General Pricing / Help required

[jo4nny8]

Hi All

Im looking for a little bit of general guidance with regards to prices i should be paying for works.

Without giving to much detail, I run a bathroom and kitchen company and have used my current electrician for about 4 years on and off. This year hes had a lot of work off me (in excess of £5k i would think)

Im just slightly concerned by the (what i think) high prices im starting to be charge for work and wanted a little idea if you guys think its about right or way over the top.

If i give a few examples can you guys give me a rough idea of what you think is a reasonable price range??

Lets assume everything within the existing installation meets current regs, bs7671 etc (any remedial work required is priced by him and charged to the customer)

Bathroom.

Generally our bathrooms consist of:

Remove pendant light / similar light in centre of room,
Install 3 / 4 chrome downlights (i supply)
Install either 1 x shower light or 1 x wall mounted extractor (depending on which depends on amount of downlights)

So i supply lights and extractor
He supplies cable, spurs, backboxes, pull chord or light switch depending on what is currently installed - general consumables really

Any ideas on a rough guide price??

Kitchens.

Slightly more involved really but i will give a general perception.

Change 5 x double sockets (straight swop)
Install feed for chimney style extractor
Install feed for oven, and hob (13a double plug)
Install feed for dishwasher
Install feed for washing machine
Install feed for tumble drier.

With regards to the above they are normally there and so it is merely extending cables and moving sockets into cupboards etc (were not talking about installing new rings mains etc)

Install 6 x under counter lights (i supply and install these he does electrical connection as the lights are 12v with a transformer pre fitted etc)

He supplies cables etc and sockets.

Any idea of a rough sort of price??

Can people also advise on roughly what percentage of installations they go to that require remedial work to bring up to current standards? For some reason i am finding every single job we does has to have some sort of rememdial work - ranging from bonding on gas and water being increased from 4-6mm -10mm, to full consumer unit changes as theyre still using rewirable fuses etc)

Now whilst im reasonally technical, when you start talking about technical things i get lost and i dont want to be either getting screwed, but also dont want my customers thinking were ripping them off if work is being done that doesnt need to be.

Can anyone help me out?

 

[telectrix]

as a rough guide, i'd say around £200 + materials for bathroom. £300 - £400 + materials for kitchen

 

[ruston]

It's not just the job's that cost the money , it's getting there , paying for parking, scheme fees, insurance , etc. Why do you think his prices have gone up in comparison to earlier years , has he offered no explanation. I would tend to ask him for one as it is difficult for any one to give a ballpark figure without knowing the logistics of each job.

 

[plugsandsparks]

It also depends how many visits he has to make. Cannot you figure out how many hours and visits he has made for each job, then work backwards, cable and sockets are easy to price.
What is he actually charging

 

[Paul.M]

How many man hours does he work on each of your example jobs? What part of the country are you working in? Is he by himself or with another mate or electrician?

As for remedial work, if he is altering or installing circuits (specially in a bathroom) it has to be up to current standards of reg, eg correct sized bonding for disconnection times of the mcb/rcd plus rcd protection must be used for the circuits he's extending/installing. Don't feel ripped off when he tells you that these things need doing, its the minimum safety requirements that we have to achieve before any work can be carried out.

 

[jo4nny8]

Most jobs mean 1/2 day to first fix, then another 1/2 day to second fix.

The last job ive been quoted for for example ive have been quoted £360 for the bathroom and £660 for the kitchen, plus £300 worth of remedial work (installing rcd protection, bonding etc)

Thats £1300 for 2 jobs which, by the way, are at the same house at the same time!!

My concern is that i dont know if what im being told is true. For example, i know it all has to be Rcd protected. However, when the cu is protected, now they need to be rcbos, or the one they have isnt big enough or the right one, or the earthing on the gas and water has to be 10mm not 6mm for example.

Not being an electrician i take him at his word but im getting doubts creeping in and need to ensure im not getting done over.

Not that im saying i am, but, and ill elaborate.

We did a job recently there were 'remedials' required to bring the cu up to current regs, i forget what exactly it was but something like upgrading the gas and water, plus installing rcbos to a curcuit. This particular customer, unbeknown to us was an ex sparky and knew the regs inside and out. Whilst he agreed the work 'could' be deemed as being required, there was somehing that wasnt and therefore he refused to have it done. i looked like a T%^t!

I dont want to be telling customers work is legally required by law if its not.

Does that help?

 

[Paul.M]

Have a look at this web site Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council it will answer s lot of your questions regarding c/u changes, rcd requirements, bonding requirements. You could even print off the reinvent guild and show it to your customers if they contest the extra work that's needed. We have to prove to customers that we aren't ripping them off sometimes and these guides have helped me out in the past, specially with landlords.

 

[plugsandsparks]

mmmm, if you are in no position to judge, try another electrician, probably some on here would be happy with those prices ( i would be)
As for legal, you would need a lawyer to go anywhere near a court on this stuff, its a series of recommendations varying in severity where ultimately an electrcian is obliged to sign or not an installation as satisfactory to a standard. The standards are usually easy to understand and interpret but there are some debateable areas, that take up forum space on here for example so again no easy answer.

BUT overall, there is nothing i know of that is a complete waste of time and money, they all make a real improvement whther its bonding , RCBOs, low voltage stuff etc.
With electrics its all about reducing risk of injury and to property, there isn't a line as such it nearly always could be better.
The problem is the sparky is making the recommendations which can look like writing his own cheque, especially as those recommendations are "necessary" to get his signature on the docs

 

[DaveyD]

mmmm, if you are in no position to judge, try another electrician, probably some on here would be happy with those prices ( i would be)
As for legal, you would need a lawyer to go anywhere near a court on this stuff, its a series of recommendations varying in severity where ultimately an electrcian is obliged to sign or not an installation as satisfactory to a standard. The standards are usually easy to understand and interpret but there are some debateable areas, that take up forum space on here for example so again no easy answer.

BUT overall, there is nothing i know of that is a complete waste of time and money, they all make a real improvement whther its bonding , RCBOs, low voltage stuff etc.
With electrics its all about reducing risk of injury and to property, there isn't a line as such it nearly always could be better.
The problem is the sparky is making the recommendations which can look like writing his own cheque, especially as those recommendations are "necessary" to get his signature on the docs

100% - just what I was going to write. Nicely put.

 

[ruston]

mmmm, if you are in no position to judge, try another electrician, probably some on here would be happy with those prices ( i would be)
As for legal, you would need a lawyer to go anywhere near a court on this stuff, its a series of recommendations varying in severity where ultimately an electrcian is obliged to sign or not an installation as satisfactory to a standard. The standards are usually easy to understand and interpret but there are some debateable areas, that take up forum space on here for example so again no easy answer.

BUT overall, there is nothing i know of that is a complete waste of time and money, they all make a real improvement whther its bonding , RCBOs, low voltage stuff etc.
With electrics its all about reducing risk of injury and to property, there isn't a line as such it nearly always could be better.
The problem is the sparky is making the recommendations which can look like writing his own cheque, especially as those recommendations are "necessary" to get his signature on the docs

Another way to look at is you may be on here asking us what kind of defence, or redress you have against your electrician because you have had a comeback or an incident ,or just a plain non compliance that an ex sparky has noticed.
If you are happy with his work and there is plenty left in the job for you , I would be grateful that I have a sparky that I have trusted for four years.

Have a price review with him , he deserves a chance.

 

[jo4nny8]

Below is a quote.

Does it seem excessive? I dont want to find another sparky as hes a nice bloke and seems honest but it just doesnt seem to feel right

BATHROOM
option 1
Install four IP44 recessed spotlights.
Install a 4" wall mounted extract fan. The fan will have self closing shutters to reduce draughts.
Install a switched fused spur at height level within the bathroom to act as the fan isolator.
Install a twin switch to switch the light and fan independently. Switch to be installed external to the bathroom.
Total £344 inc VAT.

option2
As option 1 but with a better quality extract fan giving a much increased extract rate. The fan will be loft mounted and
a 4" extract vent will be installed in the bathroom ceiling. Insulated ducting will be used in the loft.
Add £88.60 inc VAT.
KITCHEN
Install eight recessed spot lights.
Install plinth lights.
Install under counter lights.
Ensure there is a power supply for the extract hood, oven, hob, dishwasher and washer.
Change all sockets etc to polished chrome.
Total £660 inc VAT.

CONSUMER UNIT (FUSE BOARD)
Not all circuits are RCD protected. RCD`s are devices that provide protection against electric shock and electric fires.
To meet the current requirements of BS7671 - iee wiring regulations I will have to install a RCBO for the kitchen
lighting circuit. RCBO`s are miniature circuit breakers with RCD protection built in.

The main earth conductor from the PME terminal in the meter box to the consumer unit is too small. It will need
replacing with a 16mm² earth cable.

The gas and water mains are not earthed. I will install a 10mm² earth cable form the consumer unit to the gas meter.
As the gas meter is so close this is an easy job. To earth the water main I will have to install a 20mm black plastic
conduit from the consumer unit to the water main . The conduit will be installed under the soffits.
Total £280 inc VAT.

 

[ruston]

Does'nt seem far away to be honest if he is supplying the gear.

 

[jo4nny8]

Im supplying / the customer is supplying.

He has to supply cable, clips etc plus fused spurs / pull chords etc.

All sockets and downlughts, plinth lights etc i supply

 

[jo4nny8]

if the prices are high for example, are they stupidly high do you think? i understand there will be differences in people prices but unless im likely to save hundreds id be happy to stick with him

 

[sythai]

Bathroom prices are spot on.... my bill would come to £340 +vat with you supplying lights. £60+vat extra for inline loft van decent branded

Just curious how do you agree the price for the job ?

I work for a couple of bathroom and kitchen and firms and they have my pricing menu which they work off.... everything is charged per point.

Any remedials or extras are billed separately and agree before hand (apart from underlying faults which are not obviously present)

 

[ruston]

Im supplying / the customer is supplying.

He has to supply cable, clips etc plus fused spurs / pull chords etc.

All sockets and downlughts, plinth lights etc i supply

Yes I understood that Bit from your previous post. It was the extra for the fan that threw me . The consumer board additions and work are about right unless it is really easy. The rest without seeing the job I don't think is robbery. Kitchen may be a bit high but perhaps is a real pig.

 

[Paul.M]

Install eight recessed spot lights.
Install plinth lights.
Install under counter lights.
Ensure there is a power supply for the extract hood, oven, hob, dishwasher and washer.
Change all sockets etc to polished chrome.
Total £660 inc VAT.



I've done almost the same install a few months ago and my price was £700. Saying that I did install a new ring and a radial socket circuits but the kitchen was ripped out and very easy access under the floor, a very easy first fix and my price reflected that. (West Yorkshire BTW)

 

[jo4nny8]

Thanks guys, that put my mind at rest!

 

[plugsandsparks]

I would say he is making a reasonable living so must be happy working with you.
Only thing i would question is the water bonding, if plastic coming into the building, other cheaper arrangements may be OK, cue debate....

As mentioned , there is nothing there that is not reducing risk to people and property.
My last fitting of an extractor i lost money on as the building was a pain, 17 inches thick and no cavity and struck gold with old wiring and pipe to navigate.
He has to take the rough with the smooth also.

 

[Octopus]

The question you should think about is that if you are happy with his workmanship, his time keeping, his quality and lastly his pricing why would you change?

I'm guessing he does all the required certificates and notification in the prices you outline.

 

[jo4nny8]

Yes very happy.

I was concerned as the prices are creeping up and every job has rememdial work.

Not being a spark i wanted to check i wasnt getting done over as it happens even if he is a mate.

Turns out all is well from the sounds of it

 

[ruston]

Yes very happy.

I was concerned as the prices are creeping up and every job has rememdial work.

Not being a spark i wanted to check i wasnt getting done over as it happens even if he is a mate.

Turns out all is well from the sounds of it

Can't blame you for that mate but a trip to the pumps and a bit of copper is an indication of what's what. Even a humble roll of tape has nearly doubled in the last couple of years. You know what the man said "We will all feel the pinch".

 

[Octopus]

Yes very happy.

I was concerned as the prices are creeping up and every job has rememdial work.

Not being a spark i wanted to check i wasnt getting done over as it happens even if he is a mate.

Turns out all is well from the sounds of it

Interesting - are you saying he has to come back and fix "his" work or he identifies mandatory upgrades that are required prior to being able to do the work? If its the later he sounds like a bod who's doing it by the "book" and not cutting corners and thus is a asset to your business.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Making a huge leap of an assumption but i would expect people who want a new kitchen or bathroom , it is because theres is very old and needs replacement. As 17th is relatively recent and RCDs are much more prominent, for lighting especially, it could well be that EVERY job does need an upgrade to CU and earhting.
You probably need to build that into your mind so dont think its a scam - its not.

 

[ruston]

Making a huge leap of an assumption but i would expect people who want a new kitchen or bathroom , it is because theres is very old and needs replacement. As 17th is relatively recent and RCDs are much more prominent, for lighting especially, it could well be that EVERY job does need an upgrade to CU and earhting.
You probably need to build that into your mind so dont think its a scam - its not.

Good point , you will know the general age of the installations you are replacing.

 

[sythai]

Making a huge leap of an assumption but i would expect people who want a new kitchen or bathroom , it is because theres is very old and needs replacement. As 17th is relatively recent and RCDs are much more prominent, for lighting especially, it could well be that EVERY job does need an upgrade to CU and earhting.
You probably need to build that into your mind so dont think its a scam - its not.

That is a fair comment.....

I would say at least 75% of kitchen and bathroom refurbs we carry out have some form of remedial works involved.

Most common being no RCD protection.

 

[1shortcircuit]

May I ask:-

What is the quality of this guys work?

Do you get any complaints regarding how he conducts his business in your customers home?

Do the customers complain about the price?

If everyone is happy then I would say stick with him but perhaps mention that it may be worth you both sitting down together and seeing if you can come up with a better pricing structure.

The rates you have posted seem very fair especially as there isn't really such thing as a half days work.

A good electrician is very hard to come by these days and whilst someone may be cheaper they may also reflect badly on your business through either call backs or general attitude towards your customer.

Perhaps you're feeling that because you are giving this chap quite an amount of work you feel he should be rewarding you back in some way?

If you're happy with him then stick with him. If he doesn't turn up on time or when he says and his work can be sloppy at times then perhaps look elsewhere but I'm pretty sure regardless of who you use the price will not be too different.

:thumbsup

 

[Amp David]

When installing a wall mounted fan, is the hole already there? If not who's coring it out? Have you seen the price of a 4 inch core bit?

Same with down lights, they're time intensive if you have to plan out in an existing ceiling to get then looking right.

Problem with going into properties that haven't been touched in years, there almost going to be remedials to complete. Its just the way it is.

I do work for bathroom guys and its a daily moan, them saying its too much etc etc. TBH once the works been completed and i go back to finish of, on most occasions i look at the bathroom and think christ almighty, if this lasts 5 years without falling apart/leaking then the customers lucky.

From my experience, its the bathroom fitter under quoting to get the work, who then throws in a new bathroom, then when they see how much I quote to do the job properly, to regs with nothing that can be pulled or criticised, they often think i'm over charging.

 

[jo4nny8]

Many thanks for all the replies guys!

To be honest he is great! Whilst he has the usual time issues like being late due to running over in another job, his work is very good.

I've never had a customer moan about anything, only the odd comment about the price and yes, people have mentioned about feeling like they 'have' to have remedial work done and they don't know if it's a legal requirement or a 'safety issue'

After reading your comments I'm happy that all is well and he's a good un' so will just have to stomach the fact that electrics are wgat I consider to be expensive and reflect that in my pricing on electrics.

Many thanks guys!!

 

[Octopus]

Many thanks for all the replies guys!

To be honest he is great! Whilst he has the usual time issues like being late due to running over in another job, his work is very good.

I've never had a customer moan about anything, only the odd comment about the price and yes, people have mentioned about feeling like they 'have' to have remedial work done and they don't know if it's a legal requirement or a 'safety issue'

After reading your comments I'm happy that all is well and he's a good un' so will just have to stomach the fact that electrics are wgat I consider to be expensive and reflect that in my pricing on electrics.

Many thanks guys!!

The "extras" we have to quote Joe Public for are often "embarassing" as many do think we are trying it on. There is a very good leflets by the ESC which covers water and gas bonding which I often email to clients.

Shame the ESC nor the schemes do much marketing to raise public awareness, which would help us all!

 

[Richard]

The only one of those prices that caught my eye was the protective bonds. But, without seeing the job, then its very difficult to say. With regards to the plinth lights, if he is having to measure and drill the relevant holes for these, then that can take ages as he'll only get one shot at them.

 

[1shortcircuit]

After reading your comments I'm happy that all is well and he's a good un' so will just have to stomach the fact that electrics are wgat I consider to be expensive and reflect that in my pricing on electrics.

When I work for other tradesmen I never deal with them I always deal direct with the client and discuss all electrical work/requirements with them. The reason for this is because it is not often that other trades put money on top of the electrical quotes to make their work look more competitive. Also, I never want to risk not being paid due to circumstances that may arise from the other tradesman's workmanship.

This can work both ways and from the clients point of view it gives them the option of using a spark of their choice. I am always happy to quote against competitors:thumbsup