Kitchen Cooker Isolation Switch, Dishwasher And Washing Machine Spurs

[sparkysean]

Hi i'm quoting for a job that involves:

• The moving of a cooker isolation switch
• The installation of extra single socket's for dishwasher, microwave, and hob

The cooker isolation switch is moving and needs to be extended around 2 metres, if possible I would like to have a single switch built into the switched unit. The cooker is 16A (3500W) . It's fed from a bs3036 30A fuse with a 6.0mm cable, estimated 25M cable length. The cooker unit has a built in microwave which will need a single unswitched socket. There is also an electric hob and dishwasher that will need single sockets. At the moment there is one switched spur above the worktop that feeds the washing machine. My client is getting his walls tiled so would prefer to have no switched spurs or have them hidden in cupboards, is this still allowed? Is it acceptable to incorporate the new single sockets into the ring and do away with the spurs altogether?

Any feedback would be great and also regs numbers always come in handy.

many thanks

 

[malcolmsanford]

Hi i'm quoting for a job that involves:

• The moving of a cooker isolation switch
• The installation of extra single socket's for dishwasher, microwave, and hob

The cooker isolation switch is moving and needs to be extended around 2 metres,Is there any issue with zoning to extending the cable.

if possible I would like to have a single switch built into the switched unit. That as lost me i'm afraid.

The cooker is 16A (3500W) . It's fed from a bs3036 30A fuse with a 6.0mm cable, estimated 25M cable length. Even though you are only moving the cable 2 metres if it is buried and unless you fit an earthed protection that cable will need to be RCd protected.

The cooker unit has a built in microwave which will need a single unswitched socket. Even if it's built into the cooker does it still need a separate supply.

There is also an electric hob and dishwasher that will need single sockets. will that hob be ok on just a 13amp socket

At the moment there is one switched spur above the worktop that feeds the washing machine. My client is getting his walls tiled so would prefer to have no switched spurs or have them hidden in cupboards, is this still allowed? There is no need to have FCU as a BS 1363 socket outlet can be used for isolation just as long as you leave it accessible. Yes you can fit it in a cuboard if that is the best option though not perhaps my first choice

Is it acceptable to incorporate the new single sockets into the ring and do away with the spurs altogether? Yes again though I would not want to put a hob, a dishwasher then perhaps kettle, toaster. etc on a single ring.

Any feedback would be great and also regs numbers always come in handy.

many thanks

As I'm sure you are aware as this is a kitchen the work is notifiable

 

[Octopus]

New consumer unit, dual RCD, add "visible" isolation switches for the accessories as its a requirement under the regs, and yes incorporate extra sockets into the ring. While you're at it I'd recommend that you replace most of the ring cable in the kitchen to do a thorough, professional job.

You don't mention the lights butif he's changing these too, they will need RCD protection.

Good luck.

 

[malcolmsanford]

To be honest Murdoch there is no reason to change the CU ad hoc. The customer wants a a few minor alterations which may entail wiring either a new ring final or Radial for the kitchen and a cooker point moved.

What maybe a few hundred pounds could turn out to be counter productive. Agree a new CU maybe safer but so might a complete rewire,where would you stop. IMO I would give the customer choices and advice, but at the end of the day, espicially in todays situation, a good safe job is the best way forward.

 

[sparkysean]

Thanks for the advice guys. So just to get this clear It HAS to have and RCD on the cooker circuit, and you don't HAVE to have FCU's for the hob, dishwasher, and microwave, there ok by law on a ring main.??

great responses

 

[malcolmsanford]

The cooker will not need to have RCD protection if it dosen't incorporate a socket outlet as per Regulation 411.3.3 in the CCU or the cable is installed as per regulation 522.6.6. As you said in original OP you are relocating it 2 metres and if your burying the cable, and not to the regulations then yes it will need RCD protecting. Though you may find that the manufacter will ask for RCD protection so then you will need to fit.

Though appendix 15 in the regs is deemed just informative it does advise that loads ie oven and hobs not to be connected on a ring final circuit, as your the designer then you will have to decide if you think having these loads on a ring final is ok. As I stated IMO it is not a very good design as you could overload the ring, and would rethink the installation.

 

[sparkysean]

Thanks again i've decided against the built in cooker socket and am just going to add an extra socket. I think i'll rebuild the ring and have fcu's in the cupboards near the appliances, cheers guys

 

[telectrix]

you could do away with FCUs and fit the appliance sockets in the cupboards adjacent to each appliance. as long as you've got local isolation. e.g. plug and socket is a means of isolation.

 

[sparkysean]

so if the sockets are in an accessable cupboards you need no spurs, but if they are hidden behind the units youn needs fcu's is that right.

p.s guys i'm just back from a 2 year stint in maintenance hence the lack of knowledge give me a month and i'll be fully up to scratch

 

[telectrix]

so if the sockets are in an accessable cupboards you need no spurs, but if they are hidden behind the units youn needs fcu's is that right.

p.s guys i'm just back from a 2 year stint in maintenance hence the lack of knowledge give me a month and i'll be fully up to scratch

it's all down to local accessible means of isolation. as long as the plug/socket is accessible..........

 

[malcolmsanford]

Really shouldn't hide a socket behind a cupboard as you need to get access to if for maintenance and testing. What some sparks do is have an unswitched single sockets behind a dishwasher or washing machine that are controlled from either an FCU or a 20amp double pole switch above the counter. In fact quite a few modern kitchens have a bank of 20amp double pole switches controlling single sockets under the counter, and they look quite smart.

If you have an accessible socket. ie one you can un plug without dismantling the kitchen or heaving out washing machines then yes there is no need for a FCU or switch.

 

[sparkysean]

when i was installing them about two years ago it was perfectly acceptable to have no fcu and a single socket behind the unit, is this still ok? if it is i will do this

 

[sparkysean]

thanks to you all

 

[Octopus]

when i was installing them about two years ago it was perfectly acceptable to have no fcu and a single socket behind the unit, is this still ok? if it is i will do this

Single socket behind the unit - no, single socket with plug "accessible" yes, however the interpretation of accessible is contencious!

 

[telectrix]

also, with a lot of appliances, esp. the integrated ones, there's insufficient room behind them for a plug/socket. and if socket is behind a heavy washing machine it is not accessible. imagine if the machine caught fire, would you wrestle with it to unplug with your short and curlies smouldering. i think not.

 

[SimpleSimon]

What's the power outage of the hob?could you put that on the cooker circuit?

 

[domestic spark]

Thanks again i've decided against the built in cooker socket and am just going to add an extra socket. I think i'll rebuild the ring and have fcu's in the cupboards near the appliances, cheers guys

i have heard fusespurs have to be installed in the fabric of the building.

 

[malcolmsanford]

This is the start of another thread, and what constitutes the fabric of the building.

 

[domestic spark]

walls of the building

 

[malcolmsanford]

What about dry-lining .........................what about stud partioning...........................

 

[domestic spark]

saw it mentioned on a thread, although i cant find it?

What about dry-lining .........................what about stud partioning........................... covered in the terms of fabric i guess.

no solid proof mate! IF SOMEONE IN THE FORUM KNOWS OF THIS RULE OR HAS SOLID REGULATION NUMBERS, WOULD BE KINDLY APPRECIATED? MAYBE ITS A QUESTION I SHOULD POST ON A NEW THREAD ME THINKS??? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
​

 

[malcolmsanford]

There is no solid proof ..................what constitutes the fabric of a building. A stud partion wall start off as a lump of 4x2 screwed into the wall, floor and ceiling , you then stud and baton it out and fit plasterboard to it, and more than likely you fit sockets and light switches into it, so why would that be any more part of the fabric of the builiding than a kitchen base unit secured to the wall.

Providing the FCU is secure and not liable to damage, then it is acceptable, though IMO not the best way to install an accessory.

 

[domestic spark]

Exactly. NOT THE BEST WAY. said it yourself. maybe im just to prim and proper. I WOULDNT DO IT. fix accessories in units and to sides of cupboards. and i wont be slated for it either.

 

[Chr!s]

530.4.2

 

[malcolmsanford]

I don't think anyone would slate you for it, why would they.

 

[Chr!s]

Bs 7671 offers no definition on fabric of a building, does that mean we need to mount them on curtains

 

[malcolmsanford]

530.4.2

My BRB is in the office mate is that the reg appertaining to accessories installed on to the fabric of a building

 

[domestic spark]

Bs 7671 offers no definition on fabric of a building, does that mean we need to mount them on curtains

meaning?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Bs 7671 offers no definition on fabric of a building, does that mean we need to mount them on curtains

So for discussion purposes you would consider a stud partion wall as fabric of a building but not a base unit fixed to the wall Chr!s

 

[domestic spark]

malcolm any idea what chris is on about?

 

[domestic spark]

did i miss the boat?

 

[Chr!s]

My BRB is in the office mate is that the reg appertaining to accessories installed on to the fabric of a building

Yes malcolm that the reg

 

[domestic spark]

5.2.2 (i) should pref be mounted on the building fabric, and not in kitchen furniture. BANG!

 

[Chr!s]

malcolm any idea what chris is on about?

If i dont know what im going on about hows malcolm going yo know

 

[domestic spark]

5.2.2 (i) should pref be mounted on the building fabric, and not in kitchen furniture. BANG!​

 

[Chr!s]

5.2.2 (i) should pref be mounted on the building fabric, and not in kitchen furniture. BANG!

5.2.2 (i)?

Only Pref

 

[domestic spark]

CURTAINS chuckle chuckle

 

[malcolmsanford]

If i dont know what im going on about hows malcolm going yo know

lol....................like it. Wire It I appreciate your stance on this, and in many ways I agree, but that is your opinion and good on you for it. But fitting a FCU or a DP switch in a cupboard is accepted, if not the best practice and is done in many installations.

The bottom line to it is that as a designer you would not do it, as a designer I would not do it either, but if someone decides that it is the only option open to them then yes you can do it, as your interpreting that base unit secured to the wall as part of the fabric of the building. If the base unit caught fire then as the designer you would need to explain why you thought that was the best way to install it.

Put it another way, if you were doing a PIR would you code it?

 

[domestic spark]

i see what your saying and its been a good conversation i think wouldnt you agree, it was knocking around my head and im glad we could talk about it. YES, if i was designing it, and it was a NEW install i wouldnt do it.

HOWEVER, if 2 weeks later it became apparent something wasd missed off, and you did not want to damage cosmetics of the job, CUPBOARD all the way!!

 

[domestic spark]

and to be honest i prob wouldnt!

 

[Chr!s]

IEE Guidance note 1

C.2.5 Permanently connected equipment

Reg (537.5.1.3)

Permanently connected equipment such as built in washing machines, electric ovens,etc, is often connected to the supply by means of a plug and socket outlet located behind the appliance. A separate control switch need not to be installed provided that:

1. A functional switch is incorporated in the appliance, and the appliance is locally protected by a fuse to BS 1362, of a rating not exceeding 13 A, or

2. The circuit is protected by a circuit breaker of a rating not exceeding 16 A.

Regards chris

 

[malcolmsanford]

Yes and Chr!s is right that the definitive part of the reg is the word preferable, it's giving you the chance as the designer to install in a safe manor, but as you say sometimes you have to perhaps interpret things a little different.

 

[domestic spark]

IEE Guidance note 1

C.2.5 Permanently connected equipment

Reg (537.5.1.3)

Permanently connected equipment such as built in washing machines, electric ovens,etc, is often connected to the supply by means of a plug and socket outlet located behind the appliance. A separate control switch need not to be installed provided that:

1. A functional switch is incorporated in the appliance, and the appliance is locally protected by a fuse to BS 1362, of a rating not exceeding 13 A, or

2. The circuit is protected by a circuit breaker of a rating not exceeding 16 A. a dedicated circuit. ie, fridge freezer

Regards chris

....................

 

[domestic spark]

anyway goodnight chaps! its been emotional!