nuisence tripping rcd

[Grant1987]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

Simple answer NO! The reason you are upgrading and ensuring the installation is compliant with current regulations is because it makes the property safer (As long as you know what you’re doing) obviously changing from an old fuseboard which offers no additional protection always inherits the chance of rcd tripping but you should be capable of fault finding If you’re changing consumer units although many aren’t. I’m often called out to fault find when sparks can’t fault find

 

[goasis]

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD

MCB's same job as Fuses but with better tripping characteristics dependant on type (ie D, C. B) with regards to impedance of circuit.
Previous consumer unit, meal clad with rewirable fuses.
No obligation to replace the fuse box as it was in good condition as was the wiring in it ....and installed under the regulations at the time of installation.
Change of C/U = advisory only....NOT a legal obligation.
Progressive accumulative earth leakage currents totalling 22 mA....enough to trip the RCD.
Earth leakage currents checked with MEGGER DCM305E Clamp Meter.

Retired electrician ( just ) of 45 years
BTEC National in Electrical Engineering
BTEC national in Practical Electronics
Full 4 year apprenticeship. followed by 45 years of electrical engineering.
Earth leakage detection sometimes had to be adjusted due to damp in walls of substations causing tracking to earth and causing nuscience tripping where the environment couldn't be improved.
New fuse box checked and tested durin EICR check detailing the installation was safe and correct.
leakage currents appeared after.
If fuse box had not been changed, this issue would never have arisen.
The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Worked on, Isolated for others as a supervisory electrician on 3 PH AC distribution systems from 110v AC up to 6.6KV (rarely but experience on 11KV

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.
Al the regulation states is one must be "competent", not gas safe registered and must not do any work for financial gain.
Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience.

... An impressive cv..


What was the cause, and then solution to all the "tripping issues" you had initially when you changed the board?

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

This thread has to be a wind up?

If it's not, then the OP needs to get and wind up the handle on his Megger. And no, that's not a euphemism (but perhaps it should be).

 

[Vortigern]

The idea that you can only approach this problem by ripping up the carpets/floorboards fits with the experience you have detailed re your training/experience. I attended an extension half way through wiring with a view to finishing it off. It was done by an Electrical Engineer and although technically correct the installation approach was abysmal. Clearly you are not used to domestic type work.
So...it would be helpful for you to see that all the cable in the installation are accessible through the accessories i.e. sockets and ceiling roses etc. So if you proceed by removing the accessories (according to the circuit tripping) you can work on each separate cable, testing it to see if it is ok. Start by breaking the r.f.c. half way and test each side and see if there is any fault showing. Then work from there. I hope that is of help best of luck. I assume you have an MFT?

 

[pc1966]

You can hire MFT is you don't have one:

Electrical Installation Tester Hire

Electrical Installation Tester Hire: A range of earth testers, multifunction testers and installation test kits from Chauvin Arnoux, Megger and Metrel.

www.test-meter.co.uk

You can buy a low-current clamp ammeter for not much more:

Test Meter PRO TMP775 Earth Leakage Clamp Meter

Test Meter PRO TMP775 Earth Leakage Clamp Meter Specially designed for measuring AC earth leakage, the Test Meter PRO TMP775 Earth Leakage Clamp Meter offers a high resolution of 100µA and 3 ranges making it a great tool for general fault finding. Offering a low range of down to 200mA, a mid...

www.test-meter.co.uk

 

[DPG]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

Not if it is done to hide a known fault. The fault itself means that the system inherently doesn't comply with any version of the regulations.

 

[GBDamo]

As I see it, if your tennant receives an serious injury or worse due to electrics in that property there is a very high liklihood you're going to do time.

How on earth can you stand up in court and say "yes I knew of the fault but took steps to hide it rather than rectify it"

Get the RCD back in.

Then get some data on the fault.

Is it permanently tripping?

Is it intermittently tripping?

If permanently tripping a spark, with the right test gear will track it down in a few hours or less.

If its intermittently tripping then you're going to have to work with your tenant to build a picture of whats causing it.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm struggling to comprehend why anyone would want to hide a known fault, given the potential consequences of such a move. Genuinely stunned that someone with 45 years of industry experience is making the suggestion.

 

[Tony Reidy]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

Find and fix fault like any decent electrician would

 

[DPG]

I'm struggling to comprehend why anyone would want to hide a known fault, given the potential consequences of such a move. Genuinely stunned that someone with 45 years of industry experience is making the suggestion.

Same here. Scary.

 

[goasis]

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD


So you know they are different but you think they are interchangeable?

The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Yet despite this mess of an installation which also has caused alot of tripping issues (op) your assessment of it is "the wiring is all good"?

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

We're on 18th edition now

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.

I worry for your tenants.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I know we all take the mickey out of the domestic installers (which i am) and blame all poor work on these new domestic installers, but then you get an electrician of 45 years with all the qualifications asking if its ok to remove an RCD because it's tripping. I think there's just as many qualified electricians doing poor work as there are domestic installers.

To the OP, you just need to swallow your pride and put the safety of your tenants first and get an electrician in to find the fault which usually takes me around 2 - 3 hours.

I used to teach scuba diving 20 years ago. If I was to try it now I would put someone in danger. There's no shame in accepting you've lost some of the knowledge and skill. The shame would be doing something dangerous.

 

[Grant1987]

I know we all take the mickey out of the domestic installers (which i am) and blame all poor work on these new domestic installers, but then you get an electrician of 45 years with all the qualifications asking if its ok to remove an RCD because it's tripping. I think there's just as many qualified electricians doing poor work as there are domestic installers.

To the OP, you just need to swallow your pride and put the safety of your tenants first and get an electrician in to find the fault which usually takes me around 2 - 3 hours.

I used to teach scuba diving 20 years ago. If I was to try it now I would put someone in danger. There's no shame in accepting you've lost some of the knowledge and skill. The shame would be doing something dangerous.

Spot on there, I think it all comes down to training and the people that you have learnt/learning from and this forum is a good way to expand your knowledge and understanding and although we don’t all agree with eachother it’s all about learning and none of us will stop learning in this industry always evolving and changing

 

[telectrix]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

 

[James]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

Want to buy an rcbo pod for that board?

 

[Craighrvy]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

You can risk assess off RCDs for commercial properties, it's in the 18th edition. So, think about the risk, who is using the sockets, what's being plugged into it , has there been any issues there previously etc.

 

[BruceBanner]

This has got to be a mystery shopper ----take"!

 

[westward10]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

Maybe obsolete but still readily available.

 

[telectrix]

Maybe obsolete but still readily available.

not really looked into as yet. pointed out to shop owner. sockets only used by staff in back of a deli counter. above worktop, so minimal chance of damaged leads.

 

[GBDamo]

not really looked into as yet. pointed out to shop owner. sockets only used by staff in back of a deli counter. above worktop, so minimal chance of damaged leads.

If they are low load, RCD FCU radial, if not RCD metal clad sockets. Or is there a reason you've discounted these options?