New Kitchen - Told I need a new ring and radial. Not sure on this....

[Max Primal]

Hi.

I read another topic regards to this but my case is a little different so I would appreicate some views. I have just had B&Q out to quote on a new kitchen for me. I was told almost instantly that I need to have a new ring and radial (for the cooker) put in as my Kitchen is currently part of the main downstairs ring main.

My house was built in the 1960's and still has an old style fuse panel - I have never had need (or the money) to upgrade to an MCB board.

Upon hearing that my Kitchen is not separate the man from B&Q instantly said the 17th edition regs state that a kitchen must be on it's own circuit and therefore they must do this and replace all existing electrical outlets for new ones. He also stated that as my cooker point is rated at 30A the radial to that needs upgrading and replacing as the range cooker I want is (by some fluke) rated at 32A. He also would be adding 1 double socket on top of what I have and a spur for a dishwasher (which I do not have currently). I have a single socket on another wall which he made no mention of retaining but he has too as it is used regularly for a soup warmer when we have friends over.

I used to me a marine electrician - but never a domestic one, so I was never overly familiar with the 16th edition regs, let alone the current ones. But as soon as he said this I was not comfortable with it and thought it was a money making addition and I looked on my mobile phone and found a topic on here suggesting that a new ring was not necessary.

I would like thoughts on this and also the cooker issue. Given the age of my house and still having a old wired style fuse panel. Do I really need to change the electrics in the kitchen? He has not mentioned if this includes replacing cabling which surely is the more important part (and a right pain as they would need to rip up floor boards in my main bedroom AND remove part of the ceiling in my hall which leads to the fuse box on the garage wall). He just said about moving it to a new ring and changing the cooker point. One issue he did not even look at is my fuse box, which if he HAD looked at or asked about, he would have found has NO SPARE WAYS in it. They are all taken and full - so how he will add a new ring is beyond me without swapping the board (which he said would be out of my budget with the cost of the kitchen) to do if I wanted it off my own back.

This guy was obviously a sales man / basic designer with no real grasp on the intracies of what needs to be done outside unit/floor fitting etc and this bothers me.


What would people here recommend. Do I need to alter the house electrics which have been fine over the 11 years I have lived here or not, or was the man from B&Q adding stuff to the price that I do not need?

Thanks
Max

 

[telectrix]

without seeing the situation, it's difficult to make an accurate assessment. there is no requirement for the kitchen to be on a separate circuit, but it would be advantageous to be so, as the main loads in the house are generally in the kitchen, and separation of circuits is recommended so as to alleviate the inconvenience of a fault on 1 circuit disabling the whole house. my honest opinion would be to get a second opinion from a local electrician.

 

[Max Primal]

without seeing the situation, it's difficult to make an accurate assessment. there is no requirement for the kitchen to be on a separate circuit, but it would be advantageous to be so, as the main loads in the house are generally in the kitchen, and separation of circuits is recommended so as to alleviate the inconvenience of a fault on 1 circuit disabling the whole house. my honest opinion would be to get a second opinion from a local electrician.

Funny. I was thinking this as well. I can then get a quote for a fuse box change at the same time (which would be good) as well as pick brains on what I was told. Time to look at Check-a-trade I think and make a call in the morning.

Any other thoughts we welcomed but thank you for this one.

Max

 

[alanl]

As is typical of a salesman, he is not telling the whole truth, or misleading you, or is totally ignorant of the Regulations.
Firstly, the kitchen does not have to be on its own circuit. Any houses with rewirable fuseboxes are likely to have all of their socket outlets on one, or two fuses.
The cooker may need a bigger rated fuse/cable. It is difficult to assess without being given more information. I would take an educated guess that if it is supplied by a 6mm T+E cable via a 30A fuse, it would be OK, but, more info is required to conclude.
If they are adding new sockets, then the new sockets will have to have RCD protection. If putting in a new ring for the kitchen only (what are they doing with the old cables in the kitchen?) then they would add a small RCD protected Consumer unit next to/near to your current fuse box.
This is a bit of a fudge, as it wouldnt take a great deal longer to fit a complete new Consumer unit. Typically, that can be done in a day (or less) for around £300. That would add a low percentage to the overall cost, and is far more suitable for you in my opinion.
I do bathrooms/kitchens and electrics, and always offer a new CU when such a situation is encountered, if it is a full kitchen refit, then it adds little in time and money to do it.
I'd suggest you get a different company, preferably smaller, to give another opinion on what is required.

HTH
Alan.

 

[robskiing]

Why dont you let the forum know of your whereabouts and im sure there would be someone who would go round and have a look at your consumer unit and kitchen and give you a quote there is a lot of experienced sparks on here

 

[Max Primal]

As is typical of a salesman, he is not telling the whole truth, or misleading you, or is totally ignorant of the Regulations.
Firstly, the kitchen does not have to be on its own circuit. Any houses with rewirable fuseboxes are likely to have all of their socket outlets on one, or two fuses.
The cooker may need a bigger rated fuse/cable. It is difficult to assess without being given more information. I would take an educated guess that if it is supplied by a 6mm T+E cable via a 30A fuse, it would be OK, but, more info is required to conclude.
If they are adding new sockets, then the new sockets will have to have RCD protection. If putting in a new ring for the kitchen only (what are they doing with the old cables in the kitchen?) then they would add a small RCD protected Consumer unit next to/near to your current fuse box.
This is a bit of a fudge, as it wouldnt take a great deal longer to fit a complete new Consumer unit. Typically, that can be done in a day (or less) for around £300. That would add a low percentage to the overall cost, and is far more suitable for you in my opinion.
I do bathrooms/kitchens and electrics, and always offer a new CU when such a situation is encountered, if it is a full kitchen refit, then it adds little in time and money to do it.
I'd suggest you get a different company, preferably smaller, to give another opinion on what is required.

HTH
Alan.

Thanks for this Alan. I am pretty sure the main cooker cable is 6mm from when I changed the cooker around 10 years ago and replaced the main cooker point up to the switch (I used to be a marine electrician so this was a simple job for me). This is why his speal sounded wrong to me - I may not know the regs but I have a good feel for when someone is not being honest on things.

I have found two local companies from checkatrade now with high feedbacks and ratings. One is purely electrical work, one does electrics, gas and kitchens so I am going to get both in. They can both advise on the electrics and one can also quote on the kitchen too!

I am glad my feeling was right and I did not take him at face value - that is at least comforting.

Max

 

[telectrix]

as long as check-a-trade are not like my hammer........... not heard of them.

 

[Spudnik]

as long as check-a-trade are not like my hammer........... not heard of them.

Nothing like them.

Its exactly what it says on the tin.

You can use it to find a local reputable tradesman, who have to go through a few checks before they can become members (and part with some folding of course).

 

[Max Primal]

Nothing like them.

Its exactly what it says on the tin.

You can use it to find a local reputable tradesman, who have to go through a few checks before they can become members (and part with some folding of course).

I know a few people who have used checkatrade and said it worked. So I thought it was a perfect situation to use it and try and find someone who is going to be honest and not try and rip me off or take me as a mug.

Better than a random pick out of Yell...

Max

 

[topquark]

as long as check-a-trade are not like my hammer........... not heard of them.

Run by the local councils for each area.

 

[telectrix]

think i'll have to check 'em out then.

 

[robsparky1975]

Another thing that might have been missed is the sizing of the main bonding to your gas & water services,if its 1960s wiring,could be quite likely that may need doing as well,would usually be 10mm2 earth cable dependant on type of supply.

 

[Des 56]

Another point to consider is that any addition or alteration that is being suggested would more than likely entail upgrading of the existing earthing and bonding
The difficulty of doing this can depend on the location of the service entry points and may need to be considered ref flooring access etc
Whilst the B+Q "sale commisioned" agent is wrong on most of his advise, the costs of improving the electrical installation at the same time as the kitchen is small in comparison with what the kitchen will cost overall. and should be seriously considered

 

[DurhamSparky]

buy a much better kitchen from a local independent kitchen company and get a local spark to do work .........

all round better IMO....!!

B & Q kitchen are "crap" quality for the price you pay!

 

[Geordie Spark]

buy a much better kitchen from a local independent kitchen company and get a local spark to do work .........

all round better IMO....!!

B & Q kitchen are "crap" quality for the price you pay!

You don't like B&Q much do you?

 

[DurhamSparky]

cant stand B&Q unless i need some thing handy like a shovel or some weedkiller!

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Firstly get shut of B&Q, they are only interested in getting your money.
Secondly, get a reputable local spark in to discuss free of charge and give you a quote for your requirements, and any applicable upgrades you may also need to your electrical installation.
Thirdly, go to somewhere local and reasonable and get your kitchen planned properly by someone who knows what they are doing.
Fourthly, get a local joiner --- kitchen fitter to fit it all for you, they will also be able to deal with the plumbing, tiling etc as well.
Fifthly, and most important, send me half of the money i have just saved you by getting rid of B&Q, and employing local reliable tradesmen who do actually give a ----, will value your custom, respect your property, and no doubt be thankful for the work.

My next door neighbour got B&Q round to quote for their bathroom, it was just a shade more expensive than extortionate.
They went and bought a bathroom suite, i did the fan and lights, my mate did the plastering, plumbing and fit the bathroom suite, and neighbours dad did the tiling. Nothing was done for mates rates (except her dads time) and they saved nearly 2 grand and bought quality stuff as well.

Cheers..................Howard

 

[DurhamSparky]

B&Q typical invoice

kitchen 2k
Fitting 5k

:banghead:

 

[mogga]

I got a quote for fitted bedroom recently We knew what we wanted and called a local firm and a big national (space) the local guy came took measurements and what we wanted Emailed plans and price next day exactly what we wanted Space came with a Van load of kit told us we could only have what she could fit not what we wanted only 1/2 what we wanted not the main part (over bed unit) Hammonds Space £3800 then 30% "Sale" and 5% for ordering on that day after HARD SELL local firm £2500 with 10% discount for paying in full on day of completion even though overbed was going to take 3 weeks for doors he came and fitted sliding robe bit 2 days after we confirmed order I priced a modular style from big Shed and I Could have done it but deffo NOT same quality as ours is fitted and even the bits would have cost nearly what we got fully fitted

IT Pays to shop around specialy NOT the sheds

 

[DurhamSparky]

same here mogga!!

i got 2x bedrooms fitted out, one master with units and side drawers behind bed with 2x floor to ceiling double robes at other end.

second room was fitted out as an office with l shaped desk with drawers and over head storage with small robe floor to ceiling (designed so you can remove l shape desk and draws and still fit a single bed in

4k fully fitted

b&q / hammonds and sharps all wanted 4.5k just for master room and said my office solution was impracticable! (i.e they dont do custom fit works)

 

[nickblake]

range cooker needs to be 32 amps mm takes alot more than that to blow a 30 amp fuse !!! hehe agree with what the guys have said get shot and spend you money wisly get in a local regestered spart to give you a quote and advise for the work you require and speak to local kitchen fitters

 

[1shortcircuit]

On the plus side, if you move the kitchen onto it's own ring, replace the existing wiring and upgrade the bonding then you know the chances are the B&Q crap will fall to bits far sooner than your spanking new electrical installation

It may be an extra expense but it would be a shame to have everything done and then a little while later a fault occur which means massive disruption to your newly fitted and newly decorated room:thumbsup

 

[robskiing]

Why is it that the majority of people will spend thousands on new kitchens bathrooms etc yet when you mention that you need a rewire or a board upgrade and bonding they shy away and are not interested.It has worked ok for all them years dont need doing cant you just add on to the existing the most under estimated trade .