Shower Circuit Spur- PIR

[monkeyhanger]

Will be carrying out PIR on a block of 6 flats + communal electrics which are fed from own board but doubled up with tails in board for flat 3.

Using standard 17th ed sheets off the net, for the paperwork do I need the cover sheets, a sched of inspections then test results sheet for each board (as seperate on and off peak boards for each flat) or can I put both boards on one set of sheets, for each flat? Some off peaks are only 1 way & then 4 ways on peak!

The 6 flats are spread over all 3 phases.

Also- another electrician has very recently installed downflow heaters in every flat (apparantly, I've only been in 1 flat). They are fed from the shower pull switch, unknown cable trunked across ceiling to surface mounted DP switched fused spur isolator. I didn't think you were allowed to spur off from a shower circuit for something else?

If the circuits wont be overloaded with shower + heater on, can I just say does not comply (but satisfactory)? Although its not something I'd like to see, I don't want to insist that the setup has to be changed and incur the landlord more expense, as its somebody I'm trying to 'get in with' who seems to have some knowledge of the trade (does make me wonder if they have put the heaters in themselves).

Any advice is much appreciated, thanks lads.

Sorry if thats not clear- there is a downflow heater in the bathroom of each flat

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I will do my best mate to answer your questions.

This is what i would do.

Seperate test result sheet for each board.
1 PIR inspection sheet for the whole installation.
Spuring off the shower may not contravene the regs, but it would be impractical and probably difficult as the cable from shower to spur would be a bit on the large side to connect into a fused spur especially if it is 10mm, so in my opinion its a no no.

If you are trying to get in with this landlord then dont go overboard, put a few minor non conformances right FOC, but place your emphasis on safety rather than trying to stuff the regs down his throat. I wouldnt let anything pass if it wasnt right, but we all should know where to draw the line.

The landlords i work for are very good and understand where they stand with regard to the law. If i tell them that you cant do this that or the other, then they accept it. They also know that i give them good advice and keep them on the right track with duty of care and their responsibility to their tenants.

I suggest you sit down with your client and explain clearly to him/her what you do, how you can help, and the benefits of maintaining a safe set up, explaining to them what their responsibilities are to tenants.
This is especially important if the house is a house of multiple occupancy (HMO) as different rules apply, and updates to regulations of any type can be enforced.

This is what i did, and now they respect what i tell them, i have keys to all the properties, i keep all the records, and they never quibble about a bill even when the tenants call me out direct. I do a few courtesy visits free to test Fire alarms and emergency lights etc when i am passing, and sometimes i do the odd job FOC as well if i am close by. This particular customer spends a considerable 5 figure sum with me now.

Good luck.........Howard

 

[ghost]

I would be very suspicious of these additions that have been made. It is very likely the cable for the heaters is not rated to the shower circuits. I certainly would not pass this and I would ask to see the certificates for the modifications carried out.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

The crunch issue is whether the cable used to spur off the shower is of a rating exceeding the protective device for that circuit...unlikely. Whether the supply cable and protective device is able to take the additional load....unlikely.....and whether the spur has been properly terminated given the large conductors....also unlikely.

 

[monkeyhanger]

Cheers for advice lads

 

[Guest123]

IMO there's no way that the spurred cable supplying the heater is of the same size as the shower circuit cable.

More than likely a 10mm shower circuit cable and a bit of 2.5mm spurred off to the heater.

So the situation may be that you have a 2.5mm cable protected by a 40A fuse/MCB.

Can you give some more info???

 

[monkeyhanger]

No more info yet, doing PIRs on first 3 flats (of 6) on friday. Just managed to poke my head in one of the flats the other day when I was there replacing em. lights on the stairs- as a matter of urgency, as one had developed a fault and was blowing fuse (all looked nackerd with flickering LEDs and some covers broken etc).

Theres another thing- as I've seen before in similar setups, the fire alarm panel has a relay in that cuts power to lights when in alarm (so ems light up). Thing is, all the lights are maintained, whats the point? What would be the point anyway!? I think I'll disconnect this when I'm doing PIR on communals.
Another thing! The cabling to emergency lighting on top floor is just tie wrapped to some aerial coax that appears to be just stuck to the wall via paint in most places. I have a feeling I might find all sorts on this job!

When I've gone into these installs in more depth after testing on friday I'll see if you agree with my codes :-D

 

[Johno]

if you bend the rules for the landlord now, he will expect it every time( i am speaking from experience), i would tell him that it needs sorting, and there isn't much point in doing a PIR as you know it is already unsat (unless you don't want the remedial work, and then just do the PIR) all he wants is a report with a satisfactory tick on it, to pass liability on to you

 

[monkeyhanger]

Got in first 2 flats today.
Shower circuits: 9.5kw showers on 30A BS3036's.
Heaters from main side of shower switch in 1.5 3C flex.
Explained to landlord that the heaters couldn't be left (one of the tenants had actually been told not to use the heater and shower at the same time).

To save the situation: in the first flat I have trunked down the corner of the bathroom and ran a flex from the heater, through the wall above skirting & then plug-topped it into an adjacent socket 'back to back' with the bathroom. Do you think this is acceptable?

In the second flat, I have disconnected the flex from the shower switch but leaving it at that until I revisit with a new fluro etc. next thursday.

Do you think it's acceptable for me to put these heaters on plug tops in the room behind the bathroom? I can't see anything wrong with it. Just seen in one of the downstairs flats, the heaters in them are fed off the immersion heater switch (and they have immersion heaters in use too)!
Apparantly cost the landlord a fortune to get the heaters fitted, after getting paid the 'electrician' apparantly disappeared from the face of the earth, no certificates etc. even mentioned.

 

[Guest123]

Got in first 2 flats today.
Shower circuits: 9.5kw showers on 30A BS3036's.
QUOTE]


Any RCD's present at all???

 

[monkeyhanger]

30ma on the tails to the board, each board in the block has a 30 ma rcd in the tals.......

30ma on the tails to the board, each board in the block has a 30 ma rcd in the tals.......
Why?

 

[Guest123]

It's just you mentioned a 3036 but not an RCD, would have been a point for your PIR is all with it being a circuit in a bathroom.

 

[monkeyhanger]

Yeah, because of the RCD being on the tails should I put a code 4 for lack of discrimination? Also code 4 for RCD being used as main switch?
Do you think its acceptable for me to disconnect these heaters from the fixed wiring and put on plugtop in room behind on landlords request?

Cheers mate

Sorry if I sound like I need walking through this, I'm a bit rusty on PIRs and want to make sure I'm giving the landlord the right info!

 

[Sintra]

What zone are the heaters installed in and are the suitably ip rated for the location?

 

[monkeyhanger]

In these first two flats the heaters have been outside the zones