RCD protection on multiple 3 phase machines

[Dave 85]

Hi guys

Just wanted to pick your brains on the following...
I've been doing some work in a Jaguar dealership and they've had a health and safety guy come around and recommend that all existing socket circuits and 3 phase car ramps should be given RCD protection. I have been asked to quote for said work.

Now we are looking at 10 3phase ramps and around 12 socket circuits fed from 4 different DB's (old brown square D ones) which are all 20 odd meters apart.

Ideally I wanted to replace at least 3 of the DB's so I could put RCBO protection on all socket circuits but I'm not sure what to do with the ramps....as far as I'm aware you cant get 3phase RCBO's??? and having an RCD main switch on each board seems like a very poor option.

One though is to replace the DB's, keep MCB's on the ramps but then install remote RCD isolators for each ramp. Obviously I'm trying to make this cost effective.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Spoon]

If only the workers of the factory are using the ramps and sockets then there is no need to add RCD's. I'll find the reg.

 

[Paultrim123321]

Are the non electrical workers(fitters) classed as competent users of electrical equipment? Brings out the old debate about competency? I'd argue not and RCD protection would be beneficial? But that's my opinion?
As for the lift, you need to refer to the installation methods etc

 

[snowhead]

If only the workers of the factory are using the ramps and sockets then there is no need to add RCD's. I'll find the reg.

If H&S want RCD then they won't settle for less regs or no regs.

For 3 phase RCBO see;

http://www.modbs.co.uk/news/archivestory.php/aid/11344/3-phase_RCBO_for_Eaton_92s_Memshield_3_.html

 

[snowhead]

Are the non electrical workers(fitters) classed as competent users of electrical equipment? Brings out the old debate about competency? I'd argue not and RCD protection would be beneficial? But that's my opinion?
As for the lift, you need to refer to the installation methods etc

It's Skilled or Instructed not competent.
A cleaner can be classed as Skilled or Instructed.

Yes RCD would still be beneficial tho.

 

[Spoon]

If H&S want RCD then they won't settle for less regs or no regs.

Well if they insist then let them have the RCD's. You can point out that according to reg 411.3.3 its not really needed as the workers should be classed as either skilled or instructed.

 

[Parker27]

First thing I would do, is find out what happens if you loose power to the lifts, does it drop?

What you could do is mount the 3 phase RCD's in adaptable boxes at the point where the ramp is plugged into the socket, and wire the RCD's into the sockets.

 

[snowhead]

First thing I would do, is find out what happens if you loose power to the lifts, does it drop?

No they don't drop.

 

[Dave 85]

Well if they insist then let them have the RCD's. You can point out that according to reg 411.3.3 its not really needed as the workers should be classed as either skilled or instructed.

Thanks Spoon. This did occur to me when discussing it and I did point out to them that RCD's in commercial premises were somewhat of a grey area. On the other hand if they insist on having the work done then I am happy to do it for them.
I may have to go back and do a bit of further investigation before quoting. I didn't for example, check weather the ramps take a neutral or just 3 phases.
It does make me laugh how these so called 'health and safety experts' can walk around wielding the power to make decisions well beyond their obviously limited knowledge.

 

[Spoon]

No they don't drop.

It would be a bad design if it did. Might be fun to watch, as long as you are not under it...

 

[Darkwood]

First thing I would do, is find out what happens if you loose power to the lifts, does it drop?

What you could do is mount the 3 phase RCD's in adaptable boxes at the point where the ramp is plugged into the socket, and wire the RCD's into the sockets.

So in a power cut all mechanics get crushed under their work hhhhmmm.. think that won't be the case!

 

[Spoon]

Thanks Spoon. This did occur to me when discussing it and I did point out to them that RCD's in commercial premises were somewhat of a grey area. On the other hand if they insist on having the work done then I am happy to do it for them.
I may have to go back and do a bit of further investigation before quoting. I didn't for example, check weather the ramps take a neutral or just 3 phases.
It does make me laugh how these so called 'health and safety experts' can walk around wielding the power to make decisions well beyond their obviously limited knowledge.

Anytime mate. As snowhead has said pointed out, H&S may insist, so just fit them. Some of the H&S people are ok but some just love the power that they have.

 

[Spoon]

So in a power cut all mechanics get crushed under their work hhhhmmm.. think that won't be the case!

it save you making them redundant...

 

[Knobhead]

Sockets I can understand RCD’s. Surely the ramps are fixed, it just doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Darkwood]

431.3.3 - note1
314.1(iv)
531.2.4

If the ramps are routinely serviced and are supplied via a fixed outlet not a plug/socket affair then their is no need for rcd protection, if however the ramps are portable and the run 400v flexes across the workshop floor then the socket outlets require rcd protection IMHO... if the motors on the ramps are VFD controlled then the above regulations will be contravened and alternative methods of powering the units need finding so flexes dont run across workshop.

The H&S quangos are a law unto themselves and unless you state throwing relevant reasons and regulations at them they dont want to know .... id also put to them that all cost incurred due to nuisance tripping of RCD's will be passed to them as they are stipulating measures beyond BS7671..... if they agree to anything you put forward ask for it in writing too as an amendment to their original wishes.

 

[Spoon]

Sockets I can understand RCD’s. Surely the ramps are fixed, it just doesn’t make any sense.

Im not saying RCD's are a bad thing here. Even with the sockets, the factory workers should only be using them for tools that they have been trained to use.. Just my opinion..

 

[Spoon]

id also put to them that all cost incurred due to nuisance tripping of RCD's will be passed to them as they are stipulating measures beyond BS7671..... if they agree to anything you put forward ask for it in writing too as an amendment to their original wishes.

That will make them think twice..

 

[Darkwood]

Next thing these quangos will insist on will be grounding on the Van De Graaf generators in the school science labs so no-one gets a shock!!!

 

[chrish_1977]

Is everyone missing the obvious here, run the supply in armoured to each ramp, and to previous posters, no the ramps don't drop hen the power is disconnected there are latching mechanism in place for just that.

 

[Knobhead]

Im not saying RCD's are a bad thing here. Even with the sockets, the factory workers should only be using them for tools that they have been trained to use.. Just my opinion..

I wasn't having a go at you, just the whole idea of RCD everything.

 

[Knobhead]

Next thing these quangos will insist on will be grounding on the Van De Graaf generators in the school science labs so no-one gets a shock!!!

No need for that. The schools can't use them now.

 

[Spoon]

I wasn't having a go at you, just the whole idea of RCD everything.

Sorry Tony. I know you wasnt having a go at me.... Its just the way I word things, it always comes across as aggressive... and im a little ----- cat really...

 

[Darkwood]

Is everyone missing the obvious here, run the supply in armoured to each ramp, and to previous posters, no the ramps don't drop hen the power is disconnected there are latching mechanism in place for just that.

What about 4 post portable rigs with trailer plug supply.... this is a case where i would have the supply covered just been to a garage and the S/Y extension lead 3ph/400v (Yes i know i took them out of service immediately) went across the workshop and was both damaged and had lost its earth.... the OP hasn't expressed the set-up but in general for fixed set-ups i see no need for rcd cover also most newer ramps have selv control power and only have LV to motor which is usually mechanically protected ... Also to note here is only the supply to the ramp is covered by the BS7671 the ramp itself isn't.

 

[Darkwood]

No need for that. The schools can't use them now.

Same set of toolheads that banned conkers i bet!

 

[telectrix]

and still recommend plug-in socket covers where children are.

 

[shagbite]

knock-a-door run & conkers; have you been reminiscing about your schooldays DW?

 

[telectrix]

and mustn't forget the full face protection in cookery class when mixing things like tea and water.

 

[Tiny Spark]

I dont see the point to be honest.
We recently had a similar issue but we said the staff who would be working with the equipment in question would be part of the engineering dept and therefore did not need the rcd protection.

However where we have had to rcd protect the 3 phase gear for whatever reason we have brought 3 phase socket outlets with built in rcbo's.

 

[telectrix]

bloody H&S madness. they'll be wanting scaffold to climb on the bog next.

 

[Spoon]

I just want to be a fly on the wall and see the expression on the H&S persons face when Dave goes along with darkwoods post 15, and states that he will add the RCD's when he receives a written demand for them from H&S and "all cost incurred due to nuisance tripping of RCD's will be passed to them as they are stipulating measures beyond BS7671"

 

[Dave 85]

Cheers for all the advice lads. I have quoted to install a couple of single phase C/U's with RCBO's to cover the socket circuits and a 3phase RCD in an enclosure for each car ramp. I'm gonna take another look before I agree to anything fully though.
With regards to weather or not the stuff should actually have RCD....interesting debate but considering they're insisting they want it I don't really see it as being my place to tell them they cant have it.

 

[Darkwood]

As the OP hasn't given enough detail about the full set-up there may be good reason for them to stipulate RCD protection ... like lack of maintenance or age and condition of ramps ...i hope he considers this before storming in like a bull in a china shop.

As ive said before the H&S asking for rcd protection can only be to the isolators and thus reasoning under BS7671 needs to be established.

They cant request rcd protection for the ramp under BS7671 because its falls outside the BS7671 but they may be utilising other regulations for which the ramps fall under but firstly i would be asking for specific regulations and codes of practice as putting a rcd on a 4motor ramp with inverter control would be asking for trouble even without inverter run motors their could be issues.

If the ramps are on plug tops then yes the sockets should be rcd covered as anything can be plugged in and run around the garage prone to damage but if hardwired id be asking a few questions.

 

[Darkwood]

Cheers for all the advice lads. I have quoted to install a couple of single phase C/U's with RCBO's to cover the socket circuits and a 3phase RCD in an enclosure for each car ramp. I'm gonna take another look before I agree to anything fully though.
With regards to weather or not the stuff should actually have RCD....interesting debate but considering they're insisting they want it I don't really see it as being my place to tell them they cant have it.

Not saying they can't have them just ask under what code of practice or regulation they are requesting rcd protection and also fitting rcd's may promote nuisance tripping which would be in breach of BS7671 ... are the ramps hard wired to isolators or direct to DB or are they on plug/socket assemblies?

 

[joel89]

surely the ramps have to be checked every 6 months anyway under LOLER ?? and theres no trailing cables like off a 13a sockets, seems over the top and pointless RCD'S on ramps.. what next?

 

[telectrix]

surely the ramps have to be checked every 6 months anyway under LOLER ?? and theres no trailing cables like off a 13a sockets, seems over the top and pointless RCD'S on ramps.. what next?

hard hats for motor mechanics, just in case a jubilee clip falls on the head.

 

[Brightspark2]

Ive had this exact same scenario about 6 months ago, an 'engineer' from there European head office visited and demanded all sockets including 32A,63A, sockets used for welding etc etc all be protected by RCD. We informed them this was not necessary but the 'engineers' word was final. He wanted them fitted. Its ok saying argue this and that but at the end of the day if we didnt do it they where just going to get someone else to do it and we'd lose the contract. So we got it done.

Where we couldnt install RCBO's we did as you say and installed RCD sockets or enclosures next to the equipment. Dont forget if there's no neutral you'll need a resistor to get the test button to work on the RCD.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Well said think you need to read your copy of the regs
If you have one ?????

 

[netblindpaul]

1st confession, I lost the will to live reading all replies.
The H&S person is DEFINITELY not from Her Majesties Health & Safety Executive.
I also very much doubt they are competent to comment on such things.
IF the ramps are bolted to the floor, and the wiring to them meets the requirements for BS7671 why RCD.
I can't understand why they are on plugs & sockets, unless they are portable which is a different kettle of fish.
Change the plugs & sockets to isolators and hard wire them, no need for RCD's.

If there is info given in the thread after page 2 I ain't read it the forum crashed so I could not be bothered!

I only know a handful of H&S consultants who are electrically competent, out of the 100's I know of.

 

[Brightspark2]

hard hats for motor mechanics, just in case a jubilee clip falls on the head.

It just gets worse doesnt it. They need to keep thinking of new rules to keep them in a job though!...

 

[davethsparky]

Same set of toolheads that banned conkers i bet!

Who banned conkers? you cant blame the HSE for that one.

Have a look here: Myth: Kids must wear goggles to play conkers

Just look through all the 'myth of the month' pages and the h+s mythbuster cases, its a very sad situation when the HSE are having to waste their time trying to undo the damage that the mini hitlers on a power trip have caused.

I think as far as the HSE go and the actual laws and requirements it is mostly quite sensible, its the idiots that misinterpret it all and shout loudly about how everything is banned that have ruined it.

 

[Tiny Spark]

So are kids still aloud to play British bulldog then?
That was a staple part of my break times entertainment LOL

 

[davethsparky]

Kids are doing whatever they want really, as kids have always done!

Doesn't take a genius to work out that the 'Health and safety AT WORK act' doesn't apply to kids who are a good few years off starting their first jobs!

What does in fact apply is the insurance company and teacher's massive fear of the compensation culture and the ambulance chasing blood sucking vampires (lawyers)

 

[netblindpaul]

Incompetent H&S advisor's also?...

 

[Engineer54]

Sounds to me as yet another reason, why you ''Don't'' see UK H&S Officers employed on any overseas contracts!! lol!!

 

[Marvo]

If the machines are on plug and socket then my local regs would require RCD protection. This is because generally machines on plugs are mobile with trailing cables therefore higher risk. If installed via an isolator that requirement falls away unless there's another special risk involved.

 

[davethsparky]

There is another special risk involved here, there is a significant risk of the mini hitler on a power trip having to give the place a clean bill of health if he doesn't find something ridiculous to put on his report.