I could be wrong posting here but i need help

[imjustanonymous]

Dear All,

Newbie here, not sure if this forum is for those who specifically electricians only or if general people can join for help and advice, so im taking a shot here, if this is the wrong website then please let me know and ill just copy and paste it there or wherever is appropriate

I need help as im in a dispute with someone who i hired to fit an electrical shower. Me and my family live in a housing association house who were East Homes but now are L&Q. In 2016 i started looking for a trader to help fit this shower for me, through word of mouth i came across someone who was hired by a family friend to do some painting job even though he says hes like an all rounder person. He came to view the house and where we wanted the shower and advised etc He said he would take on the job, i wasnt around home at the time due to university and my mum was when the actual works were being done, he did this around Mid 2016. He charged about £400, no proper contract or receipt given. He also had brought in another electrician to actually certify the work and to make it go live, have a copy of this certificate also. Managed to find out this electrician was with the NIC and Napit but no longer is since 2015

The work wasnt good, the conduit pipings he fitted started to fall off from the walls and tape also, he did this around the front main door and i kept having to fix them, he made some holes which werent correct and never repaired them, he left a breaker box not screwed down properly either, contacted him to try and fix this and he said he would come round but never came, after many calls to him and no answer, i gave up and did my diy of the conduit pipes but not the breaker box.

Fast forward to late 2018, L&Q came for a random inspection and basically saw the work and complained for health and safety and complained about the holes etc and basicaly disconnected the shower, we have been out of the shower since around November of last year. The L&Q electrician came and saw this and then went to the person who i hired, to his house left him a note about his work and there was some words between the two exchanged. The person i hired came round instantly said that his work is immaculate and nothings wrong with it. We said that we he needs to fix what the landlord said and he said he would after christmas, now its 2019 and April is almost ending and still nothing.

He came around in the end of February and said that he will charge more for having the conduits fixed, L&Q said he needed to have put metal brackets which he didnt and some exposed wire and to correct the amp also. He said all this costs extra money, i said surely not because he shouldve known this. He then said to me that all this about metal brackets on conduit pipes has only come in the new regulation of 2019 and when he did the work in 2016 it didnt matter he also gave an example of Grenfell to me. He also said id have to pay another electrician to get this certified

What i need to know is this:

Is he right about the regulation for 2019 where all conduit pipes need to have brackets which are near fire exit routes?

Do i have to pay more? I mean shouldnt have offer something

Where can i go to report him and get this work done because isnt listening to me and is adamant that he will only do more work for more money

I can provide pictures of the job but im not sure if this could be the right website, if this is then let me know please and i will because its been so long to get this sorted out, im busy with university and my mums busy with hospital runs with my sister

Any advice or information will be appreciated

Thanks

 

[Spoon]

Get a qualified spark in and demand to see his qualifications etc if you're not sure.

This is not a dig at you mate... Nice surname by the way...
Do the general public know what qualifications to look for?

 

[John Preston]

This is not a dig at you mate... Nice surname by the way...
Do the general public know what qualifications to look for?

Very true Mr Spoon... however just the asking the question might scare the life out of a dodgy geezer EDIT: Or Miss, or Mrs Spoon!

 

[Spoon]

Very true Mr Spoon... however just the asking the question might scare the life out of a dodgy geezer EDIT: Or Miss, or Mrs Spoon!

Whichever you want... We are all gender neutral here...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

When I first went self employed in 1988, I turned my hand to just about anything. Over a period of about 12 years, I did all sorts of work.
In one house, I replaced two floors from the foundations up.
One floor in the hallway 20’x 8’, the other in a room 24’x 12’.
Had to support the staircase with breeze blocks and car scissor jacks, rebuild all the brick pillars, replace all the joists and laid a floor from reclaimed planks taken from the side of a barn near where I was living
I replaced the rewire-able fuse box with a split load CU and installed some wall lights in the big room.
Demolished some out buildings and rebuilt a small lean-to.

Got a mate in to plaster the big room and another to paint it.
I did creosote the lean-to.

Another house, I would go round every so often to trim bushes and trees, fix the kitchen lights, replace the odd light fitting and even re-install a double socket that had been installed upside down (live conductor was too short to reach the terminal, the right way up).

Other work involved me going to a mate’s car garage and doing the odd bit of welding for him, replacing his fuse box and also replacing the fuse box in the cafe round the corner.
Still get the odd bit of electrical work from that cafe owner even now.
I also got work for Pimlico Council re-wiring flats in a Mansion block.
I got work for Epping Forest Council toshing out 3 maisonettes on the Limes Farm estate. Had to reconnect an RFC in one, as a link had been left out when a wall had been replaced.

During those 12 years, I did no advertising, it was all word of mouth. I doubt anyone would have described me as an Electrician, most likely as a welder or car mechanic, or even gardener.
Thing is, I qualified as an Electrician in 1983. C&G 2369 parts 1 & 2.

The point of all this, is for all those banging on about employing a painter to do electrical work.
The OP employed the painter because he was recommended.
I hear a lot of advice on here for people who want electrical work done. Most of it is to choose someone recommended by friends or neighbours.

Don’t get me wrong, the painter did a poor job.
No worse though than work I’ve seen done by qualified and registered electricians.

 

[Leesparkykent]

When I first went self employed in 1988, I turned my hand to just about anything. Over a period of about 12 years, I did all sorts of work.
In one house, I replaced two floors from the foundations up.
One floor in the hallway 20’x 8’, the other in a room 24’x 12’.
Had to support the staircase with breeze blocks and car scissor jacks, rebuild all the brick pillars, replace all the joists and laid a floor from reclaimed planks taken from the side of a barn near where I was living
I replaced the rewire-able fuse box with a split load CU and installed some wall lights in the big room.
Demolished some out buildings and rebuilt a small lean-to.

Got a mate in to plaster the big room and another to paint it.
I did creosote the lean-to.

Another house, I would go round every so often to trim bushes and trees, fix the kitchen lights, replace the odd light fitting and even re-install a double socket that had been installed upside down (live conductor was too short to reach the terminal, the right way up).

Other work involved me going to a mate’s car garage and doing the odd bit of welding for him, replacing his fuse box and also replacing the fuse box in the cafe round the corner.
Still get the odd bit of electrical work from that cafe owner even now.
I also got work for Pimlico Council re-wiring flats in a Mansion block.
I got work for Epping Forest Council toshing out 3 maisonettes on the Limes Farm estate. Had to reconnect an RFC in one, as a link had been left out when a wall had been replaced.

During those 12 years, I did no advertising, it was all word of mouth. I doubt anyone would have described me as an Electrician, most likely as a welder or car mechanic, or even gardener.
Thing is, I qualified as an Electrician in 1983. C&G 2369 parts 1 & 2.

The point of all this, is for all those banging on about employing a painter to do electrical work.
The OP employed the painter because he was recommended.
I hear a lot of advice on here for people who want electrical work done. Most of it is to choose someone recommended by friends or neighbours.

Don’t get me wrong, the painter did a poor job.
No worse though than work I’ve seen done by qualified and registered electricians.

Jack of all trades, master of none

 

[westward10]

Jack London with a Spin on all things.

 

[GBDamo]

I just need any sort of help in knowing what my grounds are, my rights and if i can get him to fix his work or if his work is good and i should pay extra to get it live again

Any sort of regulations or rules i can say to him that might make him realise i know things would help please

I feel sorry for you, this is an abortion of a job.

It would be quicker to list the things that are right about it than wrong simply because in those picture I saw nothing done correctly.

You do not want this man back to make good as he does not know what is good.

 

[imjustanonymous]

Thats a lash up alright. The incorrect amps that keeps been mentioned must be the 20A DP switch instead of a 45A or 50A Isolator.

The subcontractor he used should be coming back. Report to the NIC or whatever scheme he was with.

Big advert there for why sticky trunking should be used solely to assist installation, not as a permenant fixture.

Called the subcontractor, he said this is nothing to do with him, just me and the bloke who did the installing

 

[imjustanonymous]

That is definitely a rough job!! Looking at the pictures I'd be tempted to say it all needs ripping out and starting again properly. This is why people should employ proper tradesmen who are qualified & experienced and ideally come with good recommendations.

My advice - Employ a proper spark to come and rectify it asap.

Not sure if there is any merit in taking this guy to court, you would have to seek legal advice on that. But he should be! so he thinks twice about ripping someone else off with dodgy unsafe work.

I do admit its my fault for hiring him but it was through referrals so i thought i could trust them also

Who could i go to about taking this to court or reporting him?

 

[DPG]

Cut your losses and get someone new in to rip it out and redo it. It's a shame you've had to go through this though.

 

[imjustanonymous]

Hi,"Technically" has no part in this,either your landlord gave permission,or not. To avoid you having to rectify the issue,to the landlord's satisfaction,you would need this written permission.

If the landlord has informed you that the quality and safety,is a problem,then they have accepted knowledge of this,and would have to have the installation either fixed,or removed. This will undoubtedly be in your tenancy agreement.

I am not trying to sink your boat,and i appreciate,that this work was done with the best intentions,but i think your primary task,should not be chasing the muppets who let you down, You need to be ensuring the landlord is satisfied with the situation,as their first point of call,regarding any monies due,will be you.

The landlord gave permission for this to be done, just not through them, they said do it privately, the main concerns are the safety of the whole job, the landlord has said to go to the guy who did this in the first place and tell him to fix it, then to call the landlord who will come back to inspect again and then we can get another electrician to connect it again

I have called a few traders who i got from checkatrade and yelp, i explained to them what has happened, theyve all said to go back to that guy and get him to fix it or for him to reimburse money or to get someone else on his behalf to do the job, i seem to be stuck here

 

[imjustanonymous]

Why do you want the same guy back to fix this? Get a proper electrician to re-do the whole lot.

Take plenty of pictures and get the proper electrician to issue a independent report. You can use this to threaten the handy man with legal action to reclaim some your money. Draw a line under this and move on having learnt your lesson.

Wouldnt it be principle for him to fix what he messed up?

The independent report would contain all the mistakes that have happened correct? Where would i get legal action from for this?

 

[imjustanonymous]

Did you say he actually tried to defend his work?!?!?!

He did try to defend the work, he said that the inspection man from the housing association that saw this first, was not knowledgeable, was being abusive to him and he was saying how he has over 20 years of experience and how he does jobs all the time with no negative feedback given to him

 

[imjustanonymous]

Hi and good morning.
I cannot offer advice nor should you construe my comments as such. What I will do is to offer an opinion.
First over and above all I would NOT take court action. It will cost a lot of money and more than you could recover.

This is what I would do. You decide if this would be suitable for you.
1 : Obtain a survey of what needs to be done to make the installation compliant. This would be best obtained from the housing association, who I hope would be helpful to you in the circumstances. If not pay for a survey by a competent electrical contractor who should set out in writing what is required to make the work good.
2 : Write formally to your shower man and tell him that the installation has not been installed in accordance with the requirements of BS7671, and that following a safety inspection by the housing association, the shower has been disconnected by them.
Confirm that you enclose a survey report that details the remedial work that needs to be undertaken to bring the installation into compliance with BS7671.
3 : Request that he makes good the work and brings it up to a standard that complies with BS7671 and the relevant BS7671 Certificates are issued.
4 : Advise him that he is free to make good the work himself, or appoint a competent contractor to do so on his behalf, and that the total cost of the remedial works and issue of the relevant Certificates will be borne by himself. Whichever way he wishes to proceed with the work he should supply you with evidence that those who will do the work are suitably qualified and competent to do this by means of registration with a suitable trade association, and membership of a Competent Person Scheme in respect of the electrical inspection and testing work.
5 : Tell him that for the avoidance of doubt completion of the remedial works will only occur once the relevant test and inspection certificates have been made available, and the housing association landlord is satisfied with the standard of the remedial work.
6 : Request that he replies within 14 days of receipt of this letter setting out how he intends to proceed, and that if he does not reply within that you reserve the right to instruct a Contractor to undertake the remedial work, and will expect him to reimburse you the full costs of this.

Keep a copy of this letter, and the attachments, which if you have them should include any evidence from the housing association as to the condition/disconnection of the supply, and the survey report that sets out the work required to make the installation compliant. Do NOT discuss money at this stage.

Send the letter recorded delivery, and keep the receipt. You should also state at the start of the letter that it has been sent by recorded delivery to confirm receipt.

Wait for 21 days before moving to the next stage.

I believe you have a very firm opinion in which has made good points, i shall write to him. The BS7671, will this also comply with the Consumer rights act 2015? For where the legislation for service provided by trader was mot done using reasonable skill and care?

What would the stage be for after 21 days have passed?

 

[imjustanonymous]

Why would you get a painter to install your electric shower?

Bludi sure I wouldn't get a spark to paint my living room!

Oh...no...wait a minute...

Sparks can paint! No-one's going to die if they use the wrong stuff...doh!

As far as i heard, he could do electrician jobs and he has the certificates for it also, which he showed my mum not me as i wasnt here at the time, our fault, we get it

 

[john waters]

Pictures are here, i have put a space between the letter S and :

IMG-20190416-WA0008 - https://ibb.co/dMnxxw8
IMG-20190416-WA0009 - https://ibb.co/nnjHBSv
IMG-20190416-WA0012 - https://ibb.co/ZYjGsSV
IMG-20190416-WA0013 - https://ibb.co/bbyfmtF
IMG-20190416-WA0014 - https://ibb.co/s2wcbbC
IMG-20190416-WA0015 - https://ibb.co/0VM3ytW
IMG-20190416-WA0016 - https://ibb.co/KXZ2ZYv
IMG-20190416-WA0018 - https://ibb.co/Z619w1T
IMG-20190416-WA0019 - https://ibb.co/BVZRg88
IMG-20190416-WA0020 - https://ibb.co/mTWrnk0
IMG-20190416-WA0021 - https://ibb.co/j6qFYXX
IMG-20190416-WA0022 - https://ibb.co/SvK1HfC
IMG-20190416-WA0023 - https://ibb.co/VxDpt2f
IMG-20190416-WA0024 - https://ibb.co/6rYGXV4
IMG-20190416-WA0025 - https://ibb.co/zmTrNDq

did he tie his horse up outside

 

[imjustanonymous]

Back to basics on this whole post. Lesson learnt I'm afraid to say. Get a qualified spark in and demand to see his qualifications etc if you're not sure. Let the spark decide what can be saved and what needs removing. Get him to certify it (not someone else). Then let others know about the "handy man" and not to use him for electrical work. The guy that signed his work off and certified it needs to be mentioned as well as he has no right to self certify due to him not being a member of any scheme. I would think the NIC or Nappit or whoever would not take lightly to someone using their certificates when they are no longer a member. They would probably pursue him for you and give him a good rogering!

I have spoken to the guy that signed off the work, he said he doesnt remember it, doesnt want to come round to see it, and in the end he said it will have nothing to do with him as he didnt actually do the installation. Since he is no longer a member of any of the bodies, nothing can be done to him because his last membership was with Scoma i believe in 2015 and the job was done in 2016

On the certificate he gave to me, there was no mention or logo of the bodies but the certificate looked odd

 

[imjustanonymous]

Back to basics on this whole post. Lesson learnt I'm afraid to say. Get a qualified spark in and demand to see his qualifications etc if you're not sure. Let the spark decide what can be saved and what needs removing. Get him to certify it (not someone else). Then let others know about the "handy man" and not to use him for electrical work. The guy that signed his work off and certified it needs to be mentioned as well as he has no right to self certify due to him not being a member of any scheme. I would think the NIC or Nappit or whoever would not take lightly to someone using their certificates when they are no longer a member. They would probably pursue him for you and give him a good rogering!

I have spoken to the guy that signed off the work, he said he doesnt remember it, doesnt want to come round to see it, and in the end he said it will have nothing to do with him as he didnt actually do the installation. Since he is no longer a member of any of the bodies, nothing can be done to him because his last membership was with Scoma i believe in 2015 and the job was done in 2016

On the certificate he gave to me, there was no mention or logo of the bodies but the certificate looked odd

 

[DPG]

You don't want these guys back. You need a proper electrician who do the work and give you a certificate.

 

[imjustanonymous]

I feel sorry for you, this is an abortion of a job.

It would be quicker to list the things that are right about it than wrong simply because in those picture I saw nothing done correctly.

You do not want this man back to make good as he does not know what is good.

Would there be any to retrieve money back from him or for him to get someone on his behalf to fix this? I agree with the quality of a job being so poor, said to everyone i get its my mistake but he was referred, i just thought it would have been principle for him to rectify this all

 

[imjustanonymous]

Cut your losses and get someone new in to rip it out and redo it. It's a shame you've had to go through this though.

Cant even imagine how much and how long that would take for it to be done

 

[DPG]

Cant even imagine how much and how long that would take for it to be done

The job should not take long.

 

[GBDamo]

Wouldnt it be principle for him to fix what he messed up?

The independent report would contain all the mistakes that have happened correct? Where would i get legal action from for this?

Would there be any to retrieve money back from him or for him to get someone on his behalf to fix this? I agree with the quality of a job being so poor, said to everyone i get its my mistake but he was referred, i just thought it would have been principle for him to rectify this all

I would normally agree but this guy is so totally and utterly incompetent, unsafely so.

You can give him a detailed list of faults but he doesn't posses the skills or knowledge to remedy them correctly.

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor.

Then you could try Money Claim On Line but that process will insist you have given him opportunity to put this right.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him, nor will he pay for the job to be corrected. Unfortunately the cost of other routes to recovery are prohibitive.

 

[imjustanonymous]

did he tie his horse up outside

He so did

 

[imjustanonymous]

I would normally agree but this guy is so totally and utterly incompetent, unsafely so.

You can give him a detailed list of faults but he doesn't posses the skills or knowledge to remedy them correctly.

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor.

Then you could try Money Claim On Line but that process will insist you have given him opportunity to put this right.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him, nor will he pay for the job to be corrected. Unfortunately the cost of other routes to recovery are prohibitive.

What if he refuses to get someone to do this on his behalf also? What can i say to him that may feel like he is being threatened to rectify this

So i could be at a loss then

 

[GBDamo]

Would there be any to retrieve money back from him or for him to get someone on his behalf to fix this? I agree with the quality of a job being so poor, said to everyone i get its my mistake but he was referred, i just thought it would have been principle for him to rectify this all

What if he refuses to get someone to do this on his behalf also? What can i say to him that may feel like he is being threatened to rectify this

So i could be at a loss then

MCOL - Money Claim Online - Welcome - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

you need to do some reading, unless you want to sit in a leather chair in my shed and be charged £250/hour for it.

 

[imjustanonymous]

MCOL - Money Claim Online - Welcome - https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

you need to do some reading, unless you want to sit in a leather chair in my shed and be charged £250/hour for it.

Thank you very much

If the chair is comfortable, i dont mind

 

[45140]

GBDamo, apologies but I must take issue with your post and advice.

Contractually, and very begrudgingly, I'd offer him the opportunity to hire someone competent to do the work stating in the letter your belief he is not competent, attach your list of faults from your LLs assessor.

Absolutely wrong. Under no circumstances should you ever accuse someone of being incompetent unless you really do have a stack of evidence and even then it really should not be done. The person making the claim would need to prove their own competence to have reached such a judgement.

Then you could try Money Claim On Line but that process will insist you have given him opportunity to put this right.

Any legal redress will require that the shower man is given the opportunity to put matters right. That is exactly what the claimant needs to allow him to do.

Sadly you wont see a penny back from him.

Your opinion, but not correct

...nor will he pay for the job to be corrected.

Oh yes he will...and he will pay substantially for it

.unfortunately the cost of other routes to recovery are prohibitive.

There is no need to proceed beyond the online small claims court with a transfer of the judgement to the High Court - which cost is recoverable on enforcement.

 

[GBDamo]

GBDamo, apologies but I must take issue with your post and advice.

Actually you don't, you've mostly written the same advice differently expecting a different outcome.

Absolutely wrong. Under no circumstances should you ever accuse someone of being incompetent unless you really do have a stack of evidence and even then it really should not be done. The person making the claim would need to prove their own competence to have reached such a judgement.

His LLs electrician has disconnected the installation and condemned it, so it is not me advising the OP to claim the cowboy is incompetence the OP has received professional advice stating it as fact, hence why i suggested attaching the LLs assessment.

Any legal redress will require that the shower man is given the opportunity to put matters right. That is exactly what the claimant needs to allow him to do.

I do believe there is an echo in here, in here, in here

Your opinion, but not correct

...in your opinion, we'll see though.

Oh yes he will...and he will pay substantially for it

I refer the learned gentleman to my earlier answer.

There is no need to proceed beyond the online small claims court with a transfer of the judgement to the High Court - which cost is recoverable on enforcement.

In my opinion, without a written contract or other sound proof a contract has been entered into and between whom then there is precious little for MCOL to settle.

 

[PEG]

.....If Tescos were still making burgers out of this horse....it would be very tender...