In defence of the short course trainee

[Des 56]

The attached was received by ME, yesterday (Sat 16/11/13).

View attachment 21461

I would suggest that interesting response be titled and given a thread of its own for members information

 

[NJG28]

I understand where you are coming from but generalisations aren't helpful.

I am DI. Didn't do it traditional way, several weeks all in 1 go with 1 company. Did it in bits over time with different companies. I was 49yrs old.

For my Elecsa assessment, my "first job" was moving & changing CU at MY HOME. Found loads issues & sought help in resolving some. Did job via BC & their sparky tested & signed off.

My "second job" was at MY PARENTS place.

I wouldn't want to make either property dangerous ! So my post-course attitude is far from some "know it all" or "any old how will do" I try to work with a mantra "not just does it work - but is it safe?"

I attend every training event I can; read as much as I can etc.

I don't pretend to be anything Im not.

A fair bit of my early business was from folk let down by full sparks who never kept appointments & never phoned before or after. Many have had me back to do other works.

Its fair to say that on some of my courses there were lads who had never picked up a screwdriver & showed no practical aptitude.

I had owned several houses over 20+ year & did diy of many types on them.

So all the DIs weren't starting from same point.

In my last occupation I was well respected for my 30 years experience. I tried to help the less experienced provided they showed right attitude wanting to "get it right". That came to an end. I am now at the opposite end of the spectrum & hope to continue to learn off sparks who have lots experience.

A former colleague of mine had a favourite phrase ; " do you have 20 yrs experience or 1 yrs experience - repeated 20 times !?"

Sometimes attitude is an important factor too.

My respect & regards to you. Clearly you have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.

Sorry, ....but i firmly stand behind every sentence i've ever posted on the subject!!

Not sure why you think doing things in bits over time with different companies makes any difference?? Can't see it myself!!

...

The difference was, I didn't fall for salesman hype. Did courses over time & after research & saved a lot of money as I didn't accept 1st price offered for some 5 day training events. Didn't allow myself to be "ripped off"

Secondly, you "stand by every sentence .. " Your prerogative of course - but you did say I wasn't competent to do CU change whereas I have demonstrated that I was - confirmed by BC sparky

 

[Selfmade]

The problem with any registers is that you end up needing assessment from an established spark. And sometimes, as with the jobs market, if you are not born into the right family, that assessment will not be available. The 5 week wonder companies, imperfect though they certainly are, at least make it possible for anyone to pay their fee and prove their capability - through exams and practicals. Sorry if I sound like I have a chip on my shoulder here!

 

[Selfmade]

So....you can undercut a crap spark...and, no doubt, a very good one, within your field.
I, too, can admit when I don't know something. However, in over 40 years, I can't remember ever having to admit that to a customer.........goes to show doesn't it!

Good point, but that's maybe down to what customers know and expect - I'm guessing you couldn't fix someone's computer if asked (I may be wrong) but you are not asked because people know electricians are not the people to ask to fix computers. But I am asked to fix door entry systems because people don't have a clue (I guess understandably) what a DI is and can and can't do.

 

[guest119]

Before 2005 there was no legal requirement for electrical standards in domestic


What a load of kack.
EAWA, Common law etc.
Install strictly to bs7671, 16th or 17th, whatever was in vogue at the time and you have the roots of a court defence.

Boydy

 

[GLENNSPARK]

increased the number of registered `electricians`...if you could call some of them that...:yes

increased the level of competancy.....: a resounding no.

 

[Engineer54]

The difference was, I didn't fall for salesman hype. Did courses over time & after research & saved a lot of money as I didn't accept 1st price offered for some 5 day training events. Didn't allow myself to be "ripped off"

Secondly, you "stand by every sentence .. " Your prerogative of course - but you did say I wasn't competent to do CU change whereas I have demonstrated that I was - confirmed by BC sparky

What the hell has that got to do, with meeting the standards of being an Electrican??
Are you being serious here, confirmed by a BC electrician, do me a favour!!

Are you a qualified electrician, ....NO!!

That at the end of the day is the bottom line.

 

[Darkwood]

When i started 'Electrician' came with respect and good education and competence.

25yrs later with the dumming down of both the school and college system anyone can be a sparkie .... the evidence is out there, 60-70% failure rate in my day compared to 90% pass rate now and those passing cant even do basic maths and physics so for all you newby qualified sparks dont try and justify your competence with a piece of paper it means nothing now your not at fault here but the system you are under, its the fault of government after government trying to get political points by lowering the standards just so they can show higher achievements.

When i was 11 i had to know up to my 15 X table off by heart or detention nowadays you ask anyone what a simple equation and they run to a calculator.

Ive vetted apprentices for 20yrs and ive had to lower my standards repeatedly over the decades because they are coming out of school as thick as pig xxxx!

 

[Engineer54]

The problem with any registers is that you end up needing assessment from an established spark. And sometimes, as with the jobs market, if you are not born into the right family, that assessment will not be available. The 5 week wonder companies, imperfect though they certainly are, at least make it possible for anyone to pay their fee and prove their capability - through exams and practicals. Sorry if I sound like I have a chip on my shoulder here!

No you don't need assessment by another spark or inspector. It would be very similar to obtaining a JIB card where you would need to submit all qualifications obtained and proof of work experience!!

As for electrical trainee's, pray tell me how any of them are going to prove ''capability'' through exams after just 5 weeks?? What exams are you talking about, the 17th open book, PAT testing?? Yeah right!! lol!!

In the real world there is no such thing as a DI, and certainly no such thing as an electrician being capable or competent after just 5 weeks of training. You can gloss your inappropriate training and qualifications up as much as you like, you and others like you, do not cut the mustard in coming anywhere near close to being competent electricians to enter peoples homes and muck around with the electrical installations.

You entered this industry through a loophole created and exploited by the irresponsible and greedy scheme providers, End Of!!

 

[Des 56]

An electrician should be capable, to an accepted level, of operating in all parts of the industry,be it commercial domestic or industrial,installation or maintenance
Depending on which sector they work,becoming familiar with present practice should be well within their capability

That is the ideal world,that was,also in general, what was the case
This sectioning off the skill of the spark for pound notes and the creation of the creature called a domestic installer,it has got to be a very negative situation for the country and its skill levels

In the few years it has been allowed to happen.it has almost destroyed what was a very respectable occupation
I once had pride in saying I am a spark,now it is with dismay that we are but an add on to other lesser trades because of the domestic installer created creature,thank you Nicy

 

[Selfmade]

100% agree with this. Regulations should be about what is acceptable practice, not who is accepted to practice. Anything else is a green light for bribery and corruption.

(Sorry - meant to quote boydy here): "Before 2005 there was no legal requirement for electrical standards in domestic


What a load of kack.
EAWA, Common law etc.
Install strictly to bs7671, 16th or 17th, whatever was in vogue at the time and you have the roots of a court defence."

 

[Selfmade]

No you don't need assessment by another spark or inspector. It would be very similar to obtaining a JIB card where you would need to submit all qualifications obtained and proof of work experience!!

So you need proof of work experience in order to be allowed to work... pretty much exactly my point.

As for electrical trainee's, pray tell me how any of them are going to prove ''capability'' through exams after just 5 weeks?? What exams are you talking about, the 17th open book, PAT testing?? Yeah right!! lol!!

"Level 3" wiring regs qualification is BS, agreed - an exam in how to find something in an index! "Level 2" EAL Domestic Installer course on the hand - taught me a heck of a lot in a short time and then tested that I had understood it, both theoretically and practically. Same went for Fundamental Inspection, Testing, and Initial Verification. Couldn't do what I do without these two.

In the real world there is no such thing as a DI, and certainly no such thing as an electrician being capable or competent after just 5 weeks of training. You can gloss your inappropriate training and qualifications up as much as you like, you and others like you, do not cut the mustard in coming anywhere near close to being competent electricians to enter peoples homes and muck around with the electrical installations.

In the real world there's no such thing as a taxi driver, and no way anyone who doesn't have a pilot's licence can possibly be competent to drive a car! What a load of nonsense! I am quite competent to wire a house thank you very much, but wouldn't have a clue where to begin wiring a factory. If I could afford a house of my own I'd happily wire it myself and sleep in it perfectly easily - unlike in most other houses, which I now know to be death traps!

You entered this industry through a loophole created and exploited by the irresponsible and greedy scheme providers, End Of!!

I'm pretty confident that 99% of the shoddy work I find has nothing to do with incompetence and everything to do with cutting corners and increasing profits - you don't leave off blanks from a CU because you are unaware there are live components inside. A five year apprenticeship, work experience, being a member of a scheme, bureaucracy (yes, I'm talking to you part P, long may you stay away from Scotland) - none of these things will give people a conscience, many of them will increase profits for the organisations that run them, costing the customer, and putting on more pressure to cut corners, ALL give the green light to corruption by making it a subjective decision (unlike an exam) who gets to enter the industry.

 

[Engineer54]

So you need proof of work experience in order to be allowed to work... pretty much exactly my point.

"Level 3" wiring regs qualification is BS, agreed - an exam in how to find something in an index! "Level 2" EAL Domestic Installer course on the hand - taught me a heck of a lot in a short time and then tested that I had understood it, both theoretically and practically. Same went for Fundamental Inspection, Testing, and Initial Verification. Couldn't do what I do without these two.
These qualifications your talking about here are supplementry/add-on qualifications, that shouldn't really be entered into without the core/fundemental qualifications such as 2360/2330 level 3. They certainly shouldn't be seen in any way shape or form, as a stand alone proof of any competencey for an electrician for gods sake!!

In the real world there's no such thing as a taxi driver, and no way anyone who doesn't have a pilot's licence can possibly be competent to drive a car! What a load of nonsense! I am quite competent to wire a house thank you very much, but wouldn't have a clue where to begin wiring a factory. If I could afford a house of my own I'd happily wire it myself and sleep in it perfectly easily - unlike in most other houses, which I now know to be death traps!
No you only THINK (convinced yourself) that your competent, like most of the under trained under qualified and inexperienced electrical trainee's out there. I'm afraid your the one talking nonsense, but you just can't see that, let alone admit to it!! And why you and people like you are so bloody dangerous being let loose on the general public!!


I'm pretty confident that 99% of the shoddy work I find has nothing to do with incompetence and everything to do with cutting corners and increasing profits - you don't leave off blanks from a CU because you are unaware there are live components inside. A five year apprenticeship, work experience, being a member of a scheme, bureaucracy (yes, I'm talking to you part P, long may you stay away from Scotland) - none of these things will give people a conscience, many of them will increase profits for the organisations that run them, costing the customer, and putting on more pressure to cut corners, ALL give the green light to corruption by making it a subjective decision (unlike an exam) who gets to enter the industry.
Well give me an indentured 5 year apprentice trained and fully work experienced electrician any day of the week over any 5 WW. For all the JIB's /SJIB's faults, one thing is for sure you'll not find a single fast track electrical trainee or 17day Whizz Kidz with a JIB electricians card.
As for Part 'P' providers they are dead ducks, that have allowed you and others like you to enter our once proud industry and helped to systematically destroy it!!!

You can make believe and convince yourself all you like, but in reality you are Only one or two steps up from a fair DIY'er. Your not competent to go into people homes and start messing around with their electric installations. You can bleat on as much as you want, your not going to convince me or any other self respecting qualified electrician, that you can be taught to be so in 5 weeks or less!! End Of!!

 

[UNG]

Well said Engineer 54

The only defence these quick trained guys put up is they have found dodgy work by a "qualified spark" but as they consider themselves "qualified" how "qualified" were the sparks doing the dodgy installs and repairs and did the see the certs. There have been many cases were people have been doing work without any qualifications for so many years that they believe they have become qualified so it's not easy to judge with an inexperienced eye

 

[Selfmade]

These qualifications your

talking about here are supplementry/add-on qualifications, that shouldn't really be entered into without the core/fundemental qualifications such as 2360/2330 level 3. They certainly shouldn't be seen in any way shape or form, as a stand alone proof of any competencey for an electrician for gods sake!!

No they are not - I have taken these exams and the course materials and tuition leading to them certainly require no previous knowledge/experience/qualifications. There is an alternative to the Fundamental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification course which is intended for people with previous knowledge/experience/qualifications. You really should refrain from posting on topics you know nothing about.

Well

give me an indentured 5 year apprentice trained and fully work experienced electrician any day of the week over any electrical trainee. For all the JIB's /SJIB's faults, one thing is for sure you'll not find a single fast track electrical trainee or 17day Whizz Kidz with a JIB electricians card.
As for Part 'P' providers they are dead ducks, that have allowed you and others like you to enter our once proud industry and helped to systematically destroy it!!!

I could pass comment on the basis I suspect JIB cards and the like are awarded, but it would be edited, so I won't. As for your chosen employee, he's welcome to you.

You can make believe and convince yourself all you like, but in reality you are Only one or two steps up from a fair DIY'er. Your not competent to go into people homes and start messing around with their electric installations. You can bleat on as much as you want, your not going to convince me or any other self respecting qualified electrician, that you can be taught to be so in 5 weeks or less!! End Of!!

How much are you paid by your clandestine trade union to try to defame people for trying to make an honest living? You certainly seem to spend a lot of time on this forum for someone who claims to make a living at a job that takes you away from your computer.


The problem with people of your g*n*r*tion is that you are so selfish and greedy. You refuse to teach us the way you were taught, then when we find other ways of learning, at our own expense, you can't bare it. You just want all the work and money for yourselves. You are young, you can starve, that's your attitude. Well sorry, but I ain't gonna die willingly. And I ain't gonna stop taking a pride in the way I make my living.


One more thing - you should think carefully about the legal implications of accusing someone of incompetence without any actual evidence, when that person's livelihood depends on their reputation.


This will be my last post on this thread. I trust that your second use of the phrase ""End Of" means you feel the same way.

 

[happysteve]

This reply is not in response to any particular post, it's just summat to chuck in here. I can't comment on whether folks who've done these courses are adequately trained for the work they'll do or not. The following is mostly about labels.

"What is an electrician?"

Anyone heard of the "Wiring Matters" periodical? (Obviously, everyone has, I know it's just me. Bit slow on the uptake, sometimes). Published by the IET - those letters should at least be familiar! If the BGB is the "Electrician's Bible" then the IET must be Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Genuinely, had no idea this magazine existed. Is it well regarded by folks around here?

There's a 1 page article entitled "What is an electrican?" (issue 44, Autumn 2012), written by the CEO of the Joint Industries Board. He's fairly clear on what the answer is.

(There's also an article on earthing that mentions caravans...)

Maybe it's just semantics. Those with experience and qualifications in line with the article cited above, call yourselves electricians. Those with experience and qualifications that limit your expertise to fairly standard domestic situations, call yourselves domestic installers (or even domestic electrical installers). It doesn't have to be a derogatory title. Take pride in it, if you like. It accurately describes the majority of your work, I imagine? Or will someone (who's been there and done it) put me straight, can you go from one of these courses and competently work in a commercial or industrial environment?

Open questions and food for thought.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

no no no...the so called `electricians bible`...the BGB...is a guidance note...thats all....as we already know.....but you would be unwise to go against it...

in reality what we take from BS7671....we generally apply to the works we carry out...be that initial verification....or condition reporting....

the question still remains.....is someone who did one of these five week courses..competant to interpret BS7671?....and also capable to apply it to the works they carry out...

further more....they may possess common sense....but do they carry `electrical common sense`?

 

[Silly Sausage]

One more thing - you should think carefully about the legal implications of accusing someone of incompetence without any actual evidence.....

Glenn, protect me please! :smilielol5:

 

[Geordie Spark]

Glenn, protect me please! :smilielol5:

Hang a few cloves of garlic aroond yer neck - ye'll be fine.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Glenn, protect me please! :smilielol5:

i wouldn`t worry too much about him....
lets see him prove competancy in a court of law shall we....