In defence of the short course trainee

[GLENNSPARK]

rite i`v had enough of talking shyte for one evenin....

take care guys N test safe...

 

[UNG]

This reply is not in response to any particular post, it's just summat to chuck in here. I can't comment on whether folks who've done these courses are adequately trained for the work they'll do or not. The following is mostly about labels.

"What is an electrician?"

Anyone heard of the "Wiring Matters" periodical? (Obviously, everyone has, I know it's just me. Bit slow on the uptake, sometimes). Published by the IET - those letters should at least be familiar! If the BGB is the "Electrician's Bible" then the IET must be Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Genuinely, had no idea this magazine existed. Is it well regarded by folks around here?

There's a 1 page article entitled "What is an electrican?" (issue 44, Autumn 2012), written by the CEO of the Joint Industries Board. He's fairly clear on what the answer is.

(There's also an article on earthing that mentions caravans...)

Maybe it's just semantics. Those with experience and qualifications in line with the article cited above, call yourselves electricians. Those with experience and qualifications that limit your expertise to fairly standard domestic situations, call yourselves domestic installers (or even domestic electrical installers). It doesn't have to be a derogatory title. Take pride in it, if you like. It accurately describes the majority of your work, I imagine? Or will someone (who's been there and done it) put me straight, can you go from one of these courses and competently work in a commercial or industrial environment?

Open questions and food for thought.

This actually clears up why so many have problems fault finding they are only installers

 

[Geordie Spark]

rite i`v had enough of talking shyte for one evenin....

take care guys N test safe...

Doctor looked at the results of my test & said I was safe.

 

[Engineer54]

[/B]

No they are not - I have taken these exams and the course materials and tuition leading to them certainly require no previous knowledge/experience/qualifications. There is an alternative to the Fundamental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification course which is intended for people with previous knowledge/experience/qualifications. You really should refrain from posting on topics you know nothing about.

Oh but they ARE!! ...and shows just how much (or should i say ''little''), you know about this profession and what it takes to become an electrician!! lol!!
The Reg's qualification is even an ''Open Book'' exam that any fool and his dog could pass!!
ALL the qualifictions i hold are REAL qualifications, taken in a time when optaining exam passes meant that you had to know that qualification material inside out, or you Failed!! No multiple choice questions in my day, you had to answer the questions fully!!



I could pass comment on the basis I suspect JIB cards and the like are awarded, but it would be edited, so I won't. As for your chosen employee, he's welcome to you.

That's just it, you are in no posistion to pass any judgement or comment because you don't come even close to meeting the basic criteria of being an Electrician. If the truth be known that's what get's you're craw, you've spent £000's and you are still nowhere near being competent, except in your own mind that is!!
I've not had to look or hunt around for work for the last 20+ years, they have come to look for me!! lol!!

How much are you paid by your clandestine trade union to try to defame people for trying to make an honest living? You certainly seem to spend a lot of time on this forum for someone who claims to make a living at a job that takes you away from your computer.

Haven't had any need personally, to belong to any trade union since first joining the company i trained with!!. But i do get paid big bucks!! ...lol!! I spend an hour or two first thing in the morning and then a couple of hours or so of an evening on here, while working on my project material, the forum is then running in the background. A welcome break while i enjoy a coffee or something stronger!!

The problem with people of your g*n*r*tion is that you are so selfish and greedy. You refuse to teach us the way you were taught, then when we find other ways of learning, at our own expense, you can't bare it. You just want all the work and money for yourselves. You are young, you can starve, that's your attitude. Well sorry, but I ain't gonna die willingly. And I ain't gonna stop taking a pride in the way I make my living.

NO, wrong again, the people of my generation did the time and made the sacrifices to become electricians, there was no other way into the industry!! It's not the fault of the older electricians, most will happily pass on their knowledge to those learning the trade in a bonafide manner. I, like the qualified older electricians (including the younger ones) on this and other forums ARE passing on the knowledge they hold, even to you chip on the shoulder wannabe's, that think 5 weeks is all you need. Some here have chosen to become college lectures to end their day's in the industry.

Oh, and any ''pride'' that was once associated with this industry has been almost totally erroded by you wannabe's and why fully qualified electricians are now offered pay rates that the like's of you are happy to work for, while practicing in/on the unsuspecting general publics homes....

One more thing - you should think carefully about the legal implications of accusing someone of incompetence without any actual evidence, when that person's livelihood depends on their reputation.

The very last thing i need to worry about, legally or otherwise is being able to accuse you and people like you of incompetence. You do not meet any of the criteria that defines an Electrician. ...You're a wannabe, nothing more, and that is the TRUTH of the matter!!

This will be my last post on this thread. I trust that your second use of the phrase ""End Of" means you feel the same way.

Thank god for that!!

I'll await the next jumped up grossly under trained, under qualified and inexperienced wannabe that thinks his 4/5 week or 17 day course entitles him to be called an electrician!! lol!!

 

[garrywatters]

Let me, as a UK qualified but working abroad sparks, tell you this! Here in OZ you will need to prove that you have electrical quals to at least 2330 level 3. You will also be required to give at least 5 years work experience as an electrician to gain the minimum licence required to work over here! There is no such thing as a fast track sparks/Electrical Trainee/17 day wonder, you would be laughed out of the immigration program as a diy wannabe! You need your quals verified and then you attend a three week course to bring you up to speed with current AUS/NZ wiring regs. Once this is passed you then you have several theory exams to sit as in UK for 2330 and equivalent, this is followed by a practical exam similar to em2. Minimum pass mark for all these exams for us foreigners is 90%. We start at basic level how to wire a plug all the way through to three phase generation systems with fault finding thrown in. At the end of all that you receive a licence to work as a domestic installer! If you wish to progress through to Industrial spark (where the money really lies) then you need to do a year minimum in this field under supervision and then sit further exams to obtain that licence. If you have not done all of the above over here then you are not seen as an electrician and will not be allowed to trade. We have had many people rock up on a holiday visa telling us they are a qualified spark, when we have asked for their quals they almost always produce some cert that says they are a domestic uk installer and that is all! Funnily enough they don't even get a look in. Over here it is about qauls and competency, not just about competency. You are also required to keep yourself and your licence up to date with current regs and will have to take the latest regs exam or your licence is revoked. Also don't even think about trading without the relevant licence as you WILL go to gaol when you get caught as the person who employed you will receive a massive fine.

 

[UNG]

Selfmade, I will agree that the courses you have taken have no entry requirements other than a large wallet full of readies this is because the companies delivering these courses have designed them in house and they are given some credibility because C&G or EAL choose endorse them this leads to some confusion as they are not mainstream qualifications and are not easily recognised throughout the industry, very simple research if you choose to do it, .

All I can think is these quick training companies must have some sort of training microwave that can deliver 2 or 3 years or more knowledge and training in a matter of weeks or are they missing a lot out which is more likely, this is the same training that brain washes the students into believing they will be fully qualified electricians on passing the exams and assessments set by them the training provider.

These training providers seem to be saturating the domestic sector with DI's yet don't seem to have any quick training for producing commercial and industrial installers or sparks I wonder why that is

While the quick training system is nothing new the introduction of Part P, the competent persons schemes and Labour's perception that there was a lack skilled trades people has taken it to new depths

The fact is those of us with many years in the trade are still learning as this industry is and will continually be evolving for better or worse the one thing that stands out is as it becomes more complex the training is lacking

 

[richy3333]

This comment isn't aimed at Selfmade, but his posts bring the thought to mind. In Scotland we don't even have Part P so there's plenty of people undertaking electrical work without any form Part P policing. At least many of those in England & Wales join a scam or at least are aware they should be doing so, where as up here numerous DIYers wire up their houses and get the work through the Building Warrant - flying by the seat of their kilt!

 

[Engineer54]

Let me, as a UK qualified but working abroad sparks, tell you this! Here in OZ you will need to prove that you have electrical quals to at least 2330 level 3. You will also be required to give at least 5 years work experience as an electrician to gain the minimum licence required to work over here! There is no such thing as a fast track sparks/Electrical Trainee/17 day wonder, you would be laughed out of the immigration program as a diy wannabe! You need your quals verified and then you attend a three week course to bring you up to speed with current AUS/NZ wiring regs. Once this is passed you then you have several theory exams to sit as in UK for 2330 and equivalent, this is followed by a practical exam similar to em2. Minimum pass mark for all these exams for us foreigners is 90%. We start at basic level how to wire a plug all the way through to three phase generation systems with fault finding thrown in. At the end of all that you receive a licence to work as a domestic installer! If you wish to progress through to Industrial spark (where the money really lies) then you need to do a year minimum in this field under supervision and then sit further exams to obtain that licence. If you have not done all of the above over here then you are not seen as an electrician and will not be allowed to trade. We have had many people rock up on a holiday visa telling us they are a qualified spark, when we have asked for their quals they almost always produce some cert that says they are a domestic uk installer and that is all! Funnily enough they don't even get a look in. Over here it is about qauls and competency, not just about competency. You are also required to keep yourself and your licence up to date with current regs and will have to take the latest regs exam or your licence is revoked. Also don't even think about trading without the relevant licence as you WILL go to gaol when you get caught as the person who employed you will receive a massive fine.

A few facts and reality checks and you've made there Garry and a wake-up call for all these Parliamentary Committees we keep hearing about!! Unfortunately, the UK is the ''ONLY'' country that has and/or allows these grossly under trained, under qualified and inexperienced Wannabe's trade in the electrical industry on the unsuspecting public, which just goes to show how far the electrical industry has fallen in the UK!!. It's a shame Europe don't Harmonise an Electricians ''Required Credentials''. That'll put an abrupt stop to these parasitic Scam organisations and fast track training centre's from churning out these so-called DI's

 

[Chrisuk]

I don't get these Electrical Trainee courses, I'm working my --- off at college and the class is reminded that even at the end of level 3 2365 we will NOT be sparkys, we must work in the real word along since a competent sparky and do NVQ 3 and do work that will stay up and not just on a 3'x4' piece of timber in the work shop, so why if I can't become a sparky after years, can someone go do a 5 week course which I assume is class and workshop, yet they get qualified!!I guess the 7k they paid must help!!! Am I missing something of after my level 3 could I get a job as a sparky??I'm thinking.....No?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't get these Electrical Trainee courses, I'm working my --- off at college and the class is reminded that even at the end of level 3 2365 we will NOT be sparkys, we must work in the real word along since a competent sparky and do NVQ 3 and do work that will stay up and not just on a 3'x4' piece of timber in the work shop, so why if I can't become a sparky after years, can someone go do a 5 week course which I assume is class and workshop, yet they get qualified!!I guess the 7k they paid must help!!! Am I missing something of after my level 3 could I get a job as a sparky??I'm thinking.....No?

and you`v just answered your own question here then havn`t you....

 

[Chrisuk]

I wanted others thoughts glenn, why they can go do it for 5 weeks and get work yet I'm told after years I can't yet we both are doing class and workshop!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I wanted others thoughts glenn, why they can go do it for 5 weeks and get work yet I'm told after years I can't yet we both are doing class and workshop!

well...the point i was making is you have been told that to become an electrician you need the lot...which just shows up these 5 week/17 day whatever course providers as the lying, scamming, cheating conmen that they are...doesn`t it...

i think you will get similar shrift from most of the others in here as well...

by the way...good on you for going down the proper, recognised route.....

takes time to do things rite but the foundations will be solid.....

at least you will be able to hold your head up high in this world...knowing that it will be unlikely that others will have to go around after you putting right some of the shoddy, slack arsed and downrite dangerous non-conformance crap that passes off as `install` by some of these charlatans/impostors...

 

[Chrisuk]

It seems crazy, i don't think my brain could squeeze the whole lot in within 5 weeks, far too much to learn

Thanks for your reply and thanks, im trying to do it the right way, surely it's the best way.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

It seems crazy, i don't think my brain could squeeze the whole lot in within 5 weeks, far too much to learn

Thanks for your reply and thanks, im trying to do it the right way, surely it's the best way.

oh..i wouldn`t worry about that too much..

anyone would think expectations were high in 17 day land....

intellect has few opportunities there...

 

[Engineer54]

I don't get these Electrical Trainee courses, I'm working my --- off at college and the class is reminded that even at the end of level 3 2365 we will NOT be sparkys, we must work in the real word along since a competent sparky and do NVQ 3 and do work that will stay up and not just on a 3'x4' piece of timber in the work shop, so why if I can't become a sparky after years, can someone go do a 5 week course which I assume is class and workshop, yet they get qualified!!I guess the 7k they paid must help!!! Am I missing something of after my level 3 could I get a job as a sparky??I'm thinking.....No?

Ah, but that's is where you are Wrong!! They have paid out all this money, and all they have to show for it, is a supplementary qualification (C&G 2382) and maybe a totally useless PAT testing qualification. They are certainly far from being considered even remotely qualified.
Far different from you when you have completed the full level 3 2365, especially if you can manage to complete the AM2 and NVQ Lv3 by finding a company to take you on in the final year....

Anyway, no need whatsoever to be jealous of the 17 day/Electrical Trainee's....

 

[Chrisuk]

Not too sure what to think about this, you say that they are not considered remotely qualified yet I keep reading about a lot of the Electrical Trainee are now taking a lot of the work, guess what I'm getting at is people must be employing them or they go self employed, and I won't lie I'm worried I could do my years and finish level 3 and not get into the industry because of my age I may find it hard to find an employer to give me that chance, yet seems the Electrical Trainee get into it after 5 weeks!!

 

[Engineer54]

Not too sure what to think about this, you say that they are not considered remotely qualified yet I keep reading about a lot of the Electrical Trainee are now taking a lot of the work, guess what I'm getting at is people must be employing them or they go self employed, and I won't lie I'm worried I could do my years and finish level 3 and not get into the industry because of my age I may find it hard to find an employer to give me that chance, yet seems the Electrical Trainee get into it after 5 weeks!!

Who the hell will employ a Electrical Trainee wannabe over a fully qualified electrician?? No -one, and why the vast majority of these 17 Day/electrical trainee's are self employed!! One thing is for sure, you'll not find any of these wannabe's on JIB/SJIB sites working as electricians

 

[Chrisuk]

This is again where I get slightly confused so apologises
If they decide to go self employed, since I know nothing about this please excuse if this is a daft question, when they advertise and get a call from joe public, don't customers ask to see a card that would show u are qualified ??
and if so how do they get one after 5 weeks??
and if not is it that the customer wants the cheapest??
Or do people just trust at face value if it's said John Electrical Trainee is qualified then he must be and must know what he's doing?

 

[UNG]

The 17 day / 5 week course appears to satisfy the requirements of scams oops sorry the parasitic schemes that make a chunk of money confirming that the 17 day / 5 week courses create a fully competent spark as you are finding out this is far from the truth.

It's good to hear that there are some people who will put in the time and effort to do the training properly and understand the limitations of the alternative and inferior training methods

 

[ipf]

This is again where I get slightly confused so apologises
If they decide to go self employed, since I know nothing about this please excuse if this is a daft question, when they advertise and get a call from joe public, don't customers ask to see a card that would show u are qualified ??
and if so how do they get one after 5 weeks??
and if not is it that the customer wants the cheapest??
Or do people just trust at face value if it's said John Electrical Trainee is qualified then he must be and must know what he's doing?

Ignorance is bliss....................especially when it's cheap.