Pulling live meter tails from isolater switch in consumer unit

[Cbelectrics]

For all of those talking about the legality of working live, i am surprised. No where in the regs does it say you can not work live.

What it does say is that you should work dead and only live when unreasonable in all circumstances to work dead, all ppe measures should be used when working live.

So there admittedly is a can of worms as to what constitutes “unreasonable”.

Unreasonable can relate to time/cost/safety. If you have issues safety wise from the meter onwards that are a safety concern, then you are well within your right to work live.

For instance (i have had it before ), some numpty had installed the tails the wrong way round. So everything within the installation was of a reversed polarity. Immediate code 1 for the entire installation. More practical for me to work live and change those tails around at the ccu rather than the risk to the client while waiting for a dno response (council as well so another ball ache entirely time+safety wise).

 

[mainline]

For all of those talking about the legality of working live, i am surprised. No where in the regs does it say you can not work live.

What it does say is that you should work dead and only live when unreasonable in all circumstances to work dead, all ppe measures should be used when working live.

So there admittedly is a can of worms as to what constitutes “unreasonable”.

Unreasonable can relate to time/cost/safety. If you have issues safety wise from the meter onwards that are a safety concern, then you are well within your right to work live.

For instance (i have had it before ), some numpty had installed the tails the wrong way round. So everything within the installation was of a reversed polarity. Immediate code 1 for the entire installation. More practical for me to work live and change those tails around at the ccu rather than the risk to the client while waiting for a dno response (council as well so another ball ache entirely time+safety wise).

Were the tails from the head coloured correctly ?

No isolator fitted ?

If you could have pulled the main fuse, then taking a chance of working live within the consumer unit, I would consider to be unreasonable.

 

[Cbelectrics]

Were the tails from the head coloured correctly ?

No isolator fitted ?

If you could have pulled the main fuse, then taking a chance of working live within the consumer unit, I would consider to be unreasonable.

Not identified, not that identifying them made any difference to the polarity. You would still have the wrong cable in the wrong connection.

No access to the ryefield to pull the fuse.

Trust me i am not advocating working live when you can clearly work dead. Just pointing out in some instances you are allowed to and some consideration should be given to whether you should.

 

[oscar21]

Ah the old cutting the seals thread again.

So you fit the consumer unit, cut the seals and connect the tails.

Then the DNO police turn up, "Have you cut those seals sonny Jim?" Err no, not me guvnor. And that's where it ends.

I seriously doubt they will fish the seals out of the skip and forensically match the cut to your snips, even if they did there is still no evidence you made the cut, and even if there was you have only damaged a 10p seal, what would a judge say to that.

 

[Markyd]

I ring the dno which in my case is the SSE and they say im ok to pull the fuse
and my old boss used to cut the seals pull the fuse and throw the seals out the van window on the way home

 

[nicebutdim]

I ring the dno which in my case is the SSE and they say im ok to pull the fuse
and my old boss used to cut the seals pull the fuse and throw the seals out the van window on the way home

All well and good until the DNO check CCTV and request phone records in order to conduct a forensic search of your route home.

 

[James]

I have been incredibly fortunate,
Any time I have ever needed to work on tails, the seal wasn’t there when I turned up on site.
It must be more common than we think that they fall off.

 

[littlespark]

The seal fairy’s take them away and cash them in for scrap.


This is a 10 year old thread and the rules haven’t changed.

You do not work live if you do not need to.

Reverse polarity is a dangerous occurrence, special circumstance. You would be permitted to pull the fuse and rectify…. But I would photograph the evidence first.

If not able to access the fuses, then isolate the board, lock it off and start contacting whoever controls the meter cupboard to gain that access.

There is no valid reason or excuse to be working live in this day and age.


I will point put, as this is in the public forum, that working live is extremely dangerous.

 

[UNG]

For all of those talking about the legality of working live, i am surprised. No where in the regs does it say you can not work live.

So which regs are you referring too

What it does say is that you should work dead and only live when unreasonable in all circumstances to work dead, all ppe measures should be used when working live.

So there admittedly is a can of worms as to what constitutes “unreasonable”.

Unreasonable can relate to time/cost/safety.

From a health and safety point of view time and cost are not mitigating factors when risk assessing whether you should work live and demonstrates a lack of H&S knowledge when assessing the hazards

If you have issues safety wise from the meter onwards that are a safety concern, then you are well within your right to work live.

There is no right to work live it is a carefully considered and risk assessed decision on the part of the person who is carrying out the work based on their experience and capability

For instance (i have had it before ), some numpty had installed the tails the wrong way round. So everything within the installation was of a reversed polarity. Immediate code 1 for the entire installation. More practical for me to work live and change those tails around at the ccu rather than the risk to the client while waiting for a dno response (council as well so another ball ache entirely time+safety wise).

Not really a good example to use when the installation could have been isolated by pulling the DNO fuse, very few electricians have the appropriate PPE to work live and even less carry it as part of their day to day toolkit just because you have done it many times before only makes for complacency which could result in serious injury

Your profile says you are a trainee electrician which seems at odds with what you are advocating when many well experienced electricians don't like working live due to the respect they have for electricity and what can happen if it goes badly wrong

 

[Risteard]

For all of those talking about the legality of working live, i am surprised. No where in the regs does it say you can not work live.

What it does say is that you should work dead and only live when unreasonable in all circumstances to work dead, all ppe measures should be used when working live.

So there admittedly is a can of worms as to what constitutes “unreasonable”.

Unreasonable can relate to time/cost/safety. If you have issues safety wise from the meter onwards that are a safety concern, then you are well within your right to work live.

For instance (i have had it before ), some numpty had installed the tails the wrong way round. So everything within the installation was of a reversed polarity. Immediate code 1 for the entire installation. More practical for me to work live and change those tails around at the ccu rather than the risk to the client while waiting for a dno response (council as well so another ball ache entirely time+safety wise).

It's not simply a matter of it being unreasonable in all of the circumstances to work dead, it additionally must be reasonable to work at or near it live, and also suitable precautions must be taken. No point in only quoting one of the three absolute requirements in the law for live working.

 

[Simon47]

For instance (i have had it before ), some numpty had installed the tails the wrong way round. So everything within the installation was of a reversed polarity. Immediate code 1 for the entire installation. More practical for me to work live and change those tails around at the ccu rather than the risk to the client while waiting for a dno response (council as well so another ball ache entirely time+safety wise).

The ONLY reasonable option in that case is to pull the fuse to make dead. If not accessible, you call whoever and wait.

I have been incredibly fortunate,
Any time I have ever needed to work on tails, the seal wasn’t there when I turned up on site.

Two times I've had someone out they've not sealed the head. One was a contractor fitting an isolator at my home - I rang my supplier, they did it f.o.c. The other time was a DNO engineer who couldn't find any seals in his van.

From a health and safety point of view time and cost are not mitigating factors when risk assessing whether you should work live and demonstrates a lack of H&S knowledge when assessing the hazards

Actually in general time and cost are a consideration when assessing risk & avoidance/mitigation measures - hence the R in ALARP.
But, I've seen nothing in this thread where working live could be considered a reasonable course of action. I can't think of any normal situation where working live on a domestic supply could be considered to be the ALARP option.

 

[UNG]

Actually in general time and cost are a consideration when assessing risk & avoidance/mitigation measures - hence the R in ALARP.
But, I've seen nothing in this thread where working live could be considered a reasonable course of action. I can't think of any normal situation where working live on a domestic supply could be considered to be the ALARP option.

I think you need to reread the ALARP guidance as the R makes no reference to cost or time and references keeping risks As Low As Reasonably Practicable whilst costs are mentioned in the guidance this is only in connection with disproportionate and proportionate costs relative to the risk CBA for the situation

 

[Simon47]

And what is "reasonable" ? That is where time and cost are factors.
Taking things to extreme for dranatic effect ... We (mostly) have to have our cars tested (MoT Test) every year. At one extreme, the test could be scrapped altogether - that would clearly not reasonably mitigate the risks from faulty cars on the road. At the other extreme, we could need a test every week - which would clearly incur a time and cost penalty out of proportion to the risk being mitigated. For the time being, TPTB have decided that annually is a "reasonable" period.

Back to this discussion ...
Clearly working on live tails is not reasonable except for a few corner cases.
But if you argue time and cost aren't relevant then the only reasonable approach is to have the DNO come out and switch off the 11kV to the substation, and positively earth the outgoing service before allowing the service fuse to be pulled - how else do you positively ensure no conductor (including PEN) can become live while you are working. That would clearly be safer than just pulling the fuse - but the TIME and COST would be disproportionate to the level of risk being mitigated.
If the guidance for working on tails doesn't adequately cover these factors then that's not a problem with my understanding of ALARP. If you ignore time & cost then you are talking about AFAP - and that's a whole new can of worms.

 

[davesparks]

For instance (i have had it before ), some numpty had installed the tails the wrong way round. So everything within the installation was of a reversed polarity. Immediate code 1 for the entire installation.

No it isn't, it's a C2 if you are carrying out an EICR.

More practical for me to work live and change those tails around at the ccu rather than the risk to the client while waiting for a dno response (council as well so another ball ache entirely time+safety wise).

No it isn't, it is hardly an emergency situation requiring immediate action, you can take a couple of minutes to think about a reasonable and safe way to correct it.
Reversed polarity on the tails has probably been there a good few years and not become dangerous yet. The fact that you have now seen it and identified the potentially dangerous situation does not make it suddenly start killing people.

You can take a few minutes to stop and think rationally, find out who has the keys to access the ryefield board, arrange access and do the work safely.

And even if it has somehow become an immediately dangerous situation that needs emergency action just turn the installation off. That removes the danger and gives you time to think and make a safe plan to fix things.

 

[loz2754]

No it isn't, it's a C2 if you are carrying out an EICR

Not according to Electrical Safety First BPG4. 'Reverse polarity at the origin of the installation C1.'

 

[davesparks]

Not according to Electrical Safety First BPG4. 'Reverse polarity at the origin of the installation C1.'

What is the immediate danger?

 

[Simon47]

That there's no earth fault protection on the circuits ? That things "switched off" will be live ? That nothing has happened yet doesn't mean it isn't dangerous now.
If you think reversed tails should only be a C2, how would you code an installation with no fuses/MCBs - everything just wired to the bus bar ?

 

[davesparks]

That there's no earth fault protection on the circuits ? That things "switched off" will be live ? That nothing has happened yet doesn't mean it isn't dangerous now.

That is potential danger, not immediate danger. Something which is potentially dangerous is something that will become a danger if something else happens, such as a fault occuring.
This is why a lack of CPC, incorrect circuit protection etc are C2 items.

If you think reversed tails should only be a C2, how would you code an installation with no fuses/MCBs - everything just wired to the bus bar ?

That would be a C2 unless a fault is present, the danger of not having an OCPD is a potential danger, not an immediate danger.

C1, immediately dangerous, is for items which present an immediate danger without requiring a fault or similar to occur. An exposed live part, such as with a missing DB blank, is an immediate danger. An exposed part which will become live under fault conditions is potentially dangerous.

C1, C2, C3 does not represent levels of how bad you think something is, they are codes with clearly defined meanings.

 

[loz2754]

What is the immediate danger?

Good question. I think the reasoning is that there will be parts that are live that are reasonably expected not to be, even with the protective device switched off or the fuse removed. Whether this is classed as immediate danger seems to be open to interpretation.

 

[davesparks]

Good question. I think the reasoning is that there will be parts that are live that are reasonably expected not to be, even with the protective device switched off or the fuse removed.

Yes everything connected to the neutral bar at the DB will be at line voltage, but it will all be behind covers which needs to be deliberately removed before being touched.
The neutral is defined as being a live conductor and is protected from touch in normal use in the same way that a line conductor is.

The danger of touching the neutral bar of the DB would be immediate once the cover of the DB has been removed, but with the cover fitted the danger is only potentially there.

Whether this is classed as immediate danger seems to be open to interpretation.

I don't see how,
Immediate danger - you can touch it without removing any covers.
Potential danger - it's dangerous if you remove the cover.