new consumer unit certification

[neilyboy]

What certification do I need when replacing a consumer unit ?

Here are the details.

I am semi retired (electrician) and work for a company as the maintenance man which rents out flats as serviced accommodation, we are currently in the process of having the flats (25 of them) tested (fixed wiring testing EICR)

We have brought in an outside company to do the testing and one of the flats will require a board change.

The company have quoted for this and various other C1 and C3 fault rectifications and as well as that have said that the smoke detectors require work done to them as well.

I know that the smoke detectors are out with the scope of an EICR and together with some of the other "faults" they have flagged up I think they are trying to generate income.

Can I change the board myself ? if so what certification would I need bearing in mind all the fixed wiring has been tested and the results logged on the EICR.
We are in scotland and I've trawled tinternet for the answers but its very confusing, is it a minor works certificate needed ? building control informed ?EIC ?
Ta

 

[Julie.]

If you are competent, then you can do the work.

It will need a full EIC .

The need to inform the local authority is not really on the type of work like England, but on the location and type of premises (and a bit on the work).

Taking the two extremes, if you have a detached property, then no notice is required for a cu change. However if it is say a tenement, then notice is required.

If you are in a scheme, you can do the work and notify through the scheme, if not you must inform the authority ahead of doing any work.

The authority will decide whether to perform their own tests (cost by them but passed on to you in terms of the cost of the warrant), or accept your tests if you can demonstrate appropriate qualifications, and test equipment.

 

[neilyboy]

When you say EIC are you meaning all the fixed wiring again IR test,continuity,impedence etc or just an EIC for the new unit ie RCD times

and everything else you have said is pretty much what I've gleaned from tinternet

 

[catdog1121]

You say serviced accommodation... Would the property be considered residential or commercial... If residential it will fall into part P so you would need an EIC (To do this you will need an MFT in calibration) and building regs compliance certificate.. (The easiest way to comply is being part of a CPS)

You also need to be aware of changes that have been made to the current regulations...

I would also be concerned that as a maintenance man your companies insurance may not cover you doing such extensive electrical work.. As the designer and installer you would need both liability and indemnity insurance...

Why not get another quote or two to understand if the quote given is reasonable? It seems a little over-reaction to decide to do it yourself, with all the potential problems that may occur.

 

[catdog1121]

When you say EIC are you meaning all the fixed wiring again IR test,continuity,impedence etc or just an EIC for the new unit ie RCD times

and everything else you have said is pretty much what I've gleaned from tinternet

By you producing the EIC you are stating you are the designer, constructor and tester so yes you would need to carry out all the relevant tests for the fixed wiring again.. You could rely on the EICR results but its your name on the certificate and you were the last person to touch it so if something goes wrong you are the one signing to say you have tested it... Do you want to rely on someone else's test results?

 

[Julie.]

You say serviced accommodation... Would the property be considered residential or commercial... If residential it will fall into part P so you would need an EIC (To do this you will need an MFT in calibration) and building regs compliance certificate.. (The easiest way to comply is being part of a CPS)

You also need to be aware of changes that have been made to the current regulations...

I would also be concerned that as a maintenance man your companies insurance may not cover you doing such extensive electrical work.. As the designer and installer you would need both liability and indemnity insurance...

Why not get another quote or two to understand if the quote given is reasonable? It seems a little over-reaction to decide to do it yourself, with all the potential problems that may occur.

It will not fall into part P.

There is no such thing, part P is England and Wales.

 

[loz2754]

If residential it will fall into part P so you would need an EIC

Doesn't apply in Scotland

 

[neilyboy]

I thought Part P only applied to England and Wales, neither here nor there though, I'm sure it is classed as commercial.

The liability and indemnity question has been brought up before as I do the repairs to the domestic appliances and anything needed looked at in the building ,emergency lights, stairwell lights,I talked them into buying me a megger MFT 1721 as well.
I wouldn't have said that changing a CU was extensive work however I think going back to the company and mentioning the smoke detector issue being out with the scope of work for an EICR may force their hand to re-quote

 

[loz2754]

By you producing the EIC you are stating you are the designer, constructor and tester

Yes you are, but only of the works done by you, not the whole installation.

 

[Julie.]

When you say EIC are you meaning all the fixed wiring again IR test,continuity,impedence etc or just an EIC for the new unit ie RCD times

and everything else you have said is pretty much what I've gleaned from tinternet

Full EIC, you are changing all the circuit protection, must test and certify to current edition 100%

Edit:
As stated above, you don't have to take responsibility for things you can't see, or do, so ensuring Zs is correct - this is down to you (as will ensuring the protection is suitable, ir test ok, polarity etc), but that the cables are within zones within a wall etc , then no, not you unless you have reason to believe the existing installation is not to standard

 

[catdog1121]

Doesn't apply in Scotland

Sorry yes didnt see that bit, forgot the sweaties like to be different..

 

[catdog1121]

Yes you are, but only of the works done by you, not the whole installation.

Your connecting all the circuits to a consumer unit, do you not test all those circuits? What do you put in the schedule of test results, do you just leave it blank... Thats the first time anyone has given that interpretation..

 

[catdog1121]

I thought Part P only applied to England and Wales, neither here nor there though, I'm sure it is classed as commercial.

The liability and indemnity question has been brought up before as I do the repairs to the domestic appliances and anything needed looked at in the building ,emergency lights, stairwell lights,I talked them into buying me a megger MFT 1721 as well.
I wouldn't have said that changing a CU was extensive work however I think going back to the company and mentioning the smoke detector issue being out with the scope of work for an EICR may force their hand to re-quote

Yes sorry missed the bit of being in one of the outlier countries (Just kidding).. Your MFT 1721 will do the job sterlingly and sounds like you have thought about it.. Not sure on what you need in Scotland but sounds like your on the ball..

 

[Deleted account]

if you have a detached property, then no notice is required for a cu change.

really? I never new this.

 

[neilyboy]

AS I said at the start very very confusing ......

 

[loz2754]

Your connecting all the circuits to a consumer unit, do you not test all those circuits? What do you put in the schedule of test results, do you just leave it blank... Thats the first time anyone has given that interpretation..

Yes I test all the circuits, but I don't inspect everything as thoroughly as would be required in an EICR.
Perhaps I read something into your post that wasn't there, sorry about that.

 

[Julie.]

AS I said at the start very very confusing ......

It isn't really, it is only when you start looking or getting information about other countries which causes confusion.

You need to look at the information from the Scottish government, all the building regulations are there and lay out when a warrant is needed, don't look at foreign countries, or information it is often different.

 

[neilyboy]

You need to look at the information from the Scottish government, all the building regulations are there and lay out when a warrant is needed, don't look at foreign countries, or information it is often different.

Yep that's exactly what I've done and my understanding is as quoted earlier ie notify building control and they may or may not decide to check it or charge to check it.
When you mean foreign countries do you mean "dan sarf"....

 

[Julie.]

really? I never new this.

It's laid out with the Scottish building regulations, explaining when is, or when isn't a warrant required.

 

[Julie.]

Yep that's exactly what I've done and my understanding is as quoted earlier ie notify building control and they may or may not decide to check it or charge to check it.
When you mean foreign countries do you mean "dan sarf"....

Any other countries other than Scotland!

For some reason people try to imply their local regulations apply wider than their own country, unfortunately there is lots of misinformation out there in the Internet as people write what they know, without explaining that they are applying 'US' or English, or whatever local regulations.

Really bad for DIYers who see nonsense on you tube and think it is OK for them. (Use US techniques or standards in the UK, or visa versa ).

 

[Julie.]

Your connecting all the circuits to a consumer unit, do you not test all those circuits? What do you put in the schedule of test results, do you just leave it blank... Thats the first time anyone has given that interpretation..

When you do a new installation then you must certify that everything is correct to the latest standards, everything from wiring colours, through cables in correct zones, testing etc etc. - you are 100% responsible for every aspect.

If you do a new cu installation, you are only certifying your work, so you can re-utilise the old (incorrect) colours, you don't guarantee that cables are in zones etc.

Obviously all testing is required, as is the proper design of circuits for volt drop, Zs, overload etc. Which may mean you have to split or reconfigure the existing installation if you can't meet the current standards etc.

You are 100% responsible for your work, but not responsible for existing aspects you can't reasonably change or check.

 

[Julie.]

For ease, this attachment shows when a building warrant is/is not required for electrical work.

 

[littlespark]

Before I go any further, I just want to point out, it’s not sweat, it’s pure Scottish talent seeping out our pores…..


Anyway… An EIC is required, but there is a box for “ scope of works” where you fill in it’s just a CU change.
Your EIC should be kept with the EICR to prove the work has been done.

What C1 faults are there? They should be priority for rectifying.

Yes, smoke detectors themselves don’t come under BS7671, just the mains wiring to them, but there are new scottish legislation that they may be bringing to your attention. You didn’t say there was any code against the smoke detectors.

 

[Julie.]

Before I go any further, I just want to point out, it’s not sweat, it’s pure Scottish talent seeping out our pores…..

And English talent, on loan....

 

[pc1966]

For ease, this attachment shows when a building warrant is/is not required for electrical work.

There are some odd things there, such as a warrant being needed for a new socket in a flat, but not for an electric shower (which is more likely to overload, and is in a special area for wiring regs)!

 

[pc1966]

Also can anyone help me parse this statement in @Julie. PDF example document:

Note 2 A building warrant is not required for rewiring where it is a repair or replacement works to a level
equal to the installation (or part thereof) being repaired or replaced.

The first bit "where it is a repair" makes some sense as you are repairing a damaged cable by replacement then hardly a big change. But what is the second aspect saying? To me it sounds like no warrant if you are rewiring to the same size/layout.

But at what point would a rewire be massively different to the original installation? Is it some convoluted way of saying you are putting in a new installation to a building without any significant wiring already?!

 

[Julie.]

There are some odd things there, such as a warrant being needed for a socket in a flat, but not for an electric shower (which is more likely to overload, and is in a special area for wiring regs)!

The overriding principle is that if the work could impact others, then a warrant is needed.

Whether a warrant is required or not, the work still must be done to standard, so the work on an adjoining wall, just like a shower has to comply to the same regulations (all aspects).

Not sure it's odd, as the obligation is the same in terms of standard of work.

 

[pc1966]

The overriding principle is that if the work could impact others, then a warrant is needed.

Yes, the aspect about work on shared walls, etc, makes perfect sense.

Whether a warrant is required or not, the work still must be done to standard, so the work on an adjoining wall, just like a shower has to comply to the same regulations (all aspects).

Agreed, no issue there.

Not sure it's odd, as the obligation is the same in terms of standard of work.

What I'm failing to see is how a new socket is a higher risk to adjoining property than a new electric shower! There will be many locations in a flat where a socket is not on an adjoining wall, and it could be surface mounted rather than chased in.

 

[Julie.]

I take it as pretty much what you are saying, if you replace like for like - perhaps slightly different cable run etc. Then no warrant.

But if the rewire is basically a new design, so say you refirb offices, with new layouts etc then this isn't like for like.

 

[Julie.]

...and it could be surface mounted rather than chased in.

In which case no warrant would be required.


A correctly fitted socket outlet is no different to a correctly fitted shower.

If you adversely impact the adjoining wall, for whatever reason, then a warrant is required

 

[pc1966]

If you adversely impact the adjoining wall, for whatever reason, then a warrant is required

It seems to me they could have worded it in a far less torturous way such as warrant needed if:
1) Material changes to walls/floors/ceiling shared with other's property
2) Very high power equipment or multi-storey building where additional fire risks
Do you know if plumbing is similar i.e if chasing in pipes for a new shower, etc, does that need a warrant?

 

[Julie.]

It seems to me they could have worded it in a far less torturous way such as warrant needed if:
1) Material changes to walls/floors/ceiling shared with other's property
2) Very high power equipment or multi-storey building where additional fire risks
Do you know if plumbing is similar i.e if chasing in pipes for a new shower, etc, does that need a warrant?

Don't know, I only look at the electrical portions on the legislation, but it's all there on the government website.

EDIT, just checked, yes it's similar.

 

[pc1966]

The odd thing is the electrical list seems not to cover a CU change? It would do if it is consider part of a substantially different rewiring I guess, but otherwise it seems a like-for-like replacement (the 'Note 2' business) is not really covered.

However, building warrant or not is still has to be done by someone electrically competent to specify/design, install, test and do a full EIC certificate, etc.!

 

[Julie.]

The odd thing is the electrical list seems not to cover a CU change? It would do if it is consider part of a substantially different rewiring I guess, but otherwise it seems a like-for-like replacement (the 'Note 2' business) is not really covered.

However, building warrant or not is still has to be done by someone electrically competent to specify/design, install, test and do a full EIC certificate, etc.!

And to the building regulations of course.

Many forget this, for example in Scotland you cannot have a surface switch within a bath/shower/toilet room, the light switch must be outside, or a pull cord.

Not due to the wiring regs, but because of Scottish building regulations.

Yet another 'helpful' guide:

 

[neilyboy]

Before I go any further, I just want to point out, it’s not sweat, it’s pure Scottish talent seeping out our pores…..


Anyway… An EIC is required, but there is a box for “ scope of works” where you fill in it’s just a CU change.
Your EIC should be kept with the EICR to prove the work has been done.

What C1 faults are there? They should be priority for rectifying.

Yes, smoke detectors themselves don’t come under BS7671, just the mains wiring to them, but there are new scottish legislation that they may be bringing to your attention. You didn’t say there was any code against the smoke detectors.I

The C1 faults are that there are blanks missing from the front of the CU and when he unscrewed the cover one of the fixing lugs snapped (wylex plastic unit about 10 years old )

The smoke detectors are hard wired and probably don't conform to the latest scottish legislation ie interlinked but as I said previously its serviced accommodation and I'm almost certain that each apartment has its own sounder in it so wouldn't fall under the regs which are for domestic properties

 

[neilyboy]

And to the building regulations of course.

Many forget this, for example in Scotland you cannot have a surface switch within a bath/shower/toilet room, the light switch must be outside, or a pull cord.

Not due to the wiring regs, but because of Scottish building regulations.

Yet another 'helpful' guide:

further to this thread another of the consumer units requires a new RCD so what certification would this need ? EIC ,MWC ?
the board already has an EICR on it which has flagged the faulty RCD.
The guidance on the ScotsGov site isn't very clear on this issue

 

[Julie.]

further to this thread another of the consumer units requires a new RCD so what certification would this need ? EIC ,MWC ?
the board already has an EICR on it which has flagged the faulty RCD.
The guidance on the ScotsGov site isn't very clear on this issue

Like for like doesn't really need anything, but if it's in response to an EICR then it would be helpful to do a MWC , so the customer has documentation showing the issues have been addressed, and the test results.

 

[pirate]

Very interesting, this thread. I was not aware of need for a warrant for a new socket in a flat. I can see the logic if it's on a shared wall, but not an internal wall.
many thanks to @pc1966 for using the word "parse"...made my day!

 

[littlespark]

“parse”???

Is that todays Wordle answer?

 

[littlespark]

There’s many differences between Scottish and English rules… so be aware what people tell you.

Ignore anything to do with “part p” That’s England only.

For a consumer unit change, there should be an EIC to cover it though.

 

[littlespark]

@daveysing Did you read the guides uploaded by Julie earlier in the thread? It shows what does and doesn’t need a warrant. I should have read back myself.

Perhaps the electrician genuinely didn’t know.

The thing is, the estate agent themselves should know… They will have been selling flats before and this issue would have come up previously.

What if DIY Dave had just picked up a consumer unit and a load of breakers from his local B&Q or screwfix and done it themselves?
What certification would exist then?

 

[cireland]

It doesn't look like you need a warrant, but you do need an EIC for the consumer unit.
Whoever fitted it should have supplied one to YOU as the owner of the property.

 

[pc1966]

I remember this discussion before with @Julie. on the situation in Scotland and it seems that you need a building warrant if you are making any substantive changes to the building structure or they risk impacting on neighbours, for example installing new sockets that require walls to be chiselled out to accommodate them, etc.

However, a like-for-like rewire or replacement of accessories or a CU don't require a Scottish building warrant. But obviously they need to be done competently and so you should get documentation in the form of an EIC showing the unit was tested properly, etc.

 

[pc1966]

Is that even in a flat?

If you read the PDF file from post #22 it says for flats under 'Note 2':

A building warrant is not required for rewiring where it is a repair or replacement works to a level equal to the installation (or part thereof) being repaired or replaced.

The generally related notes, probably not too important here, relating to the PDF file from post #34 are under section 3:

Sockets
There must be no electrical sockets or switches in the bathroom other than a dedicated shaver socket and pull cord switches.

Recessed lights
It is important that recessed light fittings are installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions particularly with regards to maintaining free air movement around the holder for cooling and for the avoidance of wetting. The existing insulation to the roof space must not be compromised by the addition of the recessed lights. When fitting the recessed lights, the floor/roof structure must not be affected.

Note - All electrical installations must be carried out by a competent installer, for example a member of SELECT or NICEIC

 

[Mike Johnson]

As far as I can see the "Scotland warrant" (in part) is the equivalent of the "English Party Wall Award" for which a "Party Wall Surveyor" has to be appointed, I wonder how many of you guys have worked on a party wall without the necessary clearance/award being in place?

 

[richy3333]

What certification do I need when replacing a consumer unit ?

Here are the details.

I am semi retired (electrician) and work for a company as the maintenance man which rents out flats as serviced accommodation, we are currently in the process of having the flats (25 of them) tested (fixed wiring testing EICR)

We have brought in an outside company to do the testing and one of the flats will require a board change.

The company have quoted for this and various other C1 and C3 fault rectifications and as well as that have said that the smoke detectors require work done to them as well.

I know that the smoke detectors are out with the scope of an EICR and together with some of the other "faults" they have flagged up I think they are trying to generate income.

Can I change the board myself ? if so what certification would I need bearing in mind all the fixed wiring has been tested and the results logged on the EICR.
We are in scotland and I've trawled tinternet for the answers but its very confusing, is it a minor works certificate needed ? building control informed ?EIC ?
Ta

Do these flats fall under the Scottish PRS? If they do you will need to be NICEIC or SELECT registered, else have a valid SJIB card and jump through those hoops?

 

[Mike Johnson]

As far as I can see the "Scotland warrant" (in part) is the equivalent of the "English Party Wall Award" for which a "Party Wall Surveyor" has to be appointed, I wonder how many of you guys have worked on a party wall without the necessary clearance/award being in place?

Just to be clear the "Party Wall Surveyor" work for the Act not either party on the respective sides of the part wall.

 

[swaRRR]

Just do whatever you want. You don't have to tell anyone.

 

[pc1966]

So long as you have a certificate from the installer to show it was done to a professional standard then I don't see any problem at all.

The council are basically washing their hands of the matter!