Not good DECC figures

[ktech]

Re the below:

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/source/fits/fits.aspx

We are offering 4kW Yingli @ £6199 but very quiet. This is with a 15% return. What's happening?

 

[LightGEN]

Everyone is racing to the bottom on price I see!

 

[finchy]

Really can not quantify what is happening ...or is not happening. Last year when is was almost double the price there wasn't enough hours in the day, this year it's half the price with same if not better return it's not selling.

I recon put the prices back up to 12k for 16 panels...people obviously think its too cheap!

It would be nice to know % of Free solar of that weekly figure, I know someone on a previous thread said 70%. Which I can believe !

 

[finchy]

It appears so lightgen, foolish !! We're not selling spuds at Tesco's, can't see anyone having much of a sustainable business with the price quoted. Customers buy from us because we have been trading for over 10 years and plan to continue too!

Its a business not a pop-up shop ...

 

[Eco Deal]

what model of yingli & what inverter ?

Re the below:

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/source/fits/fits.aspx

We are offering 4kW Yingli @ £6199 but very quiet. This is with a 15% return. What's happening?

 

[ktech]

Hi fincy.I understand what you say we where selling 4kW at 13.5k last year but the market seems to have changed. Customers where demanding German panels etc. last year but now it seems to be all about price. Poly panels don't seem to be a problem - different customer different market?

 

[ktech]

ih MEP Yingli 250W mono £*** ppw with power one inverter.

 

[ktech]

I did speak to a distributor the other day and he sugested that a number of installers (down south) where quite happy to complete the job and get £500 profit ! I guess they won't be around for the warranty?

 

[ktech]

fincy, we are not a 'pop up shop' either just trying to keep workers employed and compete with the market. Tesco (i understand) are offering a 4kW system for 6500 ish, get real.

 

[finchy]

It's not the customers demanding price it's US, under pricing each other 4000+ installers chasing 70% of the 1000 installed last week (not free Solar).

Their is a minimum safe installation cost, jo public parting with anything over £1000 wants services/quality.

 

[ktech]

Fincy, I guess the market at the monent will prove you (and us) wrong or not?

 

[finchy]

Ktech we're on the same side ! Business is tough country wide...I just don't want to see what's left of the promising industry implode !!

 

[ktech]

I know what you mean. it's pritty crap out there at the moment. And from this weeks numbers not getting better. Somthing still tells me that if you stick with it them not so soon it may turn around?

 

[ktech]

It's intersting that you can offer a 15% return and even in this climate don't get takers! I had the usual City Link driver around today and he said it was very quiet (even after a bank holiday). People are not spending at the moment it would seem.

 

[finchy]

Sadly in order to survive generally in business you need to diversify.

However the good news is ... Gregs off promoting green businesses in Texas, not sure about the commute ......a bit out of touch comes to mind (AGAIN)!

 

[mdovey]

Really can not quantify what is happening ...or is not happening. Last year when is was almost double the price there wasn't enough hours in the day, this year it's half the price with same if not better return it's not selling.

I think it is a mixture of four things:

i) the pre-Dec dash, and the pre-April mini dashes will have pretty much resulted in anyone considering solar either having gone ahead or made a conscious decision not to bother. It will take time for demand to build again
ii) the EPC rating has reduced the potential customer base
iii) the mass media coverage concentrated on the FIT being halved (time to recover the initial outlay being doubled, return on investment being halved etc.). There hasn't been similar coverage on the falling prices so many will still think in terms of 18-20 years before the FIT can cover the initial outlay etc.
iv) the sudden dramatic drop in prices could seem to many either to mean that the solar industry was significantly over charging before (which doesn't encourage trust in the industry), or the current prices are just not sustainable (which doesn't encourage faith that the company will still be around when you get your first FIT cheque)

 

[ktech]

Greg is a horse. Like most of the government far too rich to care.

 

[dazzapsj1]

This horrible (normal nasty party) Tories do not have to be in bed with the Murdochs any more, because they have been in bed with the big 6 Energy Companies for the past year. You place your vote you gets your choice, please learn everyone, the Conservatives are for the Rich and Powerful not the likes of us. Rant over.

 

[Earthstore]

I have just read that the USA are going to spend $1b on a Ghost town so they can try out new technologies, from automated traffic lights, self flushing toilets, cars that drive themselves etc etc, Maybe Barking will come back with some good ideas, well surly he must have one in his career that is lawful....

 

[ktech]

Hi mdovey, the EPC as far as i'm concened is a complete paperwork game. Let's consider it: 4kw south facing puts 1 band on a south facing roof. We are just completing a 11kw install on a barn and it has absolutely no reason at all. Complete waste of time.

The sudden dramatic drop in prices, from our point of view, would be from reduced material cost and not employing dedicated sales 'people' and subcontractors.
The whole strategy of a business that provides a quality service with longevity has been lost due to the very bad handling of this whole system, in my view.

 

[SRE]

Really can not quantify what is happening ...or is not happening. Last year when is was almost double the price there wasn't enough hours in the day, this year it's half the price with same if not better return it's not selling.

I recon put the prices back up to 12k for 16 panels...people obviously think its too cheap!

It's nothing to do with ROI or cost. The public are totally confused - simples!

Those installers who can afford to ride the next few months out will be ok as the market stablisies next year. Those who don't understand the market, have no other business or funds will last a few more weeks/months and then fold because of the ridiculous prices being bandied around. No-one can work from a business plan selling 4kwp for 6.5k in today's climate unless you have a huge firm with loads of teams working on a stack em high sell em cheap principle and I don't know of a single installer who can do that.
How on earth will you manage in the winter months when there's no work and how can you service warranties if you've gone bust because your pricing didn't take into account slower periods and government cuts.

 

[ktech]

Hi Earthstone, if Greg is visiting a Ghost town I thing He should spend a little longer there to experience the pleasure.

 

[Earthstore]

It is not built yet, they plan to start it in June, it is going to cover 15sq miles, sorry I should have put city, not town...

 

[FB.]

As I said on another thread, a few major things may be causing a lack of interest:

1.
Frustration at having "missed out" on 43p.

2.
The threat of the withdrawal of 43p FiT brought many of 2012's purchases forward to November 2011.

3.
I hear that the rent-a-roofers are aggressively marketing - offering £200 comission to those already on the scheme for introducing new customers.

4.
Most people (including me) are wary of paying quite a lot of money to a company which they haven't dealt with before.
Worries such as:
Will the company run off with my money?
Is the company adequately qualified/trained/certified?
Will the company meet deadlines?
Will the job be done well?
Will the system work well?

 

[finchy]

Have you looked at the companies his gone out their with ! One of them is really suspect kiwipowered ... Read about the business just can't see how/who pays them is it a nice government contract handed out too ex hedge fund I mates ...and a jolly up in Texas - yah har !!

 

[ktech]

Greg Baker - not a clue - just enjoying the trip me things.

 

[ktech]

We employed 4 teams of 3 people last year (pre cut) =12. Now employ two people. Go figure

 

[FB.]

....and regarding my point 4 above (from earlier):

The company which did mine didn't let me down or disappoint me and the system has been functioning well, without any problems (and as a former scientist, I have been monitoring it quite closely).

So I would be happy to recommend the company to family or friends (but they aren't getting free advertising on here so I am not naming them!).

Because I have been happy with my system over the last several months, it gave a relative the confidence to deal with the same company.
Their installation was completed yesterday - and, again, it was a nice tidy job; excellent.

So now both myself and a relative would recommend the company. In fact, the company have my permission to give my email address to any prospective customer who would like to ask me a question.

Word of mouth from satisfied customers counts for a great deal when it comes to inspiring confidence. I expect that my word of mouth and that of my relatve will probably generate at least another couple of sales for the company.

 

[ktech]

Hi FB, I agree that word of mouth is an excellent advertisment. So why not do it publicy?

 

[moggy1968]

guys come on, this is a public forum! whats with all the business sensitive info!

If people are cutting their profits so slim that profit on an install can very quickly turn into a loss. One day delay due to bad wether, unexpected materials costs, panel broken in transit. very quickly your into a loss.

 

[FB.]

Hi FB, I agree that word of mouth is an excellent advertisment. So why not do it publicy?

Because with the market now being cut-throat, I expect that some people in the industry will do all they can to discredit their competitors.
Whichever company I named, there'd be someone come along with a scare story.

 

[LightGEN]

guys come on, this is a public forum! whats with all the business sensitive info!

I see nothing in this thread which I'd describe as business sensitive. On the contrary, i'd say that it's useful for the public to have sight of the thoughts of those involved in the industry and for the public to understand that it's very competitive out there - Businesses have bills and staff to pay, as such, thay have to make a profit, without which the business stops trading. I'm more than happy to have the idea that there are thousands of pounds of profit built into the cost of a PV system killed. The reality is that the retail price of a solar installation, covers the cost of the equipment supplied, the salaries of staff, other overheads and there's than a little bit left in the pot if everything goes well. That 'little bit' comes to hundreds of pounds not thousands and it's there to cover the cost of any future warranty claims and for the future wellfare of the business.

To quote a well know movie character "Thats all I have to say about that"

 

[moggy1968]

disscussing precise details of profit margins and wholesale pricing on a public forum is stupid. No business in their right mind publishes detailed information like this in a public arena. Most people who aren't involved in business have no idea of the costs involved in running a business or the justification for making profit. My folks run an opticians where I was a manager many years ago and the number of times people used to say 'surely it doesn't cost that much to make a pair of glasses' was unbelievable, many people really do have no idea.

The business overheads vary from business to business and from location to location and product to product so the information is also missleading.

discussing the squeeze on profits is one thing, but putting detailed informaion on wholesale prices and margins on a public website is ridiculous and a diservice to the industry as a whole.

 

[LightGEN]

Having re-read the thread, I see I'd missed the pricing post you mention - i agree on that point.

 

[moggy1968]

ta!!!!:wink5:

 

[moggy1968]

incidently, when I worked at the opticians, we never tried to compete with Tesco or Speccy****s on price. We couldn't hope to. We used qualified staff that cost money and we didn't have their buying power. We instead competed by offering a better service and higher standards. People came to us not because we were the cheapest, but because we were good, and we did well (the folks have now sold the business and retired). After I finished there I went repping for one of the biggest suppliers in the UK. Of the Opticians I visited the ones that were doing well were doing the same. The ones that were trying to compete with the big boys were in a state of perpetual financial collapse.
Try and compete with tesco and their ilk if you like, but personally I think it's the road to financial ruination

 

[dansk]

Try and compete with tesco and their ilk if you like, but personally I think it's the road to financial ruination

Never a more true word said - its a business not a charity, you need to earn enough profit to survive and cover little incidents otherwise whats the point?

 

[SRE]

..and just because Tesco are offering at that price doesn't mean they are selling. We pick up quite a few of their jobs.

1000 installs last week, 700 rumoured to be RAR, 300 private installs - it's not price that's the issue. It's confidence in the market and unsustainable prices encourage further cuts and more businesses to go bust.

It's time for a deep breath and to hold on, the market just needs to settle down a bit.

 

[dansk]

Not only the market but the country - were in a right old mess and its going to some sorting.