Problems with a new solar install

[marc8]

Hi Heliosfa

looks like you may want to think about downloading Guide to PV on the MCS website this is free & will take you through the whole system from there i would say you have everything you need.
including RCD protection for system ECT.

hope it helps, i down loaded & printed just the other day 121 pages but worth the read.

 

[heliosfa]

looks like you may want to think about downloading Guide to PV on the MCS website this is free & will take you through the whole system from there i would say you have everything you need.

Thanks Marc - the MCS installation guide was very useful in preparing the complaint that was submitted.

 

[heliosfa]

Just to give a quick update: I have just had a NAPIT inspection where an "Independent Assessor" chosen by the company also attended. I wont go into too much detail at the moment but both agree that there are some significant issues that need resolving and it has been suggested that the system is left isolated till then.

I will give more updates as I get them.

 

[Earthstore]

Thank you for the update, I would believe that some will be interested in how you get this resolved and it may well help others in the future too.

 

[MCS Renewables]

And well done to NAPIT as well for getting an assessor/engineer to site to conduct an installation inspection .

I for one have been very critical of the MCS registration bodies and REAL so it's good to hear that at least NAPIT responds to customer complaints.

 

[dansk]

I had my NAPIT CPS audit yesterday and he told me reliably NAPIT are clamping down internally and with regards to complaints etc, so it seems to be starting.

 

[heliosfa]

OK, So I have just had a call from an electrician from the Company who wants to attend next week to "handle" the electrical issues:

• He will change the DC Isolator as a courtesy, as apparently the AC isolator they use is rated for 1000V.
• He will uprate the 2.5mm AC cable drop to 4mm.

Apparently, he won't be securing the cables under the panels as this is not required by the MCS regs (and DC cables are not covered by the wiring regs - I think this assettion is wrong, can anyone confirm please?) and the cables are double insulated.

• No mention was made regarding the missing RCD.
• No mention was made re. DC cable entry.
• No mention was made regarding missing documentation.

NAPIT have not provided me with a copy of the report, so I have no idea what is in it but what this guy was saying does not correspond to the issues pointed out by the NAPIT inspector and the company's own "independant assesor" who attended the inspection.

 

[MCS Renewables]

I would refuse to let them on site until you get a copy of the report from NAPIT.

I thought Project Solar we're going to totally remove your system and get it reinstalled properly !

 

[heliosfa]

I have emailed NAPIT asking for a copy again, I will call on Monday though.

as for rectification - you are correct, that was what was talked about with them and what their "independent assessor" said would happen.

ill get onto NAPIT tomorrow and see what is what.

just back to the cables under panels, any comments on them being outside the scope of building/wiring regs? The reason for not clipping them up is (apparently) it is very very difficult to do when attaching the panels.

 

[heliosfa]

OK, I have just received a copy of the findings from the NAPIT report and they broadly corespond to the issues that we identified here and that were in my report.

The differences:

• Report has identified that the tails to the PV DB are undersized and should be 25mm like rest of installation,
• The cable entry on the botom of the solar DB has been made too large and exceedes IP2X,
• Potentially missing a rotary AC isolator that can be locked off with a standard padlock (Depending on DNO),
• AC Cable unclipped in places in the loft,
• DC cables unsupported below inverter,
• Missing load, fixing and structural calculations,
• Company making reference to SAP calculations and old SAP disclaimer than than the new system,
• Inverter position in loft is probably appropriate as loft should be cooler with PV fitted,
• After inspection, weather sealing of brackets does not appear to be an issue.

The dangling DC cables have been picked up in the findings, so obviously should be corrected.

 

[pwboston]

The DC cables are unsupported below the inverter in the report. No mention of under the panels.

I doubt they will do anything with the ones under the panels.

 

[heliosfa]

The DC cables are unsupported below the inverter in the report. No mention of under the panels.

I don't think I was completely clear - the report from NAPIT mentions un-suppoirted DC cables below the inverter IN ADDITION to DC cables and connectors below the modules being unsupported. Report from NAPIT mentions BS 7671 522.8.4 and 522.8.5 as being the applicable sections of the wiring regs (despite being a member of the IET, I haven't shelled out on the wiring regs so I don't know what these points are).

I doubt they will do anything with the ones under the panels.

The report from NAPIT states that "..all identified issues must be rectified...", given that these are an identified issue, they must be rectified.

 

[pwboston]

Im going by your statement that they arent removing the system and refitting. To secure those cables means just that basically. They are going to have to scaffold and remove the panels etc.

 

[heliosfa]

Im going by your statement that they arent removing the system and refitting. To secure those cables means just that basically. They are going to have to scaffold and remove the panels etc.

Exactly, which is what they originally said they were going to do to fix this. I am just waiting to hear back from NAPIT on something and I will be contacting the company to discuss as all I have heard since the NAPIT visit is this contact with one of their maintenance electricians.

 

[heliosfa]

OK, more updates time - Two of their guys have been onsite since about 10am this morning and have just left for the evening. To their credit, these two were not rushing and were taking time and care with their work.

What they have done today:

• Replaced drop from loft with 4mm T&E, run in black conduit down outside of property and secured with cleats.
• Added dual-pole, rotary isolator between the "Solar DB" and the Generation Meter (The lack of this isolator was picked up by NAPIT as being a requirement of some DNOs who want a method of locking isolation with a standard padlock)
• Added all requisite labeling EXCEPT for the "Solar PV on Roof" warning required by the MCS Guidelines. This was not in the pack they had so they are going to try and get one for tomorrow.
• Replaced 2.5mm run from AC isolator in loft to inverter with 4mm flex.
• Replaced the single AC isolator used for DC with 2x isolators (I have not checked if these are DC or AC yet).
• Run DC cables down the wall in flexible conduit & secured with cleats as clips were not holding into wall.
• "fixed" the unused hole in the underlay with torch-on felt repair & sealant. They have done the same for the cable pass through the felt.
• Replaced the "Solar DB" cover as the cable entry hole in the bottom was too large.
• Actually carried out string & electrical testing.

Tomorrow they are going to secure the cables under the panels and check how the cable passes under the tiles I believe. My current concern is they have no scaf/ready-deck with them. The guy who was here today says he doesn't use them as they "give a false sense of safety", so it looks like they are intending to use ladders again... :S

 

[Ian-LS]

They are breaching health and safety regulations if they do this. Which can have a huge fine associated with it. It doesn't surprise me that they are cutting corners still.....

 

[Earthstore]

They are breaching health and safety regulations if they do this. Which can have a huge fine associated with it. It doesn't surprise me that they are cutting corners still.....

Added to this, which is of great importance, if you allow this and sombody gets hurt then you are jointly liable, something that I did not believe when I was informed until somebody showed me the legislation.

 

[heliosfa]

Added to this, which is of great importance, if you allow this and sombody gets hurt then you are jointly liable, something that I did not believe when I was informed until somebody showed me the legislation.

I was under that impression- have you got a link to/name of the relevant legislation? Just to give me something solid to stand on...

I am leaning towards telling them that they aren't going up and lifting panels off without the kit mentioned in the HSE guidance. In all honesty, I am surprised that they are letting this happen due to the fuss I made about the original team doing it.

I suppose the next step is working out how to say (diplomatically) that they aren't going up without harnesses, etc. without sounding like a wally. Any suggestions from anyone?

 

[Gavin A]

ladders and roof ladders could be ok if it were short duration work - ie if they can access the cables from the top and cable tie to the rail, which is possible - as would harnesses.

If they actually have to start lifting each panel to access the cables that would probably be the point where I'd think scaf would be needed.

You'll probably find they can access the cables from the top of the panels, and are basically using the top of the panels for support, which will maybe look more dangerous than it actually is.

There is also the issue with harnesses that they do create an additional trip hazard, and will be pretty awkward while working along the top of the panels, which is a valid concern, so personally if it were just retying the cables from the top, I'd probably opt for doing it without harnesses myself.

Hard to know for sure without actually assessing the job on site, but I'd not be so quick to judge on it tbh.

 

[Earthstore]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...=wsyYiLexF0LI_xVM3iKIJQ&bvm=bv.60157871,d.ZGU

Not sure if this will work
It does... 94 pages, page 8 states that you must make sure that the company you employ are competent....

 

[heliosfa]

You'll probably find they can access the cables from the top of the panels, and are basically using the top of the panels for support, which will maybe look more dangerous than it actually is.

Not easily Gavin - the roof is a hipped one with the whole facing full of panels as per pic below. The cables for the lower row are at the top of the row, so only accessible without the top row in place. They can only really get onto that roof if some of the panels are removed and from what he was saying this evening, they are planning to bring (at least) some of them down tomorrow.


View attachment 21713

Any more thoughts from anyone on this matter? the guys are planning to arrive tomorrow morning before their office opens.

It does... 94 pages, page 8 states that you must make sure that the company you employ are competent....

Thanks Earthstore, thats the NI version by the looks of it, but interesting reading.



Now, the plot has thickened a bit - I have just had to have a gas man call out as my boiler wasn't working (import & generation meter, etc are installed in the cupboard-under-the-stairs and you have to crawl under/past the boiler to get to them). The power light was flickering and it was making a sparking sound and "browning out" any time it tried to fire up. Boiler engineer turned up and said it sounds like a loose wire. On opening up the boiler, he found the neutral hanging on by a thread and the live completely free and arcing. The securing screws were still done up tight and there were strands in them so he says the flex has been yanked, which is not easy to do given its path. Sufficed to say, I am not a happy bunny...

 

[Earthstore]

Sorry, didn't notice that, but I can not imagine they are that different, maybe it is mandatory to wear a donkey jacket instead of a high vis and you can not go up there until you have had at least 6 pints of Guinness to settle your nerves....

It is your call though, whether you are happy for them to be up there with no safety kit or scaffold, or tell them that your brother is popping around who works for H&S as you do not consider it safe and as the customer you are equally liable should anything go wrong...... or some story like that.....

 

[Worcester]

Try Here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg33.pdf

See also this: http://www.cskills.org/uploads/GS001_Safe solar panel installation_tcm17-33755.pdf

 

[heliosfa]

Try Here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg33.pdf

See also this: http://www.cskills.org/uploads/GS001_Safe solar panel installation_tcm17-33755.pdf

Thanks Worcester - I have already thrown that guidance at the company in the report I sent them. So the fact it is being ignored again says something.

Sorry, didn't notice that, but I can not imagine they are that different, maybe it is mandatory to wear a donkey jacket instead of a high vis and you can not go up there until you have had at least 6 pints of Guinness to settle your nerves....

It is your call though, whether you are happy for them to be up there with no safety kit or scaffold, or tell them that your brother is popping around who works for H&S as you do not consider it safe and as the customer you are equally liable should anything go wrong...... or some story like that.....

Maybe the booze will make them bounce?

Seriously though, to dispell a myth, it looks like a home owner/normal person who pays a company to do work is not liable for their bad working - see here for some details on where a roofer tried to sue a homeowner who did not allow him to use the "safest" route to the roof and had a life-changing accident.

If they are taking panels off, I am definitely not happy for them to use a ladder and I will be putting a stop to it - whether that is by a call to the company, or maybe even the HSE concerns line, or me kicking them off site we'll see.

Their safety record is getting worse all the time though - the original mad roofer, leaving the install in a potentially dangerous state and seemingly managing to get my boiler into a dangerous state. Three strikes and they are out me thinks?

 

[Gavin A]

Short-duration work110 ‘Short-duration work’ means tasks that are measured in minutes rather
than hours. It includes tasks such as inspection, replacing a few tiles or minor
adjustment to a television aerial. It may not be reasonably practicable to install
safeguards such as a full independent scaffold or even edge protection for such
work, but you will need to provide something in its place. The decision on the
precautions to take will depend on an overall assessment of the risks involved. You
should consider:
■ duration of the work;
■ complexity of the work;
■ pitch of the roof;
■ condition of the roof;
■ type of roofing material (slate or tile);
■ weather conditions;
■ risk to those putting up edge protection; and
■ risk to other workers and the public.

111 The minimum requirements for short-duration work on a roof are:■ a safe means of access to the roof level; and
■ safe means of working on the roof, eg:
– on a sloping roof, a properly constructed and supported roof ladder; or
– on a flat roof without edge protection, a harness with a sufficiently short
lanyard, attached to a secured anchorage, that it prevents the wearer from
reaching a position from which they could fall.

If they can reach and clip the cables from below and above without needing to lift the panels, then it couldpossibly be classed as short duration work, however it looks to be rosemary tiles, so chances of achieving that on the top row without breaking a few tiles would be pretty slim - maybe with a roof ladder run from the front or something.

definitely safer and better to have scaffold mind.

This is why it's far better to do it properly in the first place, doesn't exactly take a lot of time to clip the cables up.

 

[heliosfa]

Yep, they are rosemary tiles. I am not sure how they would get a normal roof ladder on there without damaging the panels though given the panel coverage?

They only had one ladder on the van when they appeared today and it is not a roof ladder - it is currently in my back garden as they didn't want to reload it onto the roof bars.

Agreed that it should have been done properly in the first place, but then, they used a ladder and no safety kit then as well.

We will have to wait and see what they do in the morning.

 

[heliosfa]

OK, they arrived about 10 minutes ago and this is how he is doing the top row:

 

[Earthstore]

He wil need very long skinny arms to do the second row...
I will be amazed if he does not break a tile or two...

 

[heliosfa]

Right, so, they have ordered a scaf tower and in the mean time have gone to do a maintenance job over in Bournmouth.

Basically he seemed to be thinking of removing a panel (3rd from the left, bottom row) to get under the ones each side took out three of the bolts, and then stopped, thought and redid everything. He did, at one point during this, have a single point of contact with the ladder (unless chest counts) as he overreached to undo the top right bolt. I was about to put a stop to it when he stopped.

Just after I uploaded that photo earlier, I went back out and he had moved left to the lower row and said "I feel like I'm going to fall off" before deciding to come down. Weather is currently drizzly and the tiles look quite slippery.

 

[Earthstore]

One big plus for you is at least they are there trying to sort it, not that all these basic faults should have been there in the first place.