nuisence tripping rcd

[kanewesley]

united kingdom...yorkshire

I rent a semi detached house out which was built 1970's

With the tenancy just changed i thought i would change the original fuse box to a modern one with rcd's and mcb's before he went in.

Even though there is no legal obligation to do so and the wiring is still good I did it.

I had loads of tripping probs when first installed as the maze of wiring which has evolved around the house probably had neutrals crossed (split C/U with 2 x rcd;s)

Finally got this all sorted and had the house EICR checked sucessfully.

The tenant has now been in a month and he informed me 2 days ago his sockets were tripping the rcd for that particular bank of mcb's.

I temporarily replaced the affected rcd with a double pole MCB and all was fine.

So with everything umplugged and the rcd back in, i attempted to find the offfending socket or piece of wiring what was tripping the rcd.

After 7 hours or disconnecting, testing, carpets up, floorboards up, decor damage around sockets I was getting nowhere.

AS the wiring to the house has evolved over time it was impossible to know which cable ran where so to get him back online and get the sockets, floorboards and carpets back before it got dark, I put in the 60A double pole mcb back in in place of the rcd.which was supplying that particular side of the C/U.



The rcd is 63A / 30mA.

Can I leave it like this with a 60A MCB in place of the rcd which supplied the sockets?

If I hadnt changed the fusebox for a newer C/U this problem would never have arose.

I understand rcd protection regulation applies to rewires and new installations.

This house has not been rewired nor is it a new installation so as the regulation is not retrospective can i leave the MCB in in place of the rcd.

At least it is better than it was as there are now mcb's rather than fuses and individual circuits now have their own MCB.

Another question, is it also an option to give rcd protection by installing say a 100mA rcd which is not as sensitive....this may hold.

To rive up every carpet and floorbaord in the house and move every bed and piece of furniture trying to physically follow the cabling is a mountain of work and disruption when fitting an mcb will stop this nuisence tripping.....

I wish I had left the old fusebox in.

Advice would be gratefully received.

Thank You

John

 

[DPG]

Are you really asking if you can take the RCD out because there is a fault in the wiring that causes it to trip?

 

[Rockingit]

John, I've just had a look at your profile and see that you're not a working electrician. Are you aware that changing a consumer unit is now something that falls under Part P of the building regulations and can only be done by a suitably registered installer? Also, I'd question the integrity of an EICR that has left such basic issues as these.

 

[Taylortwocities]

What have you been using for testing?

 

[DPG]

Could you post the EICR on here. With the names removed though. Might give some clues.

 

[goasis]

Are you the landlord or the electrician?
MCB's and RCD's function and operate differently, and protect against different types of fault. They are not interchangeable. The fact the Rcd is tripping indicates there is most likely a fault somewhere, just because you can't find it doesn't mean that you can just ignore it and remove the safety device that is in place.
What type of consumer unit was there in place before? You say there's no legal obligation, I'm sure there are some very stringent legal obligations for landlords when it comes to electrical safety. (the new change of tenancy eirc's for example)

 

[kanewesley]

Are you the landlord or the electrician?
MCB's and RCD's function and operate differently, and protect against different types of fault. They are not interchangeable. The fact the Rcd is tripping indicates there is most likely a fault somewhere, just because you can't find it doesn't mean that you can just ignore it and remove the safety device that is in place.
What type of consumer unit was there in place before? You say there's no legal obligation, I'm sure there are some very stringent legal obligations for landlords when it comes to electrical safety. (the new change of tenancy eirc's for example)

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD

MCB's same job as Fuses but with better tripping characteristics dependant on type (ie D, C. B) with regards to impedance of circuit.
Previous consumer unit, meal clad with rewirable fuses.
No obligation to replace the fuse box as it was in good condition as was the wiring in it ....and installed under the regulations at the time of installation.
Change of C/U = advisory only....NOT a legal obligation.
Progressive accumulative earth leakage currents totalling 22 mA....enough to trip the RCD.
Earth leakage currents checked with MEGGER DCM305E Clamp Meter.

Retired electrician ( just ) of 45 years
BTEC National in Electrical Engineering
BTEC national in Practical Electronics
Full 4 year apprenticeship. followed by 45 years of electrical engineering.
Earth leakage detection sometimes had to be adjusted due to damp in walls of substations causing tracking to earth and causing nuscience tripping where the environment couldn't be improved.
New fuse box checked and tested durin EICR check detailing the installation was safe and correct.
leakage currents appeared after.
If fuse box had not been changed, this issue would never have arisen.
The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Worked on, Isolated for others as a supervisory electrician on 3 PH AC distribution systems from 110v AC up to 6.6KV (rarely but experience on 11KV

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.
Al the regulation states is one must be "competent", not gas safe registered and must not do any work for financial gain.
Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience.

 

[DPG]

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD

MCB's same job as Fuses but with better tripping characteristics dependant on type (ie D, C. B) with regards to impedance of circuit.
Previous consumer unit, meal clad with rewirable fuses.
No obligation to replace the fuse box as it was in good condition as was the wiring in it ....and installed under the regulations at the time of installation.
Change of C/U = advisory only....NOT a legal obligation.
Progressive accumulative earth leakage currents totalling 22 mA....enough to trip the RCD.
Earth leakage currents checked with MEGGER DCM305E Clamp Meter.

Retired electrician ( just ) of 45 years
BTEC National in Electrical Engineering
BTEC national in Practical Electronics
Full 4 year apprenticeship. followed by 45 years of electrical engineering.
Earth leakage detection sometimes had to be adjusted due to damp in walls of substations causing tracking to earth and causing nuscience tripping where the environment couldn't be improved.
New fuse box checked and tested durin EICR check detailing the installation was safe and correct.
leakage currents appeared after.
If fuse box had not been changed, this issue would never have arisen.
The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Worked on, Isolated for others as a supervisory electrician on 3 PH AC distribution systems from 110v AC up to 6.6KV (rarely but experience on 11KV

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.
Al the regulation states is one must be "competent", not gas safe registered and must not do any work for financial gain.
Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience.

Regardless of all that, in your original post you propose leaving out an RCD because there is a fault on the system that trips it!!

 

[freddo]

I do not believe you should be attempting this work but what testing have you carried out?

 

[James]

ok, so I can see that you have a good understanding of electrical principals.
a good understanding of the regulations.

so In my humble opinion, because you have a fault that you are unable or unwilling to find, you are asking if it is ok to leave it without an rcd because it causes you problems that are difficult to overcome?

I would say NO that is not ok, it is a rented property and now you have found a fault, you are under a moral and legal duty to fix it.

by changing the consumer unit, you have accepted that each circuit you have energised from it is safe for continued usage.
Clearly this is not the case.

It might seem tough but, in my opinion you are putting peoples safety at risk because it is tricky to put right.

think about how you would argue your case in a coroners court, it would probably not go well.

Employ a registered electrician to do the job right, pay the bill and move on.
if he gets it wrong, you can then pass the blame and the costs back to them under liability insurance. otherwise it falls under your insurance (i presume you have insurance for electrical work in domestic properties)

 

[David Prosser]

If you removed the "fusebox" and replaced it with a new consumer unit then you should have test results to compare with. As this appears to be a new issue if you test the circuits it should be quite simple to find the problem.

You should not be replacing the RCD with an MCB. It is simply wrong, and non compliant with the regs. Return the RCD to it's rightful place and isolate the faulty circuit.

 

[kanewesley]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

 

[freddo]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

Testing the wiring to locate the fault, then rectifying the fault.

 

[Grant1987]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

You should be fault finding going in the correct testing schedule order, my assumption will either be crossed neutrals at consumer with this dual rcd board or low insulation resistance readings have you even done that?

 

[DPG]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

Seriously? Put the fuse box back because you can't find the fault? Remind me never to rent your house.

 

[pc1966]

It sounds like you have the background to do this, but are lacking either the test equipment or logical process to find the fault.

First step (at least for me) is you do an IR test on the circuit(s) on the offending RCD with everything unplugged / off. Checking both L to E and N to E, or do L+N to E if you are looking for a fast and safe check if there are LED lights, etc.

Also worth an early check is to see what current the RCD is actually tripping at, but a sensitive-fault RCD is not such a likely reason in practice.

If those test shows nothing suspicious then put the circuit back on and clamp the RCD lines with a meter that can read down to 10mA or less and see if the RCD has any legitimate reason to trip.

If nothing shows up then get all the appliances plugged back in and see if any of them has raised the leakage current to a point near the 15mA start of trip region.

 

[Craighrvy]

Having all the qualifications you have, I cant believe your asking if you can replace an rcd with a mcb if it's tripping and just leave it, why would you do that, especially in a place you are renting out. If its double pole it's more than likely just a linked main switch and not an mcb so it won't be protecting the circuits at all. Especially if it is supplying socket outlets you will never achieve the required disconnection times which is the whole point of changing the consumer unit in the first place. Your meant to be making the installation safer right? Your actually creating a bigger potential problem if you do that. As your the landlord and you installed it, it's on you to rectify it now. Don't think I would be able to sleep at night personally. I suggest dusting off the old insulation resistance tester and bell out all the legs of the ring circuit. You won't necessarily have to lift boards up if you can test it adequately. You say you found shared neutrals, how did you rectify that? Are you sure it's not something switching in on another circuit, are you sure it's not something which is plugged in?
If you had tested the installation before installing you would have found these faults before energising. That is the reason why we have a sequence of testing
All the qualifications doesn't mean you are competent to install in a domestic property. You should be notifying building control if doing it yourself and that will cost you the best part of £500 so I bet you haven't done that, so much more cost effictive to get a part p registered sparky to do it for you.

 

[nicebutdim]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

 

[David Prosser]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

In short no!

 

[nicebutdim]

In short no!

That seemed like the logical answer, but thought it was better to ask than to assume.

 

[Grant1987]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

Simple answer NO! The reason you are upgrading and ensuring the installation is compliant with current regulations is because it makes the property safer (As long as you know what you’re doing) obviously changing from an old fuseboard which offers no additional protection always inherits the chance of rcd tripping but you should be capable of fault finding If you’re changing consumer units although many aren’t. I’m often called out to fault find when sparks can’t fault find

 

[goasis]

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD

MCB's same job as Fuses but with better tripping characteristics dependant on type (ie D, C. B) with regards to impedance of circuit.
Previous consumer unit, meal clad with rewirable fuses.
No obligation to replace the fuse box as it was in good condition as was the wiring in it ....and installed under the regulations at the time of installation.
Change of C/U = advisory only....NOT a legal obligation.
Progressive accumulative earth leakage currents totalling 22 mA....enough to trip the RCD.
Earth leakage currents checked with MEGGER DCM305E Clamp Meter.

Retired electrician ( just ) of 45 years
BTEC National in Electrical Engineering
BTEC national in Practical Electronics
Full 4 year apprenticeship. followed by 45 years of electrical engineering.
Earth leakage detection sometimes had to be adjusted due to damp in walls of substations causing tracking to earth and causing nuscience tripping where the environment couldn't be improved.
New fuse box checked and tested durin EICR check detailing the installation was safe and correct.
leakage currents appeared after.
If fuse box had not been changed, this issue would never have arisen.
The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Worked on, Isolated for others as a supervisory electrician on 3 PH AC distribution systems from 110v AC up to 6.6KV (rarely but experience on 11KV

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.
Al the regulation states is one must be "competent", not gas safe registered and must not do any work for financial gain.
Competence is a combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience.

... An impressive cv..


What was the cause, and then solution to all the "tripping issues" you had initially when you changed the board?

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

This thread has to be a wind up?

If it's not, then the OP needs to get and wind up the handle on his Megger. And no, that's not a euphemism (but perhaps it should be).

 

[Vortigern]

The idea that you can only approach this problem by ripping up the carpets/floorboards fits with the experience you have detailed re your training/experience. I attended an extension half way through wiring with a view to finishing it off. It was done by an Electrical Engineer and although technically correct the installation approach was abysmal. Clearly you are not used to domestic type work.
So...it would be helpful for you to see that all the cable in the installation are accessible through the accessories i.e. sockets and ceiling roses etc. So if you proceed by removing the accessories (according to the circuit tripping) you can work on each separate cable, testing it to see if it is ok. Start by breaking the r.f.c. half way and test each side and see if there is any fault showing. Then work from there. I hope that is of help best of luck. I assume you have an MFT?

 

[pc1966]

You can hire MFT is you don't have one:

Electrical Installation Tester Hire

Electrical Installation Tester Hire: A range of earth testers, multifunction testers and installation test kits from Chauvin Arnoux, Megger and Metrel.

www.test-meter.co.uk

You can buy a low-current clamp ammeter for not much more:

Test Meter PRO TMP775 Earth Leakage Clamp Meter

Test Meter PRO TMP775 Earth Leakage Clamp Meter Specially designed for measuring AC earth leakage, the Test Meter PRO TMP775 Earth Leakage Clamp Meter offers a high resolution of 100µA and 3 ranges making it a great tool for general fault finding. Offering a low range of down to 200mA, a mid...

www.test-meter.co.uk

 

[DPG]

When an installation is upgraded and becomes compliant with current regulations are there any circumstances where it is deemed acceptable to remove certain aspects of that upgrade and revert back to compliance with an earlier edition of the wiring regulations?

I don't know the answer, but I'd be amazed if this was considered to be appropriate given the safety implications.

Not if it is done to hide a known fault. The fault itself means that the system inherently doesn't comply with any version of the regulations.

 

[GBDamo]

As I see it, if your tennant receives an serious injury or worse due to electrics in that property there is a very high liklihood you're going to do time.

How on earth can you stand up in court and say "yes I knew of the fault but took steps to hide it rather than rectify it"

Get the RCD back in.

Then get some data on the fault.

Is it permanently tripping?

Is it intermittently tripping?

If permanently tripping a spark, with the right test gear will track it down in a few hours or less.

If its intermittently tripping then you're going to have to work with your tenant to build a picture of whats causing it.

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm struggling to comprehend why anyone would want to hide a known fault, given the potential consequences of such a move. Genuinely stunned that someone with 45 years of industry experience is making the suggestion.

 

[Tony Reidy]

What do you suggest then.?

Ripping the house apart or putting the fusebox back in??

Find and fix fault like any decent electrician would

 

[DPG]

I'm struggling to comprehend why anyone would want to hide a known fault, given the potential consequences of such a move. Genuinely stunned that someone with 45 years of industry experience is making the suggestion.

Same here. Scary.

 

[goasis]

Mcb's = O/L trip.

RCD's = Earth leakage trip activated by an imbalance in the current flow between ph and N conductors detected by a torroid Tx, amplified and mechanically trip the RCD


So you know they are different but you think they are interchangeable?

The circuit in question is not simply an upstairs or downstairs ring which can be followed round the house but has one ring feeding both floors with radials spurred off it in every direction, and without out ripping every floorboard up in the house and every carpet....is impossible to determine the cable runs.

Yet despite this mess of an installation which also has caused alot of tripping issues (op) your assessment of it is "the wiring is all good"?

Completed a 16th edition course many years ago.

We're on 18th edition now

The consumer unit CAN be changed as long as it is inspected by a part P registered installer before energising.

One can also work on ones own gas installations legally even though not gas safe registered.

I worry for your tenants.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I know we all take the mickey out of the domestic installers (which i am) and blame all poor work on these new domestic installers, but then you get an electrician of 45 years with all the qualifications asking if its ok to remove an RCD because it's tripping. I think there's just as many qualified electricians doing poor work as there are domestic installers.

To the OP, you just need to swallow your pride and put the safety of your tenants first and get an electrician in to find the fault which usually takes me around 2 - 3 hours.

I used to teach scuba diving 20 years ago. If I was to try it now I would put someone in danger. There's no shame in accepting you've lost some of the knowledge and skill. The shame would be doing something dangerous.

 

[Grant1987]

I know we all take the mickey out of the domestic installers (which i am) and blame all poor work on these new domestic installers, but then you get an electrician of 45 years with all the qualifications asking if its ok to remove an RCD because it's tripping. I think there's just as many qualified electricians doing poor work as there are domestic installers.

To the OP, you just need to swallow your pride and put the safety of your tenants first and get an electrician in to find the fault which usually takes me around 2 - 3 hours.

I used to teach scuba diving 20 years ago. If I was to try it now I would put someone in danger. There's no shame in accepting you've lost some of the knowledge and skill. The shame would be doing something dangerous.

Spot on there, I think it all comes down to training and the people that you have learnt/learning from and this forum is a good way to expand your knowledge and understanding and although we don’t all agree with eachother it’s all about learning and none of us will stop learning in this industry always evolving and changing

 

[telectrix]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

 

[James]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

Want to buy an rcbo pod for that board?

 

[Craighrvy]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

You can risk assess off RCDs for commercial properties, it's in the 18th edition. So, think about the risk, who is using the sockets, what's being plugged into it , has there been any issues there previously etc.

 

[BruceBanner]

This has got to be a mystery shopper ----take"!

 

[westward10]

slightly off topic. but today i had to fit several double sockets into an existing RFC. (commercial, in a shop). obviously these need to be RCD protected to comply with current regs. no problem with the job as such, but the circuit as is is off a 3 phase board, MEM Shield 2 32A MCB. No possibility of changing to RCBO as obsolete. possible replace with differenf make RCBO, again not compliant, answers on a postcard.

Maybe obsolete but still readily available.

 

[telectrix]

Maybe obsolete but still readily available.

not really looked into as yet. pointed out to shop owner. sockets only used by staff in back of a deli counter. above worktop, so minimal chance of damaged leads.

 

[GBDamo]

not really looked into as yet. pointed out to shop owner. sockets only used by staff in back of a deli counter. above worktop, so minimal chance of damaged leads.

If they are low load, RCD FCU radial, if not RCD metal clad sockets. Or is there a reason you've discounted these options?

 

[telectrix]

If they are low load, RCD FCU radial, if not RCD metal clad sockets. Or is there a reason you've discounted these options?

cost would be as much, if not more, than fitting a Memshield 2 RCBO (cost around £40) so that's the option I gave him, also because ther are other existing sockets on the circuit, in different locations. Then the whole circuit is protected.

 

[westward10]

These things are not cheap new, second hand yes but I would opt for new. This is the cheapest I have seen from a quick scan plus you get forum member discount if signed up.

Eaton MR30 MEM Memshield 2 30MA Field Fit RCD Pod

The Eaton Memshield 2 MR30 RCBO Pod is a field fittable residual pod unit that can be added to any standard 1 pole or 1 pole + N Eaton MCB to create a complete RCBO.

www.electrical2go.co.uk

 

[freddo]

They are expensive, that's almost the same price as the fully loaded 10way dual RCD Hager consumer unit sold on the same website!

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

John, you absolute mad man. ?
[automerge]1599937805[/automerge]

These things are not cheap new, second hand yes but I would opt for new. This is the cheapest I have seen from a quick scan plus you get forum member discount if signed up.

Eaton MR30 MEM Memshield 2 30MA Field Fit RCD Pod

The Eaton Memshield 2 MR30 RCBO Pod is a field fittable residual pod unit that can be added to any standard 1 pole or 1 pole + N Eaton MCB to create a complete RCBO.

www.electrical2go.co.uk

Good price that. I had a nightmare with these once. Tested a Memshield 2 board and needed to add some RCD protection to 4 or 5 circuits. Went to fit the pods and they were blood the Memera MCBs that these don’t fit onto. Lesson learned that day to always check the type of breakers fitted into MEM S2 boards. Look exactly the same just say Memera on them.

 

[SparkyChick]

As this thread has gone off topic somewhat (amongst other reasons which should soon become self-evident).... CLOSED