Lights and heights

[lofty84]

is there anything that says you cannot work above a certain height unless on a tower or scissor lift for example. The reason I ask is becasue im not that great with heights and unfortunately working at height is what the majority of my new job is. Im talkling 20ft plus up on a A frame ladder. To say I am ****ting myself is an understatment, I just hope I can get use to it lol. On occasions I will be expected to change 400w ballasts whilst at the top and these are pretty heavy, tewn spot lights are on the menu two which are even heavier and one is going to have to hold it up with one hand whilst screwing it in with another. basically I wont be holding on.

My next question if I may, whilst at the top of this a frame I am haveing to take down these lights that clip on to a light track system. The idea is to turn them of on there switch which has a 1 setting 2 setting 3 setting and off setting and then unclip them, take them back down the A frame and change the lamp inside them or take out the guts and put in new lighter ones because the heat destroys them, when i go back up with me new light and clip it in to the light rail and turn it onto settings 1,2,3 from the off position, there is enarf a scary arching noise happening. I know I should be messing about with this if I dont no what im doing but ive never had any exerience with commecial stuff and I just wanna reasure myself im not about to get electrocuted whilst clinging on to a metal A fram 20ft in the air.

 

[lofty84]

I accidentally did this as a double post but it looks like the one with all the replies and words of advise has gone. Was hoping to read a few more replies

 

[VoltzElectrical]

you really shoudn't be that high up on a ladder like that doing that kind of double handed work.

You should be doing a risk assessment and choosing the most appropriate elevated platform, in this case a tower scaffold probably. You'll really ought to have done the proper PASMA training to erect it within your company's insurance parameters.

Someone is opening themselves up to a whole world of pain here, and that someone will definitely include YOU>

20 foot up in the air on an a- frame ladder changing heavy light fittings double handed?

madness!

 

[mogga]

RISK Assesment an you have 3 points of contact at ALL times answer from your post would be NO so scaffold it would be A frames are ok but the bigger they are the more unstable they are and personaly I wouldnt fancy working from one without having a hand holding on

 

[VoltzElectrical]

who is 'expecting' you here? If you are employed, then you should have been briefed in the company's H&S policy (it's law to have one if 5 or more employed). However, you are still bound by the Health and Safety at work act to work safely, and stop others working unsafely.

What you are doing is unsafe, and possibly illegal.

 

[Andy78]

At this height you should definately be on a rig/scaffold. If this is your employer's main sort of work then he should invest in a movable platform.
Have a look at this http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf Working at height regs

Point 14 employer must do all that is reasonably practicable to prevent falls
Point 15 employer must select equipment to prevent falls when working at height

 

[telectrix]

agree with voltz. sheer madness. i have been on sites where H&S have insisted on mini towers to reach an 8' suspended ceiling. even my 4 tread steps were banned. 20' is stupid.

 

[Plonker 3]

Like what everyone else has said, if you don't feel comfortable don't do it. Ask to see the safe system of work for the job as that should cover everything that needs to be in place for that task.

 

[robsparky1975]

Why have they not put you down for a working at heights course,the thing that springs to mind is that ladders are for access,scaffolds/platforms are from working from,you need to be safe while working,so if you slip off the ladder and the worst happens,then both you and your employer are in the doodoo,but more so you,have a talk with your guvnor,it is not worth risking yourself to save someone a few quid on a job,years ago i used to work from the same type ladders and yes i came down on my shins,ouch lesson learned there(still have the scar)they should really price these access equiptment into there jobs.

 

[lofty84]

seriously appreciate all of the advise guys, I wont lie I absolutely brick it up there. Im ok on high steps that you see in sports shops but these A frames are seriously high. I am going to take a look at that link in a second. Does the responsibilty end from his part if I work for him on a self employeed basis, at the moment I am paid via the agency but I sure I will soon be paid direct by him but again as a self employed employee if that makes sense.


Does anyone have any comments on the second question. In future im going to insist on isolateing the racks that feed the RX7s becasue the noise is proper concerning. I think I will be told that I cant do that as the customer cannot see. what shall I say to that?

 

[Plonker 3]

Lofty if you are not happy doing what you are asked say so to who ever you are working for, Health and safety is every ones responsibility. At worse walk away as you can always get another job, or even contact H&S yourself for guidance.

 

[Strima]

Agency or not, he's your employer and is required by law to provide a safe working environment and equipment.

 

[Andy 7671]

Hmmm,

Under no pressure here, talking hypothetics...

Towers have to be dismantled to 4metres..12 feet, then moved from fitting to fitting..yuk.

Scissor lift or if space is limited boom, access company can advise. You can get protective boots if your scared of scuffing floor, youll need IPAF card.

Done similar, cliks and 600x600 modular off A frames in stairwells or where access equipment isnt practical.

I think your saving your boss a fortune and putting your own life at risk.

All lights are on one circuit and no emergency/essential/ managers route circuits,

Grid ceiling 20ft up...? What is this building.

Ive never done it but maybe a call to HSE to clarify your options might be in order.

Seriously I know we all want the work but if you dont get a safe system of work in place walk away....please.

 

[lofty84]

Im leaveing myself well open to getting the boot but it is for all the sports direct stores in the south, some of them in retial parks are mosterously high. From what I can gather sports direct will not pay for a scissor lift unless 40% of the lights are out, if one or two are out then we are expected to go up and fix em, if its a simple bulb change fair enough but even then its scary stuff when your not a monkey.

Im not sure about the lights all being on one circuit. how do i upload pics as i have taken some which might show how high things are

 

[trev]

Yet another reason to hate Mike Ashley hehe

 

[Plonker 3]

. From what I can gather sports direct will not pay for a scissor lift unless 40% of the lights are out, if one or two are out then we are expected to go up and fix em, if its a simple bulb change fair enough but even then its scary stuff when your not a monkey.

I wouldn't work for someone who accepted that stipulation in a contract.

 

[Plonker 3]

This isn't about costing its simple heath and safety, if your not happy say so. I know it sounds like a broken record, but better that is broken than yourself

 

[Marvo]

I have a rule that's always served me well. If I'm not comfortable with a job for any reason I won't do it. I don't care what weight rating or height rating it says on the access equipment or in the safety manual, I don't care what the project manager or structural engineer says, if I have valid reservations I owe it to myself to make any necessary changes without concerns of costs or peer pressure until I'm comfortable with the work environment.

 

[lofty84]

Personally I would sooner start at 4 in the morning on the shop floor with the scissor lift that lives in the yard. I think I am going to have to see where I stand with the HSE. Ive just got use to the 60 hr weeks but I cant see myself getting better with heights. I seriously do no know why there isnt a system where you can lower a group of lights at the same time. in principle imagine 3 bamboo caines going one way with thre overlapping ontop going the other way. the lights could be hanged of of this and this could then be lowwered with a pully or something

 

[Guest111]

one of my ex bosses tried something similar with me once,wanted 30 odd 8 foot twin florry,s changing in a school gym off an a frame ladder on my own empty school nobody but me.told him no and he said lads used them for relamping and I was being difficult, no interest in health and safety whatsoever,he ended up having an accident involving a fire exit and flight of steps,again due to lack of risk assesment,he failed to asses the risks involved with being abusive to me which resulted in my fist making contact with his face which caused him to hit the door which opened causing him to fall down about 4 steps.If nothing else it taught him the importance of proper risk assesment.

 

[trev]

he ended up having an accident involving a fire exit and flight of steps,again due to lack of risk assesment,he failed to asses the risks involved with being abusive to me which resulted in my fist making contact with his face which caused him to hit the door which opened causing him to fall down about 4 steps.If nothing else it taught him the importance of proper risk assesment.

See, positive proof that slips, trips and falls are dangerous

 

[plugsandsparks]

I'm with Marvo on this. Believe me most of the sparkies i have met don't like heights either. I have had to change the guts out of these and even with a cherry picker its hard work to change whole fittings or the heavy ballast on your own. Believe me there is no special breed out there that has the grace of a cat and the strength of a gorilla, which is what you need to do what you are proposing on a step ladder. FWIW, my limit on a ladder against a solid wall, is 6M and even then i do not remove the whole fitting (taking security lights) i take the guts out and fix the unit on the floor and then replace it. Anything else is tower, scissor or cherry picker. .... step ladder - never considered it.
I have seen some painters operate at higher levels but the weight of a paint brush is not too difficult and there's little chance of getting a belt.
Suggest - get the management to demonstrate how it should be done

 

[Andy 7671]

Yeah, got you, and the moving of all the clothes, jeez them places are packed with merchandise.

Tower I guess then, although to be fair I can see his reason for A frames, still didnt like them myself too much.

DB schedule or your boss should look for you, check if there are time clocks as well, guess all this takes time and your boss is rush rush rush.

Guess its your call in the end, sorry if that sounds harsh, let us know what your boss says, if you are not happy bin it.

 

[mogga]

seriously appreciate all of the advise guys, I wont lie I absolutely brick it up there. Im ok on high steps that you see in sports shops but these A frames are seriously high. I am going to take a look at that link in a second. Does the responsibilty end from his part if I work for him on a self employeed basis, at the moment I am paid via the agency but I sure I will soon be paid direct by him but again as a self employed employee if that makes sense.


Does anyone have any comments on the second question. In future im going to insist on isolateing the racks that feed the RX7s becasue the noise is proper concerning. I think I will be told that I cant do that as the customer cannot see. what shall I say to that?

Basicaly he is using your uncertainty of having and keeping a job as a lever to "persuade" you into carrying out your work in
1 an unsafe manner
2 the manner that will cost him least outlay for plant
3 another agency monkey will do as they are told
4 it would save getting staff to WORK instead of SELL SELL SELL
as for isolating the tracks thats a must as you would have to hold the rack to plug the lights in and may touch something
Clients 5 mins inconvienence Your Life Your Choice

 

[trev]

Lofty, here's a question for you mate.
How do you think your wife/girlfriend/kids/dad etc would want you to do the job?
Off a big ladder or some other way?

 

[Guest111]

RISK Assesment an you have 3 points of contact at ALL times answer from your post would be NO so scaffold it would be A frames are ok but the bigger they are the more unstable they are and personaly I wouldnt fancy working from one without having a hand holding on

By the sound of it the clown this guy works for would probably say "well 2 feet on ladder, teeth round trunking = 3 points of contact so where,s the problem?"

 

[plugsandsparks]

Thought of another way, BTW - i have just made this up. Install a trapeze wire at high level and the hook your harness onto it, ha ha i cannot get the image out of my head of someone hanging in the middle of the store with no way of getting down..... perhaps not then

 

[lofty84]

I like the gang im with but dont think the boss has my safety in mind . I cant wait to use a few of the lines in many of the posts on the team im working with (who are really nice blokes) as it will get back to the boss.

I have another question and accept im gonna be ripped apart but hopefully someone will be able to tell me what happened and thus I will have learnt something.

Basically I had to install a timer which would power the front of shop lights an hour after opening and an hour after closing and then they would turn of. I was told by the previous spark who worked in the store what breaker it was and set about isolating it. I took out the cable from the 16 amp breaker (red) and put it in a choc block, at the other end of the choc block i attaced a length of 2.5 brown and this went into the back of the timer L out. I then took another length of 2.5 brown cable and ran it from L in back into the breaker. I was told to then run a neautral from anywhere on the neautral bar to the N terminal in the back of the timer (I chose the nbeautral bar that was on the side that my breaker was on. and finally I put a cpc from the back of the timer cpc squere teminal to the earth bar again on the same side as the breaker. I turnt it on and bang there was a bright flash and all the lights and tills went down. after finding all the breakers which had tripped (in another board on another floor) power was restored but the timer was disconected and never installed. On the way home I was trying to think what had happened as I had followed the advise from the other sparky. The only thing I could think of was that there must have obcviously been another Neuatral and earth from the original red cable which was in the 16 amp breaker and this must have meant what was going out on the live wasnt coming back on the neautral as it had been split with two neautral cables if that makes sense, but then I thought that it wouldnt matter as they would have been on the same neutral bar ( I say the same but this was not proved) dodgy i know

 

[lofty84]

Thought of another way, BTW - i have just made this up. Install a trapeze wire at high level and the hook your harness onto it, ha ha i cannot get the image out of my head of someone hanging in the middle of the store with no way of getting down..... perhaps not then

IF anyone remember gladiators, there was a game where they ran around on a figure of 8 track in the ceiling. I thought this idea could be applied to this problem where one clips themself into a track and scurrys allong inbetween the rows of lights. it then dawned om me you would have to climb high up the ladder to the roof to clip urself into it

 

[alarm man]

I like the gang im with but dont think the boss has my safety in mind .

you could put that on your headstone...if you do work in those conditions your as bad as the so called boss...cowboys....absolute joke..

 

[Andy78]

Look at it this way Lofty ( lol good name for one who hates heights ) If you were meant to follow orders blindly, take stupid risks by working unsafely at height, and work all the hours in the week, God would have made you a sign fitter.

 

[lofty84]

Does anyone know where all the replies from my other post about this have gone as I cant find them

 

[lofty84]

bump for post 28

 

[plugsandsparks]

bump for post 28

sorry no idea, suggest start again and make no assumptions

 

[D80]

20 foot up on A frames? I could maybe just about stomach that to do a simple lamp change, and wouldn't fancy lifting the A Frames between lights either. Is adrenalin brown?

Worst I ever did was on a Scaffold about 8M up, with the platform right at the top. Well when I say did I mean I hugged the platform almost for grim death handing tools to my mate as the lights got changed.I don't like heights at all, but 3 points of contact and I am reasonable ok, or surrounded by them like in a properly erected scaffold or a scissor lift.

If they want to get someone to do that job that way they will, but as you're uncomfortable with doing it I try and get better access equipment.

 

[Marvo]

Does anyone know where all the replies from my other post about this have gone as I cant find them

I can only see this one which is about the same job I assume but it's not a duplicate.

If there was a duplicate thread and it had no (constructive) replies it may have been deleted. If there was a duplicate thread and there were replies on both threads then they would have been merged.

You may have gathered by the long winded explanation I'm actually not sure where your other thread went

 

[lofty84]

Does anyone feel they can advise me about post 28 I think I nearly killed meself and wouldn't mind knowing why

 

[lofty84]

Basically I had to install a timer which would power the front of shop lights an hour after opening and an hour after closing and then they would turn of. I was told by the previous spark who worked in the store what breaker it was and set about isolating it. I took out the cable from the 16 amp breaker (red) and put it in a choc block, at the other end of the choc block i attaced a length of 2.5 brown and this went into the back of the timer L out. I then took another length of 2.5 brown cable and ran it from L in back into the breaker. I was told to then run a neautral from anywhere on the neautral bar to the N terminal in the back of the timer (I chose the nbeautral bar that was on the side that my breaker was on. and finally I put a cpc from the back of the timer cpc squere teminal to the earth bar again on the same side as the breaker. I turnt it on and bang there was a bright flash and all the lights and tills went down. after finding all the breakers which had tripped (in another board on another floor) power was restored but the timer was disconected and never installed. On the way home I was trying to think what had happened as I had followed the advise from the other sparky. The only thing I could think of was that there must have obcviously been another Neuatral and earth from the original red cable which was in the 16 amp breaker and this must have meant what was going out on the live wasnt coming back on the neautral as it had been split with two neautral cables if that makes sense, but then I thought that it wouldnt matter as they would have been on the same neutral bar ( I say the same but this was not proved

 

[plugsandsparks]

still have no idea

 

[lofty84]

as in you or me plugs

 

[Richard Burns]

Not sure what type of timer you are talking about but was it a 24V timer?
Did you connect the lines to coil terminals not input output terminals?
Not often you have an earth if it was Din rail mounted, are you sure it was a CPC terminal?

 

[D80]

What other breakers had tripped?

 

[plugsandsparks]

Was saying i cannot understand what went wrong. Lets have a look at the timer to see what coonections are available, can you post up the timer details, e.g. make and model, preferably with a schematic. It should not be hard to wire up but obviously something wentg wrong, big time. Cannot help until i can see what you are trying to do with the timer you have used.
It may be simply that you have wired it wrong and caused a direct short but don't know without seeing it.

 

[lofty84]

Guys I'm in desperate need of advise on what to say to the guy I'm working with. I can't get it through to his thick head that I want to isolate the supply to the light track as this arcing once I've taken the fitting down and changed the bulb and turn the thin back on could kill me. His answer is well I've never been bitten in 2 years but trust me it's sounds dodgy as ----, I'm only 3 meter up in the air today so not as bad as the usual 5 meters and I'm a least working of a pair of steps instead of a dodgy a frame. The **** is a lovely bloke I really mean that but he is not big on safety. His reasons for not turning the light track of is the customers won't be able to see the trainers I say well I might die just so they can see the trainers but he is adamant the track is staying on even tho I'm the ****ing sparky. I don't wanna walk from the job as it is such easy money but we are constantly argueing over this cos I wanna be safe and he doesn't want to risk the lights going of so the customer can't see and also there's a risk they won't come back on and we will need to rebuild the guts of which we don't have enough. My answer is let's load more on the van I don't gIve a shi if it takes longer and I have to work harder but he is all for the easy life. Before I chin him can someone help me word putting across my point. Ps he is dumb as **** so it need to be for dummies

From the bottom of my heart thanks ..... Absolutely raring haha

 

[lofty84]

Ps as soon as I get the chance to get a pic of the timer I will post it up Mate

 

[Strima]

Get him to have a read of this, about safe isolation:

http://www.select.org.uk/downloads/publications/Select%20-%20Safe%20Isolation%20Procedures.pdf

 

[Knobhead]

Before answering, have a look at the date of tho posts.