Seperate Circuit For Fridge/freezer !!

Discuss Seperate Circuit For Fridge/freezer !! in the Electrical Appliances Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Golden_Boy

Golden_Boy

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After returning from Greece after a two week break I found my Kitchen RCBO had tripped.:icon9:
However as I had the forsight to provide a dedicated circuit for the freezer all is well.:)
Why dont folk heed the advice and do this when having a rewire as a matter of course?
 
Golden_Boy said:
After returning from Greece after a two week break I found my Kitchen RCBO had tripped.:icon9:
However as I had the forsight to provide a dedicated circuit for the freezer all is well.:)
Why dont folk heed the advice and do this when having a rewire as a matter of course?
Click to expand...

Did you find why it tripped. I could understand an RCD going out that covered multiple circuits, but an RCBO tripping would indicate to me a fault situation.
 
GLENNSPARK said:
Just interpreting the regs brizo....all circuits buried at a depth of less than 50mm and not having suitable mechanical protection from nails, screws and the like...to be given additional protection by meens of an rcd with a max residual opperating current 30mA.
Click to expand...

Just how far does that extend??

Surface mounting is fine, but I presume that at some point the cable has to go through a wall, is it not then bound by that reg and would still need RCD protection??

Cheers
 
Am I right in thinking that in the new amendments of the 17th all final circuits require RCD protection regardless of installation method? or was that wholesaler counter banter?
 
Well since the advent of the 16th split load board, I've always prefered to place fridges and freezers, along with cookers on separate non-RCD protected circuits.
The introduction of more stringent requirements for RCD protection, does not now make me want to change my preferences.
 
cut the plug off the freezer and wire it into a connection unit. Therefore no one can moan about the socket being used for other purposes. Put the freezer in the dedicated freezer house outside the main house. Get the owner to sign sommat to accept that he is now an "instructed person" and accepts full responsibility for management of the freezer room and it's use :)
 
The use of the FSU would do away with the requirement for the RCBO / RCD protection - makes sense.
I was on a RECI course recently and a few of the sparks were giving out about having to use a RCBO for the freezer, the RECI guy was kindda insisting it was a reqirement under the ETCI regs.
 
There's no point in using an FCU.
BS7671 only requires socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons to have RCD protection.
If a socket-outlet is intended for use with a specific appliance, such as a fridge, freezer, washing machine, etc. even a TV, Sky box or a computer, there is no requirement for it to be RCD protected.
Of course, if the cable supplying a socket-outlet is concealed in a wall, then that's another matter.
As forgetting a house holder to sign something stating they are an skilled or instructed person.
It wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on.
BS7671 allows for skilled or instructed persons in commercial/industrial installations, because legislation (EAWR) requires that they be so.
There is no legislation requiring any one using a domestic installation to be skilled or instructed.
 
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I go down the RCBO route for freezers and smoke alarms. But i always install a non rcd protected socket, usually a twin directly at the side of the consumer unit, then if the RCD or whatever does have a tantrum the the customer has a get out of jail card if i have been drinking etc and cant get there tonight. I do this irrespective of the Consumer unit location and make a note to the effect on the EIC of "Socket adjacent to Consumer unit is for emergency use only and has no RCD protection, and must under no circumstance be used to power appliances outside without the use of a plugin or similar Residual Current Device". I have been doing this forever, and even the Elecsa assessor thought it was a good idea on one of the jobs i was assessed on a year or 3 back. I know it doesn't help if the householder is away, but they could always plug the freezer into it for the duration of their abscence.

Cheers.........Howard
 
GLENNSPARK said:
With the greatest respect circuit why do you put smokes and heats on an rcbo? I thought it was classed as a safety circuit and so wouldn`t it be ok to pull a feed from a lighting way? The theory being that if the lights go out then so does the feed to the smokes. It would be unreasonable for people to walk around in the dark? My theory may be wrong...
Click to expand...

As far as i am aware you can do either. On a new install i put a seperate circuit in for the smokes and use a dedicated RCBO so that if one of the RCD banks goes down the smoke alarms dont. If i retrofit and cant shove a new circuit in then i tap into the lighting as you say and then fit RF bases. I would much prefer to put smokes on a MCB with no bloody RCD but we cant unfortunately unless we move heaven and earth digging out walls or any other ways and means at our disposal to comply with the regs. I think the "Using a normally used lighting circuit" has something to do with the MCB rating of the light circuit, and if the lights have power then so do the alarms, but the alarms have a green indicator light anyway to show they have power.

Cheers...........Howard
 
davelerave said:
i don't rcd freezers on new work

i'll be keeping the fire risk from fridges and freezers at the back of my mind anymore when installing smoke alarms
Danfoss warns UK public of fridge and freezer fire risk
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/05/beko-fridge-freezer-fire-warning

don't know if the 30mA would protect on any of these faults-apparently they go up like a bonfire
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Believe it or not I have a Hotpoint fridge that we bought in 1990 that is still in the kitchen today and still works a treat. I pulled it out and low and behold a yellow danfoss sticker on the compressor. I have sent them an email and hopfully it will get sorted (a nice new fridge would be nice but i wont hold my breath) dont worry i have smoke alarms and an RCD protected circuit.
 
Lighthouse Phil said:
The use of the FSU would do away with the requirement for the RCBO / RCD protection - makes sense.I was on a RECI course recently and a few of the sparks were giving out about having to use a RCBO for the freezer, the RECI guy was kindda insisting it was a reqirement under the ETCI regs.
Click to expand...


no they're mistaken phil

ET 101:2008 page 308 (irish rules)

in order to improve the reliability of the supply to freezers and similar appliances,either of the following 2 methods of supply may be applied

1-a fixed outlet from a circuit not protected by an rcd

2-a dedicated socket-outlet circuit protected by it's own separate rcd
 
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SPARTYKUS said:
cut the plug off the freezer and wire it into a connection unit. Therefore no one can moan about the socket being used for other purposes. Put the freezer in the dedicated freezer house outside the main house. Get the owner to sign sommat to accept that he is now an "instructed person" and accepts full responsibility for management of the freezer room and it's use :)
Click to expand...

Yeah but then you void the warranty of the appliance
 
i looked at a website a good while back -where they stated removing plugs voids warranty

suppose they'd have to back it up in court

i'll see if i can dig up the link again
 
" A Comet approved engineer"

He'll be nowt more than someone who may have done the 2377.


I hold with contempt the way 'engineer' is bounded around so loosely by all and sundry these days!!!
 
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I think if you fought the issue in a court,you will win,we can cut them off,however, here are some views I found that gives a negative opinion


Comet
Removing a moulded plug from an appliance will void any guarantee, warranty or Service Plan held on the product.

Appliance engineer opinion
This will could invalidate the warranty, legally the plug, being moulded onto the appliance lead, is part of the appliance, and it could be argued successfully that you are modifying the applicance and thus in breach of the warranty as you are

1: Not qualified to do so.
( I cant see this applying to sparks)
2: Not authorised to do so.
3: Changing the appliances electrical designation in law.



Good question which should be known ,but isn't clear cut
Ah I see the comet one was already posted
I am staying with my opinion that its a load of bunk
 
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scaremongering!

I'll carry on cutting them off!

BTW has anyone ever seen or heard of this phenomenon being substantiated? As in a warranty being voided because the electrician cut the plug off.
 
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ya i reckon they can't back it up in court

but could be messy if one of their engineers:19: calls and initially claims the electrician has invalidated the warranty
 
I'm with Dave here, I'm sure I would not want to put this to a test on perhaps a 1k television or something as I'm sure the nice people of comet when told, well the electriciansforum said it is ok, they will hold their hands up and say fair enough.

I can see the exact opposite to be honest.
 
Let's take that 1k LCD TV as an example. You have cast in wall conduits to run all leads from behind your wall mounted TV, so as not to have an unsightly mess of cables hanging down the wall.


Is it not reasonable to cut that moulded plug from the lead in order to pass that lead thru the provided conduit and replace with a standard plug top?? Of course it's reasonable, i doubt if any warranties have been voided in the real world by cutting a moulded plug off a lead. There legal dept would wouldn't be happy fighting such a case either!!!


Wasn't there a member here who's wife deals with this type of law, and has often quoted her about this would not void any such domestic appliance warranty?? Just can't remember who it was now!!!
 
Lenny said:
YES....you're right, there was.

I'll have a search.
Click to expand...

paul.m :D

You don't invalidate the warranty if you cut the moulded plug off. The only way you can invalidate the warranty is if whatever you did to the appliance that caused the fault. Cut the plug and fit an unswitched fcu as above. Ps my wife deals with warranty claims for a world wide company so my info is correct.
Click to expand...
 
It's just a matter of unscrupulous companies including unenforceable/unlawful clauses into warranties, in a bid to void warranties, and/or gain call out fee's and the like... Basically scaremongery at it's worst!!!
 
Though so, i am sure i have seen instructions that read some like if the plug does not fit you sockets cut it off and remove the fuse and dispose of it safely.
 
In Cyprus, they use the British 13A plug and socket as there standard small power system exactly the same as in the UK. However, i'd say 80% or more of the appliances sold in Cyprus have European style plug tops attached to them. Totally illegal according to EU rules and regulations, that basically state, ...Any electrical appliance sold within the EU must be provided with a suitable plug top for the final country of use'' So the only thing you can do is cut the provided plug top from the lead.

All of these appliance outlets know of this EU law but choose to ignore it when the price is right. Some shops will give you an adaptor, for these European plug tops ...but there not exactly safe to use, as they allow the 2 pin and the 2 pin with scrapping earth plug tops to be inserted with the wrong polarity, as all are non polarized plug tops!!!

Ooooops, sorry gone a little of base here...lol!!! But i hope you get my drift as to why it's a nonsense to void a warranty by cutting a moulded plug from it's lead...
 
GLENNSPARK said:
Why cant it all go back to each country in europe having its own styles of plug,own laws, own currency etc.....
Click to expand...

I can't speak for the south, but northern Cyprus has a similar electrical set-up/supply. It dates back to when the Island was under British rule. When the Island was handed back by Britain rather than adopting their own countries electrical set-up they (Turkish-Cypriots) continued to use the UK one. They also drive on the left etc.

Back on thread - A shop/supplier could not void a warranty for cutting a moulded plug off a cable unless the removal of the moulded plug had a direct cause/correlation to the failure of the appliance. As for the Comet comment saying that it invalidates your consumer rights under Sales of Goods legislation is laughable.
 
I meant to say, I've created dedicated 'freezer' circuits before and rather than connect into a FSU, cutting the plug off I just labelled the socket and marked the certificate appropriately as such and that the customer had been instructed. My NICEIC assessor was more than happy with what I'd done (and before we go off at a tangent about the NICEIC - he was very thorough with his assessment, lasted 12 hours!)
 
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