly now feel much better placed. There are a few other delicate political hurdles to overcome, which I wont detail on here, so I have to tread lightly, but thats why I feel much more confident now I know the exact state of play.

I have not seen the full report, just the quote for works, which is admittedly fairly detailed. I suppose its possible the electrician is registered, and hasnt put their NIC / NAPIT number on the quote. But given that they have put their company name, companies house number, address, and the electricians name - all of which are showing a blank on searches it doesnt look great.

My hope is the agent will just agree to start from scratch with a new (registered) electrician, but I need to see what is said tomorrow. If it doesnt get quickly resolved, I will see if I can get hold of the full report to ask for further advice.

 

[pc1966]

If it doesnt get quickly resolved, I will see if I can get hold of the full report to ask for further advice.

I would say your starting point for any decision should always be the full report.

Only then can you (or any one advising you) see why certain things are being recommended as corrective action. If they are reluctant to provide it I would be very concerned about the honesty/integrity.

It is not about nit-picking (as most reports will have something that is not quite 100%), really about seeing the key issues and judgment for any major work. Quite possibly something moderately expensive like a new CU (consumer unit = distrabution board = fuse box) really is the best option.

 

[Markyd]

Maybe discuss with the agent why they are using a non registered tradesperson? There may be some good reason, if the agent has a history with them and trusts their judgement.
Trust and competency are difficult to quantify, hence the reason for the guidance for landlords to use one of the Competent Person Schemes when looking for an EICR.

Good reason is the Agent is getting a backhander for every EICR the sparks is doing

 

[Deleted account]

Good reason is the Agent is getting a backhander for every EICR the sparks is doing

Cynical.

 

[Deleted account]

My parents got an EICR done for a rental they have. I live 400 miles away so was not able to do it myself.

the report was ok ish, but I totally disagreed with most of the coding. Too many C2s.
despite this I agreed that all the C2s whether correct or not should be rectified. The quote for rectification was reasonable so dispite me not agreeing I told my parents to go ahead and get the work done.

it is a rental and you are responsible for the safety of your tennants. Just get it done.

I code correctly even if I do not agree with what code they should be. I follow guidance and regs, the company that did my parents did not follow guidance and regs so coded what they though it should be.
I have to admit that I also think the code they gave should be what they stated even if they are nor following guidance and regs.

my personal opinion is lighting without rcd protection should be C2, but under current guidance and regs it is C3.

 

[pc1966]

my personal opinion is lighting without rcd protection should be C2, but under current guidance and regs it is C3.

I would say the BPG#4 guidance seems quite good. but it always comes down to a judgment call on the risks involved.

So I would say C3 for no RCD on indoor lights generally (assuming sound CPC, etc) as you rarely handle the related equipment (less so today with LED lamps lasting an order of magnitude longer than filament lamps). Even metal switch plates, the obvious case, are not something you can grasp under shock conditions and it still needs a double fault to present such a risk (CPC open then fault to metalwork).

But you can easily find examples such as outdoor lights and light switches where the presence of water increases the risk of shock, or low height 'artistic' lighting metalwork that is easily grasped close to other conductive objects, etc, that change the risk greatly and then C2 is reasonable.

 

[brianmoooore]

Bear in mind that registration with a scheme, such as NAPIT or NICEIC is absolutely no guarantee of competency.

 

[Markyd]

Bear in mind that registration with a scheme, such as NAPIT or NICEIC is absolutely no guarantee of competency.

These according to the NICEIC registered sparky who done the Eicr are 60898 type B MCB's And the RCD is 30ma and has a trip time of 28ms x1 and 19ms x5

 

[Markyd]

These according to the NICEIC registered sparky who done the Eicr are 60898 type B MCB's And the RCD is 30ma and has a trip time of 28ms x1 and 19ms x5View attachment 90336

And yes i have tried to report him but do you think the NICEIC are at all bothered...not a bit

 

[baldelectrician]

Hi,
Private landlord here.
Like seemingly a lot of people. I thought electricians had to be registered with NICEIC or NAPIT in order to carry out an EICR test on a property. Except actually I've just learned they dont actually have to be. (thats correct right?).

However, if they then say the property is not up to standard and needs some bits of work doing on the electrics in order to get the cert, do they then have to be registered with one of the bodies in order to carry out the work?

If they don't have to be registered with any of these bodies, I have read something about being a "competent person". What does this mean, and is there any way I can check their status / check they have passed whatever qualifications they need to have done?
Thank

I would suggest a registered electrical contractor.

If your agent are not using a company from the competent person scheme you have almost no come back (not that you have tons on an EICR)

This sounds like the standard agent- calls up 10 sparks and asks how much, does not care about how good or safe.

Remember the agent are meant to be acting in your interest.

Ask them how they have checked the qualifications, insurance etc of the contractor they use?

To pin it down- I would suggest a NICIEC / ECA full scope electrical contractor who is time served (and not just short course trained), preferably a small / family firm who has apprentices (the contractors with apprentices are showing commitment to future training)

 

[Markyd]

I would suggest a registered electrical contractor.

If your agent are not using a company from the competent person scheme you have almost no come back (not that you have tons on an EICR)

This sounds like the standard agent- calls up 10 sparks and asks how much, does not care about how good or safe.

Remember the agent are meant to be acting in your interest.

Ask them how they have checked the qualifications, insurance etc of the contractor they use?

To pin it down- I would suggest a NICIEC / ECA full scope electrical contractor who is time served (and not just short course trained), preferably a small / family firm who has apprentices (the contractors with apprentices are showing commitment to future training)

And i wouldnt recommend a NICEIC registered electrician after what i saw and the fact they are not interested in following it up

 

[brianmoooore]

And i wouldnt recommend a NICEIC registered electrician after what i saw and the fact they are not interested in following it up

And if you go for a NAPIT one, you'll be up against their Codebreakers book and its deviations from BPG4.

 

[Grant1987]

And if you go for a NAPIT one, you'll be up against their Codebreakers book and its deviations from BPG4.

It seems to me that the landlord is looking to go against the electrician who has recommended the upgrades on his property and come on here to give himself some clout based on our replies. It’s a fine line and I’ll always back my fellow sparks unless the work is non compliant to our blue bible. I don’t like homeowners seeking to use our info to go against a fellow spark and only giving half the story so my advice is to be aware of the person asking the questions

 

[pc1966]

It seems to me that the landlord is looking to go against the electrician who has recommended the upgrades on his property and come on here to give himself some clout based on our replies. It’s a fine line and I’ll always back my fellow sparks unless the work is non compliant to our blue bible. I don’t like homeowners seeking to use our info to go against a fellow spark and only giving half the story so my advice is to be aware of the person asking the questions

That is not how I read it.

Yes, he has been told that work needs done, but the first question from the OP was really about membership of a competent persons scheme being a requirement, as the contractor used by their agent did not seem to be registered. To me that is simple and perfectly valid point to ask, though the answer is complicated and the thread drifted off in to the likes of NAPIT versus BPG#4 guidance, etc.

Also another aspect of this is the OP apparently has not been given the EICR report, but simply told the work is needed. To me that is unacceptable (as well as raising a bit of suspicion when coupled with the apparently non-registered contractor). If your agent has commissioned an EICR you should get the full report as well as any recommendation/costings for corrective work.

Unless we see this EICR we have no idea. As I have mentioned in previous posts it could well be that the EICR is reasonable and all of the work proposed is required, but without seeing the report and maybe some photos of the points raised nobody can say one way or another.

 

[UNG]

And yes i have tried to report him but do you think the NICEIC are at all bothered...not a bit

Well if the NICEIC are not interested elevate it to UKAS and their complaints procedure Complaints, Feedback and Appeals - UKAS - https://www.ukas.com/customer-area/complaints-feedback-and-appeals/

It seems to me that the landlord is looking to go against the electrician who has recommended the upgrades on his property and come on here to give himself some clout based on our replies. It’s a fine line and I’ll always back my fellow sparks unless the work is non compliant to our blue bible. I don’t like homeowners seeking to use our info to go against a fellow spark and only giving half the story so my advice is to be aware of the person asking the questio

The OP only appeared to be questioning the registration status of an electrician to be able carry out EICR's / remedial works

 

[Grant1987]

That is not how I read it.

Yes, he has been told that work needs done, but the first question from the OP was really about membership of a competent persons scheme being a requirement, as the contractor used by their agent did not seem to be registered. To me that is simple and perfectly valid point to ask, though the answer is complicated and the thread drifted off in to the likes of NAPIT versus BPG#4 guidance, etc.

Also another aspect of this is the OP apparently has not been given the EICR report, but simply told the work is needed. To me that is unacceptable (as well as raising a bit of suspicion when coupled with the apparently non-registered contractor). If your agent has commissioned an EICR you should get the full report as well as any recommendation/costings for corrective work.

Unless we see this EICR we have no idea. As I have mentioned in previous posts it could well be that the EICR is reasonable and all of the work proposed is required, but without seeing the report and maybe some photos of the points raised nobody can say one way or another.

Then why was the electrical contractor asked to carry out the report in the first place, the agent as the landlord has put it should know better and can’t now complain because remedial work has been advised surely the agent has a good understanding of how the system works my hunch is a landlord looking for a way out and hoping to get the property satisfactory without paying out £££

 

[timhoward]

And if you go for a NAPIT one, you'll be up against their Codebreakers book and its deviations from BPG4.

I hear you, but some of us think for ourselves! IMHO Code breakers was mainly about Napit trying to make money, not Napit trying to help their members.
Their own training team issues BPG4 to students and advises against reading CB!

 

[UNG]

I hear you, but some of us think for ourselves! IMHO Code breakers was mainly about Napit trying to make money, not Napit trying to help their members.
Their own training team issues BPG4 to students and advises against reading CB!

I was told by one of the NAPIT guys at Elex Coventry that codebreakers was published so that the coding of issues would be consistant across the industry, he didn't appreciate me laughing