Moving A Socket A Few Feet

[NickD]

Client wants (indoor, domestic) socket moved a matter of a few feet, assuming cable is not to be buried in wall, would you say for regs compliance socket must be RCD protected? I know the answer is liable to be yes because it's adding a new socket and decommissioning the old, but just wanted to pick some more experienced brains. I'm aware if the cable isn't buried I could just install a socket with integral RCD if the client is willing. Realistically they may go for the cowboy installer who'll just move the socket and not even worry about RCDs. :sad:

 

[Hawkmoon]

411.3.3 bgb (not just the burying issue)

 

[NickD]

Yeah, that's my point, I know that a new socket I install has to be RCD protected. But not if replacing an existing one (as I understand it). If I could say I'm replacing an existing one only three feet to the left then no RCD required. But I don't think I can say I'm replacing an existing one if it's three feet to the left, correct?

 

[Plonker 3]

Well no, because it's non existent at the minue. That's a bit like doing a rewire without RCDs as they had sockets and lights previously.

 

[NickD]

Well no, because it's non existent at the minute.

Yeah. Dammit. The angel on one shoulder is telling me it's a new socket and I can't not RCD protect it, the demon on the other is jumping up and down yelling for ****'s sake it's just the same socket being moved three feet to the left. But I know I'm going to listen to the angel. Dunno why I'm asking really. Plus I know I'd be totally up Poo Street if I moved it and documented it, and it wasn't RCD protected and he electrocuted himself from it. Bloody demon. Cheers guys.

 

[Hawkmoon]

I definitely would RCD protect it and also inform the customer that it is the only socket in the house that is safe for outside use (assuming no other RCD)

 

[D Skelton]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

If the rich guy however still got DIY Dan in to do the work after I quoted to do it properly, I wouldn't lose any sleep whatsoever!

 

[telectrix]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

a case of common sense prevailing here.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

Agreed, there's always those situations that warrant 'judgement' - guess I prefer to answer questions by the book because you never really know the questioner's level of competence when it comes to 'realistically applying the regs'

 

[D Skelton]

Agreed, there's always those situations that warrant 'judgement' - guess I prefer to answer questions by the book because you never really know the questioner's level of competence when it comes to 'realistically applying the regs'

I can't agree nor disagree with this statement, but what I will say is that the BGB is not statutory, and there are going to be the odd occasions where following it by the letter would be absolutely pointless. This is my get out clause.

BTW, I must make clear that I am not the sort of person that throws this at someone every time they question something in the regs, they should be followed!*












































*In 99.99% of cases

 

[Darkwood]

You are making an alteration and as such you need it to comply to the 17th, changing a socket front does not constitute making an alteration or addition thus not subject to the requirement although a verbal recommendation would be my route if not a note with the invoice as to suggest for added personal protection you recommend updating the circuit.

As for your situation yes you must fit RCD coer and price for it, if you explain it well i cannot see a customer letting a cowboy in who doesn't bother fitting an RCD... it all depends on how you address this issue with the customer, if you explain that they require it to meet regulations and it gives a degree of personal protection and then say less scrupulous types may do this a lot cheaper without bothering to fit an RCD cover which is contravening Regulation and leaves your socket wired under a older code of practice lacking the personal protection required to meet current standards.... anyone going for the cowboy option after been told that isn't worth your time.

If the wiring is not buried within 50mm then you can get away with the new outlet been a rcd socket as the regulation regarding sockets to be protected regardless of install methods is aimed at user protection when plugging items in and not the wiring, of course if it is buried within 50mm then yes the rcd needs to be up front.

 

[NickD]

Lets be realistic here, we all know what the regs say, but who would honestly add RCD protection?

If it was a recent board yeah, I'd pop an RCBO in, but what if it was a rewireable board and there was no bonding in place (and a bit of a nightmare to put it in place too)???

My answer isn't so black and white then.

If it was some rich fella with a Merc in the driveway then I'd price to do the job properly, ie. whack bonding in and install an RCD socket or an RCD on the circuit to protect a normal one. If it was an old granny living on her 60 odd quid a week, I'd probably just move the socket without doing anything additional safe in the knowledge that my work is going to be safer than DIY Dan's who she'd inevitably get in to do the work if I priced to do the job properly.

If the rich guy however still got DIY Dan in to do the work after I quoted to do it properly, I wouldn't lose any sleep whatsoever!

That's why I think the socket with integral RCD is a good compromise. Compliance, but not at a high cost.

 

[telectrix]

what you could do is replace the existing socket with a RCD FCU, then spur to new socket. that way you'd protect the new cable if chased in as well as the socket. whatever you do, still need to confirm earthing and bonding and rectify if required.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

oye Nick..

stop attention seeking with sillyness like this....just shift the chuffing thing to where you want it.....

its not an addition or new install is it for christs sake...use your initiative lad...

if you feel they may be using it for outdoor equipment then replace the front with an RCD outlet.....

bloody nora...

 

[Badged01]

The only question you need to ask yourself if something does go wrong will the HSE see moving the socket as just a commonsense measure and not prosecute? Or will they perhaps think otherwise and start looking for what guidance you should or should not have followed?

I look at the move putting in a new socket, regardless of whether you blank-off/fill-in the old location etc. and would cover my butt with an RCD etc. If the old girl can get someone else to move it for her then let her ..... either way I'll sleep happy at night :smiley2:

 

[DPG]

oye Nick..

stop attention seeking with sillyness like this....just shift the chuffing thing to where you want it.....

its not an addition or new install is it for christs sake...use your initiative lad...

if you feel they may be using it for outdoor equipment then replace the front with an RCD outlet.....

bloody nora...

How is it attention seeking? It's a question which was asked in a fair way and has already had different answers given by members on here. Daz

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How is it attention seeking? It's a question which was asked in a fair way and has already had different answers given by members on here. Daz

hi Daz...hows it goin mate..

 

[Toby Kuhnert]

As Tel has already said, change the existing point for an RCD FCU, then come off the load side. Happy days...

 

[Eddiesparks]

So easiest way would be use an RCD socket. But think about it like this. They now have 15/20 sockets with no rcd protection and one with! Haha you should tell them to plug anything in THAT socket if they plan on getting a belt at any time in the future. I'm with D skelton. Common sense/type of punter.

 

[MDJ]

So easiest way would be use an RCD socket. But think about it like this. They now have 15/20 sockets with no rcd protection and one with! Haha you should tell them to plug anything in THAT socket if they plan on getting a belt at any time in the future. I'm with D skelton. Common sense/type of punter.

No sorry I don't agree with that at all

 

[Eddiesparks]

Ok. CHEAPEST way. No?

 

[MDJ]

read post 13, By adding a RCD socket you are still not protecting the cable you install, doing it the way Tel mentioned you protect the cable and new socket, the best suggestion in this thread by far and the right one IMHO.

 

[Eddiesparks]

Spot on. Point taken.

The rest of my post still stands though.

 

[ipf]

Dear oh dear..............

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I did a similar job a while back. Customer 90 year old, old dear, wanted another twin socket next to the existing twin socket behind the telly so she didn't have to use adaptors. Wylex rewireable board, did the essential tests, and duly fitted her a new twin socket. I ask myself this, is it safer now without RCD's or was it safer before using adaptors and extension leads?

I sleep well, knowing that i did a safe non compliant job, and if i hadn't have done it, then someone else in the pub would. You are competent enough to risk assess it, and get the job done. No one will ever get prosecuted for doing the right thing for the right reason.

Remember the regs are guidance only, and must be complied with as far as is Reasonably Practical, and not regardless of cost and inconvenience.

Cheers.............Howard

PS I await the regs brigade onslaught!

 

[DPG]

Dear oh dear to which post???

 

[MDJ]

I did a similar job a while back. Customer 90 year old, old dear, wanted another twin socket next to the existing twin socket behind the telly so she didn't have to use adaptors. Wylex rewireable board, did the essential tests, and duly fitted her a new twin socket. I ask myself this, is it safer now without RCD's or was it safer before using adaptors and extension leads?

I sleep well, knowing that i did a safe non compliant job, and if i hadn't have done it, then someone else in the pub would. You are competent enough to risk assess it, and get the job done. No one will ever get prosecuted for doing the right thing for the right reason.

Remember the regs are guidance only, and must be complied with as far as is Reasonably Practical, and not regardless of cost and inconvenience.

Cheers.............Howard

PS I await the regs brigade onslaught!

No onslaught by me Howard, I fully understand your point and Damiens and never said there was a problem. I still think though Tels suggestion was the right way and I would do the job the way he suggested myself, It would still be a fairly cheap quick job and it would be a good job.

 

[7029 dave]

I am all for the common sense approach, but in the world we live of litigation, I would not install sockets without rcd protection, it's all about covering one's ---!!. On that note I am sooo glad am away from domestic and contracting full stop.!!!

 

[Andrewr3]

This afternoon I looked a job to move a 13A DSSO socket only 120mm (out from a brick wall onto a new stud wall just in front of it). Cable extensions probably required. No RCDs on any final circuits.

 

[NickD]

As Tel has already said, change the existing point for an RCD FCU, then come off the load side. Happy days...

I'd thought that, but the original socket position is going to get blocked by a radiator, which is the reason for the socket move.

 

[Andrewr3]

I'd thought that, but the original socket position is going to get blocked by a radiator, which is the reason for the socket move.

Ditto. Similar problem, in my job the original socket will be behind a plaster board wall.

 

[NickD]

stop attention seeking with sillyness like this

Oh, that's what I was doing is it? Sorry, I didn't realise. I thought I was learning.

its not an addition...is it for christs sake

What has the three foot of 2.5+1.5 T&E between the old position and the socket been then, if not added? I'm aware this is a very by-the-book approach to the regs but that's the way I roll. Look at it this way: install new socket without RCD protection, document it, client electrocutes themselves from it. The worry in addition to any criminal charge is whether the relatives launch a large civil claim for damages. Your PL / PI insurer will probably refuse to cover you because you have operated outside the rules you are meant to operate within. You are now ****ed.

So my inclination, based on the useful posts from others, is that I would push the client towards RCD protected socket (or if original socket postion wasn't getting blocked off, RCD FCU), although being honest about the fact I needed to do so to cover myself (let's face it, what does one RCD protected socket add, unless you sell the benefits for outdoor equipment etc.). Whether I would at a push do it non RCD protected for cash with no paperwork, I offer no comment!

- - - Updated - - -

Ditto. Similar problem, in my job the original socket will be behind a plaster board wall.

Which means you can't use screwed terminals or anything else which must have maintenance access.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Oh, that's what I was doing is it? Sorry, I didn't realise. I thought I was learning.



What has the three foot of 2.5+1.5 T&E between the old position and the socket been then, if not added? I'm aware this is a very by-the-book approach to the regs but that's the way I roll. Look at it this way: install new socket without RCD protection, document it, client electrocutes themselves from it. The worry in addition to any criminal charge is whether the relatives launch a large civil claim for damages. Your PL / PI insurer will probably refuse to cover you because you have operated outside the rules you are meant to operate within. You are now ****ed.

So my inclination, based on the useful posts from others, is that I would push the client towards RCD protected socket (or if original socket postion wasn't getting blocked off, RCD FCU), although being honest about the fact I needed to do so to cover myself (let's face it, what does one RCD protected socket add, unless you sell the benefits for outdoor equipment etc.). Whether I would at a push do it non RCD protected for cash with no paperwork, I offer no comment!

- - - Updated - - -



Which means you can't use screwed terminals or anything else which must have maintenance access.

well you crack on then kid....you knows what your doing...

after having a browse in here that is....

 

[NickD]

well you crack on then kid

Kid. Love it. I'll tell my 19 year old daughter I got called that.

 

[Silly Sausage]

RCD or No RCD Protection, I present you Exhibit 1 (from the MWC):

PART 4 Declaration
I/We CERTIFY that the said works do not impair the safety of the existing installation, that the said works have been
designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671:2008 (IET Wiring Regulations), amended to
................. (date) and that the said works, to the best of my/our knowledge and belief, at the time of my/our inspection,
complied with BS 7671 except as detailed in Part 1 above.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Kid. Love it. I'll tell my 19 year old daughter I got called that.

good lad..

 

[DPG]

hi Daz...hows it goin mate..

Going well ta.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Going well ta.

glad to hear it.

 

[Guest55]

read post 13, By adding a RCD socket you are still not protecting the cable you install, doing it the way Tel mentioned you protect the cable and new socket, the best suggestion in this thread by far and the right one IMHO.

for the love of god , take that broomhandle out your --- for 5 minutes.

whats the point of rcd'ing just 3 fookin feet of the houses entire internal wiring just to tick off a box on some crappy MWC ?


just move it , add nothing , change nothing.

;-)

 

[MDJ]

for the love of god , take that broomhandle out your --- for 5 minutes.

whats the point of rcd'ing just 3 fookin feet of the houses entire internal wiring just to tick off a box on a ****y MWC ?


just move it , add nothing , change nothing.

;-)

haha, regarding the rest of the post no I won't, well I will now because since My post the OP has mentioned a radiator is going over the existing position so that changes everything, otherwise Tels suggestion is the right way, up yours

 

[telectrix]

and say or write nowt.

 

[NickD]

whats the point of rcd'ing just 3 fookin feet of the houses entire internal wiring just to tick off a box on some crappy MWC?

Read the rest of the thread and see, bearing in mind different people are prepared to take different risks.

 

[jaypp]

I'd thought that, but the original socket position is going to get blocked by a radiator, which is the reason for the socket move.

moving 3ft to left. unless it's a very large radiator, can't that move a tad to the left?

 

[Guest55]

haha, regarding the rest of the post no I won't, well I will now because since My post the OP has mentioned a radiator is going over the existing position so that changes everything, otherwise Tels suggestion is the right way, up yours

sorry but that sounded gibberish ??? read it back again.
i think hanging around with sarz lately has addled your brain , the new monkey inspired nursery rhyme sig is just further evidence........

;-)

 

[Guest55]

Read the rest of the thread and see

wtf have i done to deserve that cruel imposition ?

;-)

 

[NickD]

moving 3ft to left. unless it's a very large radiator, can't that move a tad to the left?

He who pays the piper....

 

[ipf]

He who pays the piper....

........gets his pipes altered and his rad moved.

 

[jaypp]

He who pays the piper....

Just thinking if elderly and money's an issue it would be better than non compliant work, esp if TT

 

[Selfmade]

I have enough of a job persuading some of my customers to shell out to get actual dangerous faults fixed, let alone paying for safety devices that weren't even invented for most of their lives!

I was taught that it was preferable to work to the regs that were in force when the installation was installed - so if an RCD was not required when it was last rewired, then an RCD is not required now! Is this not the case? Of course I would alway advise that an RCD be fitted, but if I insisted on it I'd be sitting on a street with a paper cup in front of me by now.

I'm sorry if this seems blase, but it's a lot less blase than the "it's never given us any trouble" (actual quote), or the "please do what you were asked and stop fussing around the electrics that have been fine for the past 50 years" (what I can tell they are thinking!) that you are up against when you are "DIY Dan"'s unfortunate replacement.

P.S., I am in a bad mood because of a customer trying to haggle. I am not selling a second hand car for goodness sake!

 

[Darkwood]

Selfmade refer to my previous post ... any additions or alterations to a circuit will be required to meet current regulations regardless of what edition the previous was installed under, you may only discard the need to meet the 17th if you are not changing the circuit like just replacing a socket top.

Rcd's have been around over half a century but we have seen their gradual implementation over the last 15yrs, they are not fail safe or the end all option but whe they work they dramatically reduce the chance of death or injury and even fire prevention to some extent, if you were in the unfortunate scenario that you did some alterations leaving your work to a previous regulation ie.. no rcd cover in this case and a faulty appliance plugged into the socket you moved killed someone you have really got some serious explaining to do and maybe implicated as a key factor in the circumstances leading up to the accident. Ignorance unfortunately can't be used as a defense, its amazing how many sparks out there go around doing substandard work not realising the consequences of it if things go wrong.

You should not do any additions or alterations unless you are satisfied the earthing and bonding are sufficient to the property and all work you carry out meets current regulations.. its scary your not fully aware of this.

As for haggling customers - its common place you learn to spot the ones who will try thus you add a small % in the first place -your happy they are happy and you can once more feed the family.