Remarkable electric shock I experienced

[timhoward]

I was time constrained and in a hurry; and convinced of the concept of the "bird on a high tension wire" not getting shocked, and not troubling with turning off the breaker NOT putting on gloves

Have you actually read back what you wrote?
There’s enough in those few words for an employer to send you on a week long training course.

Why would you ever bank on any solid object completely isolating you from earth, and rely on that as a means of safety?

In my career I’ve once realised that I should be getting a shock and wasn’t. I’d turned the wrong thing off and stupidly didn’t check. It was a very hot day, a very dry concrete floor and a wooden ladder (which dates it!) saved me. My learning point was certainly NOT that in these circumstances I don’t need to bother isolating in future.

You can write as much as you want but nothing will change the fact that it was a foolish gambit in the first place.

 

[DPG]

"Delta" is engineering terminology for "difference" -whether 120vac and ground or whatever has a voltage difference in which current can potentially flow -in my circumstance the "delta V" existed on a single 120vac wire.... My guess is that "harmonics" on wires (seen often in commercial electrical wiring systems) generates heat due to the delta V of Harmonics in which multiple frequencies exist and so current will flow in a single "live" wire... -a concept my training never touched upon but nearly ended my life....

So more background on that troubleshooting and replacing a failed motor: Once determined the motor was bad, I cut the feed's "hot"/"live" wire with the same wire-Stripper and bare hands, then wire-nutted its exposed end and set it aside as I replaced the motor... all without being shocked, and my left hand only touching the "live" wire's insulation.

I know what delta means! I was referring to your theory involving that and harmonics.

A completed circuit was formed which incorporated you. I don't know how because I wasn't there. But current flow needs a circuit. You have not discovered some new aspect of electricity here.

 

[littlespark]

Different animals (and different individuals of the same animal) take electricity different ways…

Electric fences, although just a nuisance to cattle, can give some humans a good crack, but others don’t feel it at all. ( high voltage, no current)

A momentary brush against mains voltage (230 in UK) can give a human a short lived “tingle”…. The same tingle can kill a horse.


Maybe birds don’t feel electricity the same? I haven’t tested any.

I know squirrels don’t like 400v up their tail️

 

[timhoward]

You have not discovered some new aspect of electricity here.

If he had, then by his own reasoning there would be a heck of a lot of dead birds, and things like this would not be possible:

 

[westward10]

Electric fences work on the principle of limitation of discharge of energy, this used to be on the old Periodic Inspection Reports.

 

[plugsandsparks]

I don't think there is any mystery here. I guess most if not all have experienced a shock when are best laid plans of working safely fail. I have experienced one, similar to the OP in that , in theory, there was not supposed to be a route to earth. It was just a momentary brush against a live wire but the actually emotional "shock" made me pull back so hard and fast that i banged my elbow and that really hurt for days.

I had never thought of trying to work out why at that point i had created a circuit when in theory it should not have happened as i have enough knowledge to know that there is no such thing as infinite resistance on the planet, it always has a value, clearly the value at that time was enough to enable a small current to flow.

In the ops case i don't believe harmonics on an open cct will make any difference as the human body is mainly resistive, it is more likely he had a route to complete the cct he was unaware of, perhaps through earth or maybe he was leaning on the a/c unit, who knows ?

 

[R Blankenship]

I know what delta means! I was referring to your theory involving that and harmonics.

A completed circuit was formed which incorporated you. I don't know how because I wasn't there. But current flow needs a circuit. You have not discovered some new aspect of electricity here.

Harmonics and "dirty"/variant voltages are induced back into a wire from end-use equipment such as computers or can get impressed into the wire from nearby circuit flow, etc. These voltage differentials set up current flow that causes the wire to be heated up beyond what is expected by the circuit"s end-use loads...; and apparently-
(from the phenomenon I experienced with left Thumb and right index Finger resting on the wire-Stripper's metal touching a single 120vac live wire, less than an inch apart) is enough with these delta-Vs to cause a current to flow from Thumb and Index Finger and all parts in between (re.: Left hand, arm, chest, heart, right arm and hand) strong enough to lock up associated muscles and cause me to either force a fall from, walk down (and hope I can break the circuit) the Ladder to breaks its deadly grip or suffer electrocution.

 

[R Blankenship]

Have you actually read back what you wrote?
There’s enough in those few words for an employer to send you on a week long training course.

Why would you ever bank on any solid object completely isolating you from earth, and rely on that as a means of safety?

In my career I’ve once realised that I should be getting a shock and wasn’t. I’d turned the wrong thing off and stupidly didn’t check. It was a very hot day, a very dry concrete floor and a wooden ladder (which dates it!) saved me. My learning point was certainly NOT that in these circumstances I don’t need to bother isolating in future.

You can write as much as you want but nothing will change the fact that it was a foolish gambit in the first place.

The "circuit" I was in had NO ground potential -the circuit was as single 120vac "live" wire, the wire-Strippers metal touching the "live" wire, my left Thumb, hand, arm, chest, heart, right arm, hand, and index Finger (which was approximately an inch away from the left thumb both contacting on the wire-Stripper); all of which could feel the current FLOW, and associated muscles that were in turned locked/held fast to. The circuit was broken when I swung my legs sideways to topple the Ladder and induce my fall and break the current that flowed through and blistered both entry and exit points (re.: left Thumb and right index finger).

 

[timhoward]

The "circuit" I was in had NO ground potential

The circuit was broken when I swung my legs sideways to topple the Ladder

So the shock stopped when the current path to ground was interrupted.
If you can't see that the ladder was simply not the insulator you were hoping for / banking on, then I've nothing more to add.
I'd hoped to convince you that working like this isn't safe. It seems I'm not able to do that.

 

[westward10]

Several posts now removed, no more side tracking please.

 

[nicebutdim]

was NEVER discussed in any class or safety meeting that I have attended....

In any class or meeting was it ever suggested that you would be safe touching live conductors, while relying on fibreglass steps to insulate you from the general mass of earth? I'd be amazed if that was the case.

 

[nicebutdim]

My apology for taking so long to respond: In seeking an answer as to how I could get shocked on a single phase A/C live wire and birds do it all the time on an A/C high tension..., and also, to give workers a heads up..., here is what I have come to as an answer, that I can deduce: The "bird on a wire" sits on a live wire with a clean A/C [Generator produced, transformer distributed A/C] LIVE wire; where as, down the line, where end-use A/C lines have harmonics signals (such as Computer Systems) and other equipment (such as in the office where I received this shock/electrocution)... in which partially failed equipments' input rectifier circuits, etc. can "ping back", induce, or impress back onto the live wire harmonic sinusoidal signals, saw tooth, square wave, repetitive spike voltage signals that are at varying potential difference, all a single, live wire...; and this is what led to a potential difference that sent electricity through my hands, arms, chest and heart..., while leaving my lower torso and legs free to swing sideways to cause the ladder to tip over, me to fall to the floor and break the grip this current had on me... -The shock repition felt more like a saw-tooth, square wave of a rectifier circuit transformed up from some office eqiupments partially failed or poorly engineered input circuit..., thanAit felt like smooth sinusoidal A/C signal.... This concept and its possibility

[for a potential electrical shock..., and why bird's sitting on high-tension (A/C-generator-produced/xfrm transmitted Ckts) clean, isolated circuit... and why the bird does NOT get shocked]

was NEVER discussed in any class or safety meeting that I have attended....

Thanks for your kind response, to my experience, seeking answers, and wanting to alert other electrical Workers.
Richard L. Blankenship

Perhaps you might also consider the huge air gap between birds and the general mass of earth, which is where I suspect the real answer lies.

I don't know how things are in the US, but here in the UK I've never met anyone who would expect fibreglass steps to keep them safe from electric shock. Fairly recently I laughed at a colleague who received a minor shock while working on a lighting circuit from fibreglass steps. He foolisly assumed he was working on the same circuit as I was (he wasn't) and didn't bother to check if it was live (it was). He felt daft, but at no point did he express surprise that his steps didn't keep him safe as he would fully expect to receive a shock in those circumstances.

 

[R Blankenship]

The bird is completely isolated by the air, the OPs comparison is totally not applicable.

My apology for taking so long to respond: In seeking an answer as to how I could get shocked on a single phase A/C live wire and birds do it all the time on an A/C high tension..., and also, to give workers a heads up..., here is what I have come to as an answer, that I can deduce: The "bird on a wire" sits on a live wire with a clean A/C [Generator produced, transformer distributed A/C] LIVE wire; where as, down the line, where end-use A/C lines have harmonics signals (such as Computer Systems) and other equipment (such as in the office where I received this shock/electrocution)... in which partially failed equipments' input rectifier circuits, etc. can "ping back", induce, or impress back onto the live wire harmonic sinusoidal signals, saw tooth, square wave, repetitive spike voltage signals that are at varying potential difference, all a single, live wire...; and this is what led to a potential difference that sent electricity through my hands, arms, chest and heart..., while leaving my lower torso and legs free to swing sideways to cause the ladder to tip over, me to fall to the floor and break the grip this current had on me... -The shock repition felt more like a saw-tooth, square wave of a rectifier circuit transformed up from some office eqiupments partially failed or poorly engineered input circuit..., thanAit felt like smooth sinusoidal A/C signal.... This concept and its possibility

[for a potential electrical shock..., and why bird's sitting on high-tension (A/C-generator-produced/xfrm transmitted Ckts) clean, isolated circuit... and why the bird does NOT get shocked]

was NEVER discussed in any class or safety meeting that I have attended....

And as I said, I felt the current and its pathway between the upper jaw of the wire-Stripper (which is where my right index Finger sat) my hand, arm, chest, heart, other arm and hand..., and the lower wire-Stripper jaw where my left land's Thumb pressed against the Stipper to aid the cut insulation to be drawn off the clean Iive-Wire's 11/16" end, for mating to the motor's input-Lead wire... -NO missing, fraid or oxidized copper strands..., providing the Customer's equipment with a state of integrity and long-lasting motor service.

Richard L. Blankenship

 

[DPG]

This thread is just going round in circles. Like the electricity when you completed the circuit and received the shock.

This is nothing to do with harmonics, saw tooth waveforms, etc.

 

[westward10]

You are over thinking this. You worked on something live, somehow created a circuit through your body and got a shock.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is likely to be a duck.

 

[mainline]

My apology for taking so long to respond: In seeking an answer as to how I could get shocked on a single phase A/C live wire and birds do it all the time on an A/C high tension..., and also, to give workers a heads up..., here is what I have come to as an answer, that I can deduce: The "bird on a wire" sits on a live wire with a clean A/C [Generator produced, transformer distributed A/C] LIVE wire; where as, down the line, where end-use A/C lines have harmonics signals (such as Computer Systems) and other equipment (such as in the office where I received this shock/electrocution)... in which partially failed equipments' input rectifier circuits, etc. can "ping back", induce, or impress back onto the live wire harmonic sinusoidal signals, saw tooth, square wave, repetitive spike voltage signals that are at varying potential difference, all a single, live wire...; and this is what led to a potential difference that sent electricity through my hands, arms, chest and heart..., while leaving my lower torso and legs free to swing sideways to cause the ladder to tip over, me to fall to the floor and break the grip this current had on me... -The shock repition felt more like a saw-tooth, square wave of a rectifier circuit transformed up from some office eqiupments partially failed or poorly engineered input circuit..., thanAit felt like smooth sinusoidal A/C signal.... This concept and its possibility

[for a potential electrical shock..., and why bird's sitting on high-tension (A/C-generator-produced/xfrm transmitted Ckts) clean, isolated circuit... and why the bird does NOT get shocked]

was NEVER discussed in any class or safety meeting that I have attended....

And as I said, I felt the current and its pathway between the upper jaw of the wire-Stripper (which is where my right index Finger sat) my hand, arm, chest, heart, other arm and hand..., and the lower wire-Stripper jaw where my left land's Thumb pressed against the Stipper to aid the cut insulation to be drawn off the clean Iive-Wire's 11/16" end, for mating to the motor's input-Lead wire... -NO missing, fraid or oxidized copper strands..., providing the Customer's equipment with a state of integrity and long-lasting motor service.

Richard L. Blankenship

Not all fibreglass ladders / steps are non-conductive.

Were the ladder/steps wet ?

Were there any metal ends on them that were conductive ?.

If you were insulated from earth, then you wouldn't have had an electric shock.

 

[James]

There are devices out there that are guaranteed to protect you from a shock, they are often gloves or boots and are marked up as having been tested to provide protection up to a specified voltage.
if you are touching live cables or equipment then having suitable protection is the key.
no point in going round and round in circles, if you did receive a shock, it was due to the fact you touched something live and did not have suitable protection.

 

[R Blankenship]

If he had, then by his own reasoning there would be a heck of a lot of dead birds, and things like this would not be possible:
View attachment 110448

Tim Horward, my apology for taking so long before responding. In my early career a Linenan shared with me his experiencing grabbing with both hands a single "live", in operation, 69kv line while standing in his bucket-Truck's extended, isolated bucket -He said that it was vibrating..., but made no remark of whether it felt warm.... Your above pgotograph shows a higher voltage transmission line -maybe 138kv.

Here's what I concluded as to why an office's single 120vac cut but live wire could set up a current through my hands, arms, and chest..., but the man with both hands on a high tension wire and sitting on a helicopter's platform does not have a delta-V nor current flow through his hands, arms and chest: High Tension wires have clean sinusoidal AC voltage produced by a Generato, transformed and transmitted through transformers; where as in offices operating all sorts of electrical devices these end-use equipment can set up harmonics and/or have partially failed or poorly designed input rectifier-transformers circuits that can "ping-back", impress, induce multiple frequency sinusoidal harmonics, or sawtooth, square wave, or othet repetitive spike, variant voltage on a single line -And this is what hung me.... You could take a bird or a man sitting below a helicopter of a line with thes delta-V's and they too would be shocked by current flowing through their hands (or bird's feet) and Body.

This concept was not realized by me until this experience; although, I knew about harmonic that computers can set up and cause undue heating on "live" wires.

 

[westward10]

Unbelievable.

 

[DPG]

Tim Horward, my apology for taking so long before responding. In my early career a Linenan shared with me his experiencing grabbing with both hands a single "live", in operation, 69kv line while standing in his bucket-Truck's extended, isolated bucket -He said that it was vibrating..., but made no remark of whether it felt warm.... Your above pgotograph shows a higher voltage transmission line -maybe 138kv.

Here's what I concluded as to why an office's single 120vac cut but live wire could set up a current through my hands, arms, and chest..., but the man with both hands on a high tension wire and sitting on a helicopter's platform does not have a delta-V nor current flow through his hands, arms and chest: High Tension wires have clean sinusoidal AC voltage produced by a Generato, transformed and transmitted through transformers; where as in offices operating all sorts of electrical devices these end-use equipment can set up harmonics and/or have partially failed or poorly designed input rectifier-transformers circuits that can "ping-back", impress, induce multiple frequency sinusoidal harmonics, or sawtooth, square wave, or othet repetitive spike, variant voltage on a single line -And this is what hung me.... You could take a bird or a man sitting below a helicopter of a line with thes delta-V's and they too would be shocked by current flowing through their hands (or bird's feet) and Body.

This concept was not realized by me until this experience; although, I knew about harmonic that computers can set up and cause undue heating on "live" wires.

It is nothing to do with clean or dirty AC, or harmonics or saw tooth wave forms or bouncing pulses etc. It's just the well understood electrical circuit in which current flows.

I suspect you will still keep repeating the same thing over and over again though until someone agrees with you. I suspect this won't happen.