Prosecution

[tigerpaul]

We had our ECA assessor visit today and while we were chatting he mentioned a case in London where a contractor had done an apartment block. There was a fan in a bathroom which had gotten stuck and the motor had caught alight and caused a major fire. Everything he'd done was as per BS7671, except however he hadn't fused the fan down to 3A as per the fan manufacturers instructions. Now this contractor has been prosecuted.
Now how many times have you seem a bathroom fan fused down to 3A? I haven't at all, it's always just the 6A Mcb providing protection.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It does happen, there are the odd one or two that have been fused down.
I think I even may hace installed a couple.
It is rather rare though I must admit.
I don't suppose you know the name of the firm?

 

[KAS1]

This should make a very good discussion indeed.

 

[KAS1]

Perhaps he could of taken it from an immersion heater circuit, he might of got away with that lol

 

[Engineer54]

Don't know how they can be prosecuted, the fuse in a FCU or plug-top is not for the fans protection, only the lead or cord supplying it. Perhaps they should be prosecuting the manufacturer of the fan!! Far more likely this is just another tall story doing the rounds, or the story has been *******ised the further it went around!! lol!!

 

[tigerpaul]

No he didn't want to say the company name, just that they were a good firm and they'd had good working practises in other respects. Makes you wonder though doesn't it?

 

[tigerpaul]

He said that BS7671 states to follow the manufacturer instructions and that is where he cocked up. He didnt read them, just installed as he'd always done.

 

[Plonker 3]

No he didn't want to say the company name, just that they were a good firm and they'd had good working practises in other respects. Makes you wonder though doesn't it?

Why would he not want to name the firm? Unless there are extreme circumstances this information is avaianle publically anyway.

sounds like another tale like E54 says.

 

[tigerpaul]

Don't know mate but I didn't want to push him.

 

[valleybilly]

Any1 who negates manufac/installation instructions by using BS7671 as an excuse is going to be i a sh*t loda trouble on here then ! LOL

 

[KAS1]

Very well put I must congratulate you.................. I take my hat off to you as well

Don't know how they can be prosecuted, the fuse in a FCU or plug-top is not for the fans protection, only the lead or cord supplying it. Perhaps they should be prosecuting the manufacturer of the fan!! Far more likely this is just another tall story doing the rounds, or the story has been *******ised the further it went around!! lol!!

 

[markc123]

If thats true, which some have stated unlikley, that is incredibly harsh

 

[valleybilly]

134.1.1

 

[markc123]

BBC News - Lakanal House fire: Rafael Cervi's 'entire family' died

maybe this could be what the OP was talking about?

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Have never ever fused a fan down in my life.......might do now

 

[markc123]

Can't say i have either, although i fuse heaters down when wiring them from a FCU accordingly so no idea why i don't do a fan when i look at it that way lol

 

[tigerpaul]

I don't know if its that case in lakanal house, only what the ECA assessor said, which I already stated.
It's worth looking at the fan instruction now though I guess.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That Lakanal story is tragic.
I can't understand why they were on the phone rather than legging it down the stairs?

 

[markc123]

Im liking that post, as in i agree with what spin has said.

Tragic story. That poor fella lost everything.

 

[Silly Sausage]

That Lakanal story is tragic.
I can't understand why they were on the phone rather than legging it down the stairs?

Possibly trapped by smoke or fire.
Been there myself!

I think the cause of the Lakanal case was a faulty TV, listening to the radio earlier.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Question is would a 3a fuse rather than a 6a mcb have stopped the fan catching fire...somehow I doubt it.

 

[londonlec]

Sounds like manufacturers making our lives even harder. Its easier said than done installing 3a protection to existing wiring, all at minimal cost (because the customer wants the job done for 50p), and with no distruption.

 

[onions1066]

We have been through this with the niceic and we now have to code an unfused bathroom fan as a code 2, we've been doing this for a couple of years now and to be honest we come across it all the time, but yes we've been through this a few times on here manufactures instructions should be followed at all times and yes they do state 3 amp fuse for fans

 

[Marvo]

Question is would a 3a fuse rather than a 6a mcb have stopped the fan catching fire...somehow I doubt it.

I doubt it too. Most reputable makes of small extractor fan motor have sufficiently high impedance to prevent dangerous LRA currents in the case of failure. You often see it stated on motors that they're 'impedance protected' or something similar. That combined with the choice of non-combustion supporting plastic mouldings would be the best fire protection.

I'm also not comfortable with allowing manufacturers to dictate the configuration of the supply, even more so if you follow that above local best practices or written regulations.

 

[Plonker 3]

We have been through this with the niceic and we now have to code an unfused bathroom fan as a code 2, we've been doing this for a couple of years now and to be honest we come across it all the time, but yes we've been through this a few times on here manufactures instructions should be followed at all times and yes they do state 3 amp fuse for fans

How can you code something when the chances are the instructions are not available too you? Maybe note it if they are not available but can't see how it is a code 2.

Sorry my mistake yes I can its the NIC and they make the rules up.

 

[onions1066]

Unfortunately I don't make the rules, as far as they are concerned every fan should be fused end of, if they assess a job and its not and we don't note it they want to see where we got the information from that its not required.

They do make there own rules but that's because they can,

 

[snowhead]

From the States but still a fan;

Bathroom Fan Fires

 

[SYKRAPS]

And if the fuse blows how often would it be replaced by the house owner with a 3a one............not very often is my guess so then who is liable and how would the spark prove that they fitted a 3a fuse?

I understand fitting dp or 3p isolation for maintenance reasons though!!!

 

[Robert Turnbull]

Why isn't there a triple pole fan isolator with a fuse in it on the market?

Or if there is I've never seen one.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Why isn't there a triple pole fan isolator with a fuse in it on the market?

Or if there is I've never seen one.

I believe that there is.

 

[applemac]

there is one, better still if the fan manufactures could build a inline fuse holder or thermal cut out to stop all this booox
i heard of a cu with a 3amp mcb dedicated to supplying extractors?

 

[Guest55]

We have been through this with the niceic and we now have to code an unfused bathroom fan as a code 2

er , no you dont cos its complete nonsense lol.
so 99% of properties will now fail your EICR's then ?
that is truely money grabbing , regs bending , mind numbing baloney.

 

[Marvo]

If that's a multiple choice question I'll go with answer 'c' - mind numbing baloney

Edit
I might have been a little hasty, money grabbing also sounds possible.....bah I hate multiple choice...

 

[Deleted member 9648]

We have been through this with the niceic and we now have to code an unfused bathroom fan as a code 2, we've been doing this for a couple of years now and to be honest we come across it all the time, but yes we've been through this a few times on here manufactures instructions should be followed at all times and yes they do state 3 amp fuse for fans

Not something our NICEIC assessor has instructed us....and he goes through my EICR's with a microscope.

 

[vaughant]

Mine downstairs is fed from a fused spur with a 3a fuse?
Point taken on the customer changing it though,it could have blown once or twice then the guy stuck a 10a fuse in it as:
A) it was all he had
b) it stopped the missus moaning about the condensation in the babathrooms
c) all of the above.

 

[ayjay]

as vaughant says its better to fit a fused spur(3a fuse)

 

[Baker1988]

I have never heared of this I know your suppose to put a triple pole isolator outside of the bathroom but how you gonna fuse it down as well go straight from the triple pole isolator to the fuse spur it will look **** above your bathroom door

 

[Brett60]

I was told by my nic inspector that if we use fans with built in thermal overload protection you dont have to fuse down bellow 6A ??????????:smartass2:

 

[Plonker 3]

I was told by my nic inspector that if we use fans with built in thermal overload protection you dont have to fuse down bellow 6A ??????????:smartass2:

so NIC now also overrule any manufacturers instructions, they really are the font of all electrical knowledge now aren't they.

 

[ayjay]

you could use a dual box to mount the 2 plates, or as a previous poster said there maybye a triple pole switch with an inbuilt fuse available

 

[decolad69]

there is one, better still if the fan manufactures could build a inline fuse holder or thermal cut out to stop all this booox
i heard of a cu with a 3amp mcb dedicated to supplying extractors?

Totally agree with you, how do you fuse a fan at 3a which has a L/SWL from the bathroom light ? The last one I installed I wired the supply to the bathroom light via a FCU to protect both fan L and SWL.

 

[ayjay]

btw what type of fan are we discussing? one of those cheap £12- ones or something like a greendale
also if you energize a bathroom fan then jam the impellar does it get overheated and catch fire?

 

[durhamspark]

Hmmmm, so the ECA are making a bit of a push regarding 134.1.1 ? This presumably includes torquing of terminals in distribution boards ?

In other totally unrelated news, I see the ECA have started selling torque screwdriver sets.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

Why isn't there a triple pole fan isolator with a fuse in it on the market?

Or if there is I've never seen one.

I believe that there is.

I thought there might be but I've never know of one, but saying that I've never looked.

If this is something so important then all triple pole fan isolators should have this.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I thought there might be but I've never know of one, but saying that I've never looked.

If this is something so important then all triple pole fan isolators should have this.

How would that work though?....there's two lives.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

True 2 fuses lol

 

[Robert Turnbull]

How would that work though?....there's two lives.

On that note even a fused spur would be useless unless you fuse down the lighting for the room before you do the switching.

 

[Toonlad]

We could also try and instal a rcd socket, and chuck a 3A fuse in a plug and flex to the fan. Should more or less comply. Lol

In all i have never done a 3A fuse down on a bathroom fan, but what was the prosecutions findings and what was the fine ?? I know he didnt mention the company, but normally you get a tidbit of how much etc.

 

[telectrix]

i think most fans' instructions call for just the perm. L to be fused, not the s/l.

 

[richy3333]

On that note even a fused spur would be useless unless you fuse down the lighting for the room before you do the switching.

Sorry?