EPC on a church - exempt?

[saint]

We have an install on a church coming up. As i understand it churches are exempt from EPC. i.e. they will get the top/ standard generation tariff without an EPC.
Where can i direct the customer for confirmation?

Thanks
Matt

 

[Earthstore]

Is the Church heated or cooled using a form of energy (conditioned I think is the phrase they use), if so i believe it needs an EPC to qualify for the higher rate of FIT, Good luck on that getting a Church to band D...

 

[Worcester]

Churches are not exempt for the purposes of the Feed-in Tariff even though they are normally exempt from EPC's the rules are :

"2.90. A relevant building must also be a building in respect of which an EPC can be issued. If an EPC cannot be issued then the building is not a relevant building and the energy efficiency requirement does not apply. Under the EPB Regulations some properties are exempt from the requirement for an EPC; however if a building can be assessed and receive an EPC then the energy efficiency requirement will apply under the FIT legislation (irrespective of whether an EPB exemption applies or not)."

So although for a normal EPC a church is considered to be 'not a relevant building' the point of this particular clause is that it is possible to assess it.

So, in effect you MUST have an EPC of D or greater for the church , or else accept the lower tariff.

Some modern places of worship of course can meet this criteria.

 

[jason121]

I installed on a church this year and had a EPC done and managed a D due to no heating in the building .To be safe, I asked EON for there advice and they also recommended a EPC, they also told me that many an installer has fell foul to this clause and received the lower rate of FITS. I would recommend an EPC

 

[saint]

Thanks for your replies. Worcester, where are you getting this info from (2.90?) thanks.

Churches are not exempt for the purposes of the Feed-in Tariff even though they are normally exempt from EPC's the rules are :

"2.90. A relevant building must also be a building in respect of which an EPC can be issued. If an EPC cannot be issued then the building is not a relevant building and the energy efficiency requirement does not apply. Under the EPB Regulations some properties are exempt from the requirement for an EPC; however if a building can be assessed and receive an EPC then the energy efficiency requirement will apply under the FIT legislation (irrespective of whether an EPB exemption applies or not)."

So although for a normal EPC a church is considered to be 'not a relevant building' the point of this particular clause is that it is possible to assess it.

So, in effect you MUST have an EPC of D or greater for the church , or else accept the lower tariff.

Some modern places of worship of course can meet this criteria.

 

[Worcester]

The Bible ( ) of eligibility: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...-renewable-installations-version-5-april-2013

 

[TedM]

The latest version 5.2 is here: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...d-electricity-suppliers-version-5.2-july-2013

 

[Worcester]

Thanks TedM, - how the heck did you find that!!
I thought I knew where most of the documents were (the one I linked to was on the Roo-Fit page!) -

Aha just found it - were are now 'licensed electricity suppliers" instead of 'Generators' kind of them to let us know

 

[saint]

Thanks for all the replies.

I have been looking into this and it seems its all about 'relevant building'. i.e. a building where energy is used to condition the indoor climate. As mentioned above. A building must be relevant for an EPC to be required. A relevant building must also be a building on which an EPC can be issued. If an EPC cannot be issued then building is not a relevant building and the energy efficiency requirement does not apply.

Our EPC assessor has confirmed that places of worship are exempt because the software used is not designed to cope with these sorts of buildings. i assume all assessors use the same software.

British Gas FIT team have confirmed in writing that a church is exempt.

 

[Gavin A]

Thanks for all the replies.

I have been looking into this and it seems its all about 'relevant building'. i.e. a building where energy is used to condition the indoor climate. As mentioned above. A building must be relevant for an EPC to be required. A relevant building must also be a building on which an EPC can be issued. If an EPC cannot be issued then building is not a relevant building and the energy efficiency requirement does not apply.

Our EPC assessor has confirmed that places of worship are exempt because the software used is not designed to cope with these sorts of buildings. i assume all assessors use the same software.

British Gas FIT team have confirmed in writing that a church is exempt.

all of which is wrong, unless the guidelines have changed recently.

 

[saint]

So you want to elaborate?

 

[Gavin A]

So you want to elaborate?

ok, so Ofgem have updated the guidance in July. This is the relevant section.

3.80. A ”relevant building” is defined in the SLCs29 and must be a roofed construction which has walls, and for which energy is used to condition the indoor climate.
Examples of energy being used to condition the indoor climate include heating and
cooling systems. If any aspect of this definition does not apply to a building to which
the PV installation is wired to provide electricity to then the energy efficiency
requirement does not apply.


3.81. A “relevant building” must also be a building in respect of which an EPC can be
issued. If an EPC cannot be issued then the building is not a relevant building and the
energy efficiency requirement does not apply. Under the Energy Performance of
Buildings (EPB) Regulations some properties are exempt from the requirement for an
EPC; however if a building can be assessed and receive an EPC then the energy
efficiency requirement will apply under FIT legislation (irrespective of whether an EPB
exemption applies or not).


3.82. It is the responsibility of the FIT Generator to prove that an EPC cannot be
obtained for any building that the PV is wired to provide electricity to. One option to
demonstrate this would be for the FIT Generator to provide a document from an EPC
assessor which confirms that it was not possible to obtain an EPC on the building/s
and to clearly state the reasons why.

Which unfortunately is clear as mud really, and puts the onus on the FIT supplier to assess the validity of the EPC assessor's statement that the EPC software isn't actually capable of assessing a church.

I know the EPC software struggles with churches, but I also know that it is possible to get an EPC for them (as we have had 1 done), so all it would take is for the FIT supplier to realise that they've had EPC's in from other churches from other EPC assessors and decide not to accept that statement, and your client will find themselves on the lowest FIT rate.

This section would apply if the FIT supplier didn't accept the EPC assessor's letter.

3.58. Where evidence has not been received by the FIT Licensee to verify that an EPC of level D or above has been achieved at or before the Eligibility Date of the
installation, the lower tariff will apply to the FIT installation, without exception

Which all makes it seem pretty risky to me to rely on a letter from an EPC assessor... I'd hope that his PI insurance was substantial enough to cover the potential liability, as it could all get very messy if BG decide to change their minds.

This whole situation is a real mess, and tbh I can't see it getting better until it gets taken to judicial review, which will only happen when a big enough install get's dropped to the lower rate to justify spending £10-15k on the legal costs.

 

[Gavin A]

If BG have accepted your EPC assessor's statement though, then you probably would have covered yourself in the event that BG changed their minds, but I'm pretty sure that there's no blanket exception for churches, so I'd not see this as setting a precedent... ie if you send the same letter in to a different company, the chances are you'd get a different answer.

 

[saint]

I agreed there is no blanket exception to churches because it all depends on the structure of the building as to whether its relevant. Some churches i sure are more like 'standard houses' (i'm guessing - i try to avoid them all tbh). We actually have two churches who want us to install PV now. i'm going to find out the second fit suppliers commends regarding exemption.

From reading section 3.82 of Ofgems version 5.2.....

3.82. It is the responsibility of the FIT Generator to prove that an EPC cannot be obtained for any building that the PV is wired to provide electricity to. One option to demonstrate this would be for the FIT Generator to provide a document from an EPC assessor which confirms that it was not possible to obtain an EPC on the building/s and to clearly state the reasons why.

.... I understand it as the fact that our EPC assessor will write a letter of exemption would be enough for FIT supplier to agree to the exemption. Seeing as every building must be assessed for its own 'relevance' and there is no blanket exemption on churches. Therefore they couldn't challenge it even if they had received an EPC on an other church.

I agree its risky and not at all clear.

 

[Gavin A]

make sure your EPC assessor is a commercial EPC assessor.

Our EPC assessor has confirmed that places of worship are exempt because the software used is not designed to cope with these sorts of buildings.

I'd really be surprised if this statement was sufficient, it looks more like he's saying that because of the standard exemption for churches the building should be exempt - ie he's applying a blanket exemption to churches because of flaws in the software.

He's almost certainly right that an EPC isn't appropriate due to the pattern of usage within the building amongst other factors, but this isn't necessarily how OFgem would view it - it wasn't when we last asked that question anyway.

 

[saint]

He is certainly a commercial EPC assessor and has done a fair few for us now and i'm very confident in his abilities but I agree this may well be the case.....

<it looks more like he's saying that because of the standard exemption for churches the building should be exempt - ie he's applying a blanket exemption to churches because of flaws in the software.>

Thanks for your input and just as a side issue. There is a building of more standard construction about 20m from the church and fed from the church. i.e. service head and meter in the church. Supply from here to DB2 in the other building. Could / should he carry out an EPC on this building?

 

[BruceB]

You may just have stumbled upon the way out. Para 3.97 of the guidance, for which TedM provided a link above, states that where the PV installation is connected to multiple relevant buildings then only one of them needs to have an EPC level D. So if this other building has heating there is a good chance that taking account of the PV it will achieve level D.

 

[saint]

Its interesting how the different FIT providers look at this.

One is asking simply for a letter on headed paper etc stating the building is a place of worship and is therefore exempt. The guy in the FIT team said they had accepted several letters of exemption for places of worship and those installations were all receiving the standard generation tariff.

The second is saying the letter of exemption must meet all the following criteria.

In order to be exempt from the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) requirement (under FITs), the evidence supplied must include the following key points,

• The installation address cannot physically have an EPC
• It is a “non relevant” building
• here is no internal conditioning, ie. The internal climate is not controlled.
• It is not wired or attached to any other relevant building.
  

If the above is not covered in the evidence provided, we would be unable to accept this in the place of an EPC, therefore the customer would only qualify to recieve the lower tariff price without an EPC or an exemption EPC letter.

Its crazy that they are not all playing by the same rules.

 

[Ian-LS]

another reason why ofgem are a waste of space

 

[TedM]

And why there will be more problems down the road when an audit uncovers those 'place of worship' letters that are not acceptable to OFGEM.