MCS Quality Management System

[solarpowerwales]

hi all, just joined the site. we all seem to be in the same boat, im looking into booking myself on a quality management seminar too get assistence with the criteria of passing the pv assesment, can anyone one give me further advice and if the have experienced it and if they belive it has been worth it, many thanks

 

[Treadwarm]

hi all, just joined the site. we all seem to be in the same boat, im looking into booking myself on a quality management seminar too get assistence with the criteria of passing the pv assesment, can anyone one give me further advice and if the have experienced it and if they belive it has been worth it, many thanks

Hi there, this mcs stuff is certainly a bit of a task to say the least. Well I went on a seminar that cost £75 (+ a day not working as I am self employed) it did give me a knoledge of what mcs is and a stack of templates for my qms but when I sat down to but the bespoke qms together I was still miles from the standard required. I eventually called a company called easy mcs in Chester and they produced my qms for me and mentored me through the standard all for £495. When you take into consideration that I would of failed my assesment with the pack I started putting together + a re-assesment fee i started thinking this should of Been my first route instead of the seminar. Well worth giving them a bell.

 

[Treadwarm]

Also they pointed me in the right direction for the 0% loan to gain mcs as I was in Wales.

 

[solarpowerwales]

Thanks treadwarm, something to consider

 

[DomB]

Hi, just to say we're with NAPIT and they have an MCS / QMS template that we're just working through now - it includes things like templated Excel sheets for document registers etc etc. We're looking to customise it to our way of working ready for our MCS assessment mid Jan

 

[Treadwarm]

To be honest when I started putting mine together I worked out it would take me about two / three weeks and it may still fail. I just liked the thought that for £495 I could have someone do it for me that knows the standards and guarrantees an office based pass. It meant I could get on with installing and making money. If I missed three days work because I was working on my qms then I would of lost the same amount of income as the cost of the pack.

 

[solarpowerwales]

just to go off the subject how ae you guys going to to be assesed, what i mean is you first job that you will be assesed on. its not a good selling point to a customer that there house will be the first one you do etc, or you going to install on a friends or family house, cheers

 

[Treadwarm]

You don't have to actually do an installation yourself, if you know of someone who has done an installation you could use this as an example to show the assesor. You build your project pack and hand over pack around this installation as if you have completed it from initial enquiry to calcs to commissioning. The assesor will be able to see that you understand the installation process and audit you in 12 months to ensure you are doing it correctly.

 

[solarpowerwales]

cheers treadwarm, do you have any info i.e paperwork you fill in on commisioning etc, my pv course is in 2 weeks just want to get the best understanding i can before the course starts. i always feel they rush these courses. if you have anythinbg that you may feel will benifit me could you send me them to [email protected]. diolch..

 

[Treadwarm]

If I am honest mate I am still in the early stages myself and will be looking to get my training course booked in jan myself . If I can give any advice it would be to speak to your certification body or easy mcs before you book your course I went on one that cost me £300 and I had no practical training what so ever. Like with anything u have good and bad courses but easy mcs reccomended me on to one just need to get it booked.

 

[SolarCity]

You don't have to actually do an installation yourself, if you know of someone who has done an installation you could use this as an example to show the assesor. You build your project pack and hand over pack around this installation as if you have completed it from initial enquiry to calcs to commissioning. The assesor will be able to see that you understand the installation process and audit you in 12 months to ensure you are doing it correctly.

Who told you this? It is my understanding that the installation has to be completed entirely by the applicant.

 

[Markc]

You don't have to actually do an installation yourself, if you know of someone who has done an installation you could use this as an example to show the assesor. You build your project pack and hand over pack around this installation as if you have completed it from initial enquiry to calcs to commissioning. The assesor will be able to see that you understand the installation process and audit you in 12 months to ensure you are doing it correctly.

I think I would be very sceptical of this. Who is the accreditation body offering this, i.e, NIC, Napit, Corgi etc? How can they asses YOU for your installation if YOU haven't done it? Can you clarify this?

 

[Treadwarm]

I have worked closely with corgi and NIC EIC and have been the nominee for three companies who have hired myself as the MCS quality representative to gain MCS. The MCS standard does not specifically state that you physically need to do the installation even to the point that you can use a sub contractor to complete the work ( as long as the complete a sub contractor agreement form, outlining that they will work the relevant technology standard). MCS covers the knowledge and capability of an individual or company to both calculate and document all sections of a project and company procedure to ensure they work to the standards required. During your assessment 80% of the day will be spent on your QMS a collection is specific procedures documenting the procedures of your business and the capabilities you have to design / specify the equipment you are looking to supply / install. During this time they will also ask to see a project pack specific to the installation you will be showing them. Finally they will visit the site with you and ask questions relevant to the MCS product standard to ensure you are aware of the specific points on the installation. Trust me I have done this three times and passed first time each time. I also have worked closely with easy MCS the largest MCS preparation inspection company in the UK.

Any questions please feel free to ask I am here to help

 

[Treadwarm]

Sorry about some of the spelling in the above reply, I sent it from my phone and it reads a little poor.

 

[SolarCity]

I have to say if this is true then I am totally staggered.

A firm can gain MCS accreditation, which is effectively a sign that a firm excels at installing PV systems, even if a firm has NEVER even installed a single system?!

What next? A driving license issued to someone that has never driven?

 

[Treadwarm]

Hi Biggs, this is a common mistake with MCS, it does not stand for excellence of installation of renewable technologies. It actually covers the fact that you are compotent to design and specify correctly and record the information in a professional manner. Also this leads into the competent person scheme to sign of your own work . But don't think that anybody could gain MCS as you must be able to prove that you are competent to install your chosen equipment, ensuring you have the knowledge and capability to design / specify the kit, taking into account wind loads etc. If all these elements are covered then you can be sure that as long as the correct kit turns up then any roofer or part p spark can screw some panels to the roof.

 

[MorganPVI]

As unbelieveable as it sounds I think Treadwarm maybe right, technically. The MCS is more about assessing the buisness and procedures, very much like ISO9001. I worked for 4 years for in a ISO9001 (and other high quality systems) business and have had more quality assements than hot dinners, in all those years and inspections, not once did the assesor want to see actual work carried out or even equipment on the bench. The nearest he got to the workshops was checking calibration stickers on multimeters and complaining we had resistors stored next to capcitors.

I suppose you could well pass the MCS if you had a sub-contractor round to do the install - after all the subby is there on behalf of the company and any problems the solar company is ultimately resonsible as prime contractor.

Shame if the MCS is only a paperwork exercise, i'd be worried about new firms springing up with at least the experience of one proven and assesed install. I'm sure alot of people could desgin and specify a suitable system after going on a course, but it's a different ball game installing some one elses desgin.

 

[SolarCity]

The MCS is supposed to give consumers the assurance that a company meets a certain set of strict standards. I'd have thought the actual installation of the equipment is a pretty vital aspect of these standards. Otherwise I'd argue pretty strongly that the whole MCS scheme is as much use as a chocolate saucepan.

I don't mean to get all 'Daily Mail' here but this country fills me with despair at times, it really does.

 

[Markc]

So along these lines and as a MCS company would it be correct to say the REAL (or alike) scheme would expect the MCS company to state to the proposed customer that they, as the MCS company, do not install the system and they use sub contractors to do the installation?

I have to say I'm with Biggs here! What a mockery it makes of the entire procedures! When I achieved MCS though the NIC I had to of had TWO systems installed. No where in the NIC literature does it state that these can be installed by others. When we were assessed our two installations where checked (Not as toughly as I was expecting) but nether the less still inspected. Labels, cable routes, gen meter location etc. If this was installed by others how can it be assessed against a company who hasn't installed it?

 

[Treadwarm]

I have deleted my last post as I hope the explanation below gives a better account of the situation

I hope I have not mislead anybody via my posts above, Morgan123 is perfectly correct and the MCS scheme does require you to operate in a manner similar to ISO9001 ( which I think we all agree is a good thing???). in addition to this the company must show that a senior member of staff e.g Technical director has the ability to install the products ( this covers mounting the panels correctly) and design the electrical feeds & inverter section of the system ( this is nearly impossible without 17th edition and experience on site) in addition the technical representative must be able to show they can calculate wind loads etc. (basically give a good understanding of a working PV system).

If you have all this in place then you are capable of not only completing the installation to mcs standard but also of ensuring a system is installed to these standards which bring in the sub contractor section.

So for instance you are an M&E consultant looking to gain MCS to be able to check and ensure installation are to MCS standard and that your customers are eligible for MCS. so you gain your MCS by ensuring you have the following.

A high understanding of a Quality Management System which includes similar standards to ISO9001 but in addition have specific procedures for the product(s) you are working with. ( I got mine from easy mcs in chester)

Technical ability to complete the installation : ability to design, install and commission the system.

PROBLEM: Your technical director iS 50 years old and can't bend like he use to, what do you do????

You sub-contract in a fully qualified electrician carrying 17th etc and ask him to sign a sub contractor agreement form, this form must state that the installer will work to the standards set out in the relevant mcs standard (e.g MIS3002 ). Once he has completed the installation you as the MCS accredited company would asses the installation to ensure all the standards have been met. Once you are confident with that all the paperwork, design & installation are up to the standard you can apply for your assessment. they will check as you have that all the sections are up to standard.

Yes at this point you as the MCS accredited company have not physically screw a panel to the roof but doing this is not rocket science and you / the customer is safe in the knowledge that the system has been designed by an MCS approved installer which is specific to the technology they are having. and in addition to this a fully qualified spark has fitted the system into the grid so once again everybody feels alot more confident.

I don't want you to think just anybody could gain MCS, I can assure you that if you do not have the technical ability to do the installation then you will not gain MCS. But you can use sub contractors to en-sure work is done quickly and professionally but you as the technical rep will have to asses the installation for compliance and commission prior to logging onto the mcs list.

Ok, so with all this in mind we go back to using someone else's installation to gain your MCS, this covers the same rules as above you must have all the technical ability and professionalism to both complete the installation and document it correctly. you must prove this during your assessment by showing your calculations / certificates of training and competency etc. Once you can prove to the assessor you can cover all these sections and trust me you will be tested on it then you will be granted MCS. f they come back in twelve months time to audit you and you are not working to these standards you will have your MCS taken from you (I have seen this happen).

in conclusion yes you can gain MCS without actually fitting the equipment but you must prove you are capable of fitting the equipment if required.

sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear but I hope this helps people looking to get into mcs and doesn't rattler the cages of to many of you who are already MCS ( i am only stating the facts )