Discuss Problems with Solar Panel/Bilge Pump in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Ok. Did the test on the car battery. 12.6 no load. When I touch the pump a momentary jump to 12.7

Ah, it was the current that we were looking for, not the voltage. That won't change significantly on a car battery due to its low internal resistance. But the current will tell whether the old motor is damaged and therefore explain why it doesn't now work on the panel. If it takes more current under the same conditions, there are probably shorted turns on the armature or the commutator is damaged. That would tend to confirm that it has been overrun.
 
Ah, it was the current that we were looking for, not the voltage. That won't change significantly on a car battery due to its low internal resistance. But the current will tell whether the old motor is damaged and therefore explain why it doesn't now work on the panel. If it takes more current under the same conditions, there are probably shorted turns on the armature or the commutator is damaged. That would tend to confirm that it has been overrun.
Ah, that makes sense. Unfortunately my multimeter is fused at 200MA. So I can't really test current until I can get to the store.

But after testing and doing my limited thinking it got me wondering about the solar panels. First, they are only 30W. Looking at the motors, they are 12V 2.1A. So it needs 25.2 watts at max flow. It also supposed to be fused at 4A. Does this means it could draw 48W at times?

Also, I'm not sure how old these panels are. So maybe they just aren't producing as much.

Is there a way to test the panels to see how much they are still producing?

And would this be why the voltage drops to 7 when under the load of the pump?

Lastly, could running the pumps at the lower voltage damage them?
 
Ah, that makes sense. Unfortunately my multimeter is fused at 200MA. So I can't really test current until I can get to the store.

But after testing and doing my limited thinking it got me wondering about the solar panels. First, they are only 30W. Looking at the motors, they are 12V 2.1A. So it needs 25.2 watts at max flow. It also supposed to be fused at 4A. Does this means it could draw 48W at times?

Also, I'm not sure how old these panels are. So maybe they just aren't producing as much.

Is there a way to test the panels to see how much they are still producing?

And would this be why the voltage drops to 7 when under the load of the pump?

Lastly, could running the pumps at the lower voltage damage them?
If the motors aren't run at the rated voltage, give or take a few volts, then they are liable to get damaged.
Like Lucien said, you need to be able to measure the voltage and current to determine what's going on.
 
Marine and automotive electrical systems using a 12V battery operate at up to 14.2 - 14.4V when the engine is running, as this is the voltage required to charge the battery, Components such as motors are made to withstand this voltage. Conversely, when the engine is stopped and the battery partially discharged, giving say 11.5V, devices must still be able to operate even allowing for some voltage drop in the wiring. So most will still function, although not perhaps at nameplate performance, at 10-10.5V.

Lastly, could running the pumps at the lower voltage damage them?

Because the mechanical power absorbed by a centrifugal pump varies dramatically with speed, as the voltage (and hence speed) is reduced, the load on the motor reduces so much that the motor can continue to rotate down to quite a low voltage at which point the pump will deliver hardly any head or flow. The motor will not be harmed by this, so long as it keeps rotating.

There is a slight possibility of damage if the voltage is just low enough that the motor stalls. Then, the current (albeit much reduced) will flow through one spot on the commutator and one coil, and if the brush contact isn't ideal at that exact spot, might erode the commutator segment by arcing. Unlikely, because the current will be low, but outside the intended operation conditions of any normal small brush motor.

Note that the above is not true of all types of motor and load. There are situations in which reduced voltage can lead to overheating even while the motor is still doing its job.

Looking at the motors, they are 12V 2.1A. So it needs 25.2 watts at max flow. It also supposed to be fused at 4A. Does this means it could draw 48W at times?

Momentarily when starting from a standstill, if connected to a source of constant voltage and negligible resistance. A stationary motor generates no back-EMF, so the starting current will be the supply voltage divided by the winding resistance, usually many times higher than rated current. A large industrial DC motor cannot simply be switched on to the supply, it must be started through a resistance. A tiny motor like this has enough resistance of its own to be switched directly on to full voltage, but it will take a surge of current hence the need to provide a larger fuse. In fact the starting current is probably more than 4A but very brief. The manufacturer has probably proven through extensive testing that the specified 4A fuse represents a good compromise, being small enough to blow and prevent the motor catching fire if mechanically jammed, but large enough to avoid nuisance failures through repeated thermal cycling each time the pump starts.

With the solar panel, the maximum current will be limited so the motor will never achieve that sudden peak power consumption. Again thanks to the minimal power extracted by a centrifugal pump at low speed, it will still start on the panel's limited output, but just take a second longer to spin up. The same is not true of say an elevator motor, that must start from standstill with a deadweight torque that it must overcome before it can begin to accelerate, so it cannot ramp up from zero current.

To fully understand the behaviour, one needs to see the pump's torque/speed curves for various heads, and the solar panel's output curves, and crank them through some relatively complex mathematics. You would do that for a large solar-powered irrigation scheme but it's a bit far-fetched for a 360GPH bilge pump.
 
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Marine and automotive electrical systems using a 12V battery operate at up to 14.2 - 14.4V when the engine is running, as this is the voltage required to charge the battery, Components such as motors are made to withstand this voltage. Conversely, when the engine is stopped and the battery partially discharged, giving say 11.5V, devices must still be able to operate even allowing for some voltage drop in the wiring. So most will still function, although not perhaps at nameplate performance, at 10-10.5V.



Because the mechanical power absorbed by a centrifugal pump varies dramatically with speed, as the voltage (and hence speed) is reduced, the load on the motor reduces so much that the motor can continue to rotate down to quite a low voltage at which point the pump will deliver hardly any head or flow. The motor will not be harmed by this, so long as it keeps rotating.

There is a slight possibility of damage if the voltage is just low enough that the motor stalls. Then, the current (albeit much reduced) will flow through one spot on the commutator and one coil, and if the brush contact isn't ideal at that exact spot, might erode the commutator segment by arcing. Unlikely, because the current will be low, but outside the intended operation conditions of any normal small brush motor.

Note that the above is not true of all types of motor and load. There are situations in which reduced voltage can lead to overheating even while the motor is still doing its job.



Momentarily when starting from a standstill, if connected to a source of constant voltage and negligible resistance. A stationary motor generates no back-EMF, so the starting current will be the supply voltage divided by the winding resistance, usually many times higher than rated current. A large industrial DC motor cannot simply be switched on to the supply, it must be started through a resistance. A tiny motor like this has enough resistance of its own to be switched directly on to full voltage, but it will take a surge of current hence the need to provide a larger fuse. In fact the starting current is probably more than 4A but very brief. The manufacturer has probably proven through extensive testing that the specified 4A fuse represents a good compromise, being small enough to blow and prevent the motor catching fire if mechanically jammed, but large enough to avoid nuisance failures through repeated thermal cycling each time the pump starts.

With the solar panel, the maximum current will be limited so the motor will never achieve that sudden peak power consumption. Again thanks to the minimal power extracted by a centrifugal pump at low speed, it will still start on the panel's limited output, but just take a second longer to spin up. The same is not true of say an elevator motor, that must start from standstill with a deadweight torque that it must overcome before it can begin to accelerate, so it cannot ramp up from zero current.

To fully understand the behaviour, one needs to see the pump's torque/speed curves for various heads, and the solar panel's output curves, and crank them through some relatively complex mathematics. You would do that for a large solar-powered irrigation scheme but it's a bit far-fetched for a 360GPH bilge pump.
Thanks so much for the detailed response. This whole process has now turned into both getting everything up and running in a way that lasts, but also an opportunity to learn something new. So I appreciate it.

To sum up, seems like you are saying that the lower voltage is unlikely a problem. And would not be the cause of burning up 3 pumps in a week.

And I could also do some very in depth tests, but these seem silly for a $30 motor. Would this also be to figure out why it's pulling the voltage down to 7 volts? Or does that seem normal? That is a question that I'm still trying to figure out.

The other issue that hadn't been mention and I didn't think a lot about is sand getting in the motor and jamming it up. I'm assuming this could also kill the motor. Or...is the effect of this fire and not burning the motor up?

So my plan is to make a plan so the pump stays under water but away from the sand to hopefully keep from killing motors.

BUT...its also made me curious about if these solar panels have run their course and I need to get new ones. How can I test the panel and how well it is operating?
 
Thanks so much for the detailed response. This whole process has now turned into both getting everything up and running in a way that lasts, but also an opportunity to learn something new. So I appreciate it.

To sum up, seems like you are saying that the lower voltage is unlikely a problem. And would not be the cause of burning up 3 pumps in a week.

And I could also do some very in depth tests, but these seem silly for a $30 motor. Would this also be to figure out why it's pulling the voltage down to 7 volts? Or does that seem normal? That is a question that I'm still trying to figure out.

The other issue that hadn't been mention and I didn't think a lot about is sand getting in the motor and jamming it up. I'm assuming this could also kill the motor. Or...is the effect of this fire and not burning the motor up?

So my plan is to make a plan so the pump stays under water but away from the sand to hopefully keep from killing motors.

BUT...its also made me curious about if these solar panels have run their course and I need to get new ones. How can I test the panel and how well it is operating?
Jamming or stalling the motor will cause damage.

Ideally you need a variable power supply, variable load along with current and volt meter to give you the current /voltage curve of the panel and the motor.

The problem you have is the solar panels vary in output by quite a large margin depending on the amount of light.
Driving a motor directly from a solar panel isn't ideal.

There are lots of solar pumps for sale.


Alternatively, you could always drive something else other than a motor directly.
 
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Jamming or stalling the motor will cause damage.

Ideally you need a variable power supply, variable load along with current and volt meter to give you the current /voltage curve of the panel and the motor.

The problem you have is the solar panels vary in output by quite a large margin depending on the amount of light.
Driving a motor directly from a solar panel isn't ideal.

There are lots of solar pumps for sale.

Alternatively, you could always drive something else other than a motor directly.
I hadn't considered a pump like these that are marketed for fountains, but do the same thing. Definitely something to consider. Brings up the question, what makes these different than the setup I am running? Is it just that these have a voltage regulator?

We just got a regulator, so I'm wondering if this will make our setup the same as these solar fountain pumps? If so, don't want to invest in a whole new setup.
 
I hadn't considered a pump like these that are marketed for fountains, but do the same thing. Definitely something to consider. Brings up the question, what makes these different than the setup I am running? Is it just that these have a voltage regulator?

We just got a regulator, so I'm wondering if this will make our setup the same as these solar fountain pumps? If so, don't want to invest in a whole new setup.

The problem you have is the matching of the motor to the solar panel, the panel has to produce above 12v (assuming it's a 12v regulator) to be able to even run the motor.

I doubt that there is any regulation as such in those fountain ones, but the solar panels would be matched with the motors and would have some sort of current limiting.
 
The problem you have is the matching of the motor to the solar panel, the panel has to produce above 12v (assuming it's a 12v regulator) to be able to even run the motor.

I doubt that there is any regulation as such in those fountain ones, but the solar panels would be matched with the motors and would have some sort of current limiting.
I'm not fully understanding. The panel is a 12v panel, and has enough wattage to run this pump. Is there something else to also look at for matching them? Or is the panel just dying? If so, is there more to look at than voltage and wattage when purchasing a new one?
 
A '12V panel' indicates that is suitable for charging the battery of a 12V system; not that it will typically output 12V by itself. In a conventional DC power system, the voltage is defined by the battery and everything has to revolve around charging it at the correct rate, not overcharging etc. This requires all sorts of control and regulation mechanisms in alternators, chargers and solar controllers, but ultimately it is the battery that defines the voltage. When the panel is used without either battery or regulator, it will produce all sorts of voltages, from 23 or whatever open-circuit in bright sun, down to near zero when overloaded relative to whatever power is available at that level of illumination.

The pump would normally be used in a system with a voltage defined by a 12V battery, hence is compatible any voltage within the battery's working range say 10-14V. Behaviour and survival outside that range is not specified or guaranteed. It is not expected to work with supplies of high internal resistance, such as a panel without the benefit of a battery to 'buffer' it, because the voltage will vary widely with changes in load.

A suitably matched panel and pump might nevertheless behave in a reasonable manner, with the voltage never going so high as to cause damage. That might be what is inside cheaper ready-made solar fountains, where the manufacturer has chosen specific motors and solar cells to work correctly together. OTOH, basic PWM regulators are cheap enough to build into most products. They will probably have tried ten different panels and ten different motors and matched them to get the best bang for buck and most reliable operation. Otherwise, there is no telling what might happen to the voltage, absent the battery and regulator.
 

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