skill been taken out the trade?

[liamnewbury]

Does anyone else feel that alot of skill has been taken out of our trade, things are becoming easier and easier to do. The days of using metal conduit and single in houses is long gone. If the standards were alot higher would we be worth more money and would there be less rogue traders about?

opinions please

 

[Amp David]

Think its the same in almost every trade out there.

 

[gaffer]

yes I sort of agree,when I started my apprenticeship in the mid eighties we did alot of banks and office blocks,steel conduit,steel trunking and fire alarms in MICC.Every light fitting had a ceiling rose above it,none of this daisy chain lighting,no busbar track,only raised floor in computer rooms(and they were tiny).
But on the other hand things change,jobs have to be finished quick,tighter deadlines etc.Manufacturers have developed and improved products ,so some skills get lost(when was the last time you did MICC) but new skills get learned.I enjoy learning new skills it keeps me interested in the job that I love.

 

[Des 56]

It used to be that an electrician would and could undertake a full range of tasks,but nowadays it seems that a section of the trade has been sliced off (Domestic installation)and many people specialise in that discipline

There is no problem with that other than, rouges and chancers have therefore been handed a nice opportunity, to sneak past the traditional routes and/ or be accepted by the very low Government competence standards, which has harmed the trade terminally,

Also by the rediculous defined scope level
Can you imagine electricians being granted a licence to plumb in only the cold pipes or fit only the cupboard doors,we would soon be doing it all would we not,and that is what is happening to degrade the trade

Some of the rouges are able now to be legalised rouges unfortunately

 

[gaffer]

Luckily in the channel islands we dont have any of those "train to be an electrician in five minutes" training courses,and the only way is the five year apprenticeship way(so far).
I didnt do any domestic work until I was way out of my apprenticeship,but luckily for me I worked alongside experienced sparkies who had.Its one thing knowing the theory (which you cant learn in five minutes)but experience is priceless IMHO.
There will always be rouges in every trade,unfortunately.

 

[offshorealex]

Think there is a difference between rogues, and a loss of requirement to have skills. If there are easier, quicker ways to do a job safely then I'm all for it. The rogues dont have less skills, they just have less knowledge and scruples. I'm happy to run a chaser up the wall rather than show off my raggling skills!!!!

 

[stef]

I work in a factory as a maintenance technician. We still use a lot of steel conduit and trunking.
Too expensive and too time consuming for a domestic installation I would say. For an industrial
installation it is made to last and protect.

 

[vango1980]

I agree, give the rouges a TPN board to do and see how they get on

 

[CARL1964]

So, Let me see if I understand this discussion.
You are saying that because I have signed up to a course provider, which is not a local colledge, doing evening classes, nor do they provide an 'apprenticeship' (I'm 45 years old, so that would be out of the question) that upon completion of my course, which is all C&G certified, that I will be a 'ROUGE TRADER' incapable of installing anyting correctly or safely?
I trained as an electrician in the Royal Navy (Although we were called Weapons Engineer Mechanics then) and after serving my time, I came into the public sector but decided thst I wanted to do other things, Apparhently I was not qualified to be a 'real electrican' anyway,
I now have the opportunity to get back into the trade, and the only way i can achieve this is through one of the (so called Con-artist) training courses, I have a family to support and mortgage to pay the same as you guys so full time education is not an option. When I finish the course I will be qualified to a good standard and I know that experience is everything but with people like you around the experience can never be gained or if we set up on our own we are the lowest of the low con-artists and Rougue Traders. I know that these people are out there ripping the public off , but please don't tar everybody with the same brush, give some of us a bit of credit for the fact that we are capable and want to do a safe and efficient job in whichever sector of the industry we decide to work in.

Sorry if this offends anyone but to be frank, I'm offended by the attitude of some members of this forum.

 

[Jason Smith]

Here Here !

 

[calv68]

ive been a spark about 5 years now, i came from the automotive industry and done one of the rogue trader courses like some of you call them, and to some people they are, i knew i wasnt going to be practiclly qualified so i went to work for an electrical contracter for six weeks for free, anyway he kept me on and give me a full time job, six months later he had to pay people off,he let go 3 lads
who had beyween 10 -20 years experiance each, or time served as you say, but he kept me, so its swings and roundabouts.

 

[gaffer]

Theres always been rouges in the electrical trade long before the short courses.I apologise if anyone has been offended by any of my posts,no harm intended.

 

[garyinderby]

Hi Carl
I have also just finished my course, and have found the training to be first rate. i do not pretend to know as much as you time served guys. But after 30 years in the construction industry, starting out as a bricklayer and attaining a city and guilds advanced craft. then going to university, gaining a HND in Building Studies and a BSc in construction management. in the last ten years ive been in project management Supervising so called time served sparkies and snagging there work. i have a better understanding than alot of time served electricians. i do hope the people who are involved in the trade i have worked hard to join are not as bigoted as it appears on the thread.

 

[offshorealex]

This is exactly the point I was making. A lack of the old skills does not mean that someone is a rogue trader. Nor do I suspect that the majority of members of this forum feel this way. I have read a lot of posts in a short time on here, and most guys are extremely helpful, and indeed supportive of people with less knowledge than them.

 

[CARL1964]

This is exactly the point I was making. A lack of the old skills does not mean that someone is a rogue trader. Nor do I suspect that the majority of members of this forum feel this way. I have read a lot of posts in a short time on here, and most guys are extremely helpful, and indeed supportive of people with less knowledge than them.

I agree, sorry I was not having a go at anyone in particular, and I find this forum and the people on it to be really helpful and friendly for the vast majority of the time, I have gained a lot of really usefull information from here, it's a great site! I may not be the most prolific poster, and will I hope be able to offer more to the site as confidence, knowledge and ability increase, but I do visit the site almost daily, and enjoy reading ALL the threads.

However times change and technology improves, it's not just the electrical industry, it's every industry which is in this situation.

Carl

 

[johnc]

yes I sort of agree,when I started my apprenticeship in the mid eighties we did alot of banks and office blocks,steel conduit,steel trunking and fire alarms in MICC.Every light fitting had a ceiling rose above it,none of this daisy chain lighting,no busbar track,only raised floor in computer rooms(and they were tiny).
But on the other hand things change,jobs have to be finished quick,tighter deadlines etc.Manufacturers have developed and improved products ,so some skills get lost(when was the last time you did MICC) but new skills get learned.I enjoy learning new skills it keeps me interested in the job that I love.

Read your reply and noticed you have MICC experience.
Is there a good way to join the old copper sheath MICC?
Just drilled through some and if possible would like to make good.
Many thanks
Johnc

 

[teflonmick]

its happening in all trades instead of employers paying a plumber,joiner,gas engineer, and electrician, they just want to pay one person to do the lot.

 

[Des 56]

Part of what I posted
rouges and chancers have therefore been handed a nice opportunity, to sneak past the traditional routes and/ or be accepted by the very low Government competence standards, which has harmed the trade terminally,

I think some are rightly offemded by my and others comments, because as in my case,the term rouge wasn't meant to refer to Trained electricians, whether they are apprentice trained or more modern intensive trained and gaining the practical skills on the job

My own reference was to the extra low entrance criteria that the schemes have accepted and who have now been slated by the government for doing so
I had in mind the ultimate in danger in our trade,the guy around the corner who potched a bit
That same guy can now do a multi guess regulations exam, have no training in the actual trade and become accepted and registered
Once the relevant certificate is gained,practically, it means automatic entrance to the schemes

I have heard of nobody whatsoever who has been rejected.others may have,but they would be few and far between

I will apologise to those of you who have trained in another industry or the forces and have done their best to retrain for another sector of electrics,those comments were not for one moment intended to include fellow electricians from other industries

 

[baldsparkies]

Bottom line.
Its all about competence, and competence is NOT knowing what you can do.
It's about knowing what you can't do.

A rogue is more about a persons character,nothing to do with qualifications or experience.
Like any trade or life in general you can only get out what your prepared to put in.
There is no substitute for training and experience both practical and theoretical knowledge run side by side in our trade.
As long as people work within the limitations of quick fix courses I have no problem with them whatsoever, after all we all need to make a living.

But, and its a big but, know your limitations and know them well, otherwise you run the risk of endangering life and property and that's not acceptable at any cost and applies to us all.

 

[Jason Smith]

Sorry mate,gonna have to have a pop at you, please dont take it personally. The multi tick boxes as answers for the exam are impossible to pass unless you know the answer. Every course I have been on requires at least a 90% pass rate, over up to 40 questions. The other three wrong answers you could tick are so close to the real answer in their content that you ahve to know the answer to succeed. An average course involve probably 8-ten exams, and of course the final biggie, a national on line Gola. Your allowed to take it if you have passed all the other internal exams. Thats why you probably say everyone passes, well all I can say is that thats everyone that is allowed to take the exam. Many people have to go back for lots of resits on the internal exams, and can re sit the final as well. On my course there were eight of us, two passed, but the remaining 6 havetaken over ayear to get to apoint where they can pass. some stil havent. It is not as easy as you think. I will say however, that if you ever get your hands on a copy of the final exam, do not be dismayed at how easy itis and the fact itsopen book. The books in the final are no use to you at all. The internal exams are not open book, and are very difficult in comparison to the final.
I was once involved in training (another field) and these exams are to explore your knowledge. Try to pass one with no knowledge of the subject, and it is actually not possible. (except the jtml health and safety exam !!)

 

[silva.foxx]

I don't think the skill has been taken out of the trade but the need for certain skills seems to be on the decline.

I've been a factory spark for over 15 years and I can't remember the last time I did conduit or trunking work. This basket stuff seems to have taken over with SWA. My work has gone from hardwiring masses of relays and contactors to programming PLCs.

Technology and it's advancements is playing a large part of the demise of the Master of Electrickery, so too has the evolution of t'interweb. Any info is available at your click of a mouse button that was at one time only available from the crusty old codger training you through the long apprenticeship.

I'm no longer a factory spark... I'm told I'm now an electrical technician. I'm still doing the job I trained for plus more. Although I'm not installing large supplies, I'm still faultfinding circuits and troubleshooting applications but entering the digital era by getting involved in programming microelectronics, parameterising drives, computer networking, more IT stuff really. Plus getting involved in the fitter's trade, oh...and welder's trade...yeah, secretary's trade too with all word processing, spreadsheets, printing off reels of paper, photocopying, calls, etc...

As for rogues entering the trade...hasn't it always been this way. It's easier now as so much info is available. These fast-track courses used to peev me as I had to do 4 years solid. My apprenticeship involved me learning at college 1 day per week then using what I'd learnt to gain experience in the hands-on at work. These fast track courses are giving the lessons I had but not the experience I got from doing it in work.

.

 

[brucelee]

hi everyone
good post i too have paid a large amount of money for a intensive training course, and recieved more training and understanding on the short course than i did when i was a apprentice electrician in 1986. where we did 6 week college 4 week work i never finished my apprenticeship as i gave it up as i felt i wasnt learning and being treated like a slave/dogs body etc. i have always regretted and over the years been involved in wiring new build for wainhomes for a electrical installation company we four of us had two sites when i started in 1989 and when i left in 93 because of last recession we had 22 sites being done by 5 of us then it all went into recession i have never had any complaints about any of my work in the last 24 yrs of being involved on and off with electrics including maintainance on commercial, rewires etc. but when my partner was left disabled in 2005 i had to be her carer but still wanted to return to electrics so last july went on one of these courses for £4020 and learned more in a short time than i ever did at college and actually doing the work far outweighs any theory as experience is king i have paid a lot of money to get qualified and over years have had to sort out many so called qualified electricians work as it was dog rough so it goes both ways. It is all about pride in your work and if your willing to learn and be be big enough to ask if not sure instead of bodging it. I am now qualified to c&g 2382,2377,2393 and logic full scope and got 100% in some of these a mgger mft 1552 the regs and onsite guide , also i am about to do 2391altogether when set up £9000 .just because it was quicker doesnt mean it was not as good they teach you everything you need to know and how to do it competently so in answer to all above it depends on the person a bodge it and scarper merchant or someone who takes pride in all they do and i i have not spent all this time and money to do bodge it jobs or anything illegal this is why i did the course

 

[dickie]

Here Here Well said !!!!

 

[Jason Smith]

Right lads and ladies, lets gang up on the buggers. We shall form the Competent Reliable, and Part P club, to defend ourselfs against the persons who think we are any less capable than them of designing and installing a domestic re wire. We shall offer up our workmanship against theirs, even though we did an intensive course. We shall however, bow down to their superior knowledge, for that is the truth. We shall always refer to them for advice, for they are the fathers of our industry, we need them. We shall unite against cowboys as they exist weather superqualified or intensivly trained.
Oh, hang on, any suggestions for the name of our of our new alliance? just realised it spells CRAP. -Seriously, lets have a laugh, we need to, its a bloody responsible job, I feel the thread through this message reflects the truth.

 

[gaffer]

Read your reply and noticed you have MICC experience.
Is there a good way to join the old copper sheath MICC?
Just drilled through some and if possible would like to make good.
Many thanks
Johnc

Hi John I assume you drilled through it with a masonry bit.And that the cable was concealed in a wall.
Without seeing the job its had to say,but you will carefully have to expose the cable enough to do some sort of repair.You could pot and gland into a galv thru box with straight thru crimps and have the box lid flush with the wall.Hope this helps,maybe you could post a photo?

 

[Cueball]

Gaffer,

Apologies if this seems like nit-picking but I've always thought crimping MICC is a bit of a no-no. Best bet I would have thought is connector block. I've worked with a mob that had this as a one of the questions in their trrade test and it has caught a lot of lads out. I think crimping any solid cores is a non-starter although I'm willing to be corrected.

Cheers,

Cueball

 

[sparks72]

I left the commercial sector a few years ago because of the crap that was being drafted in
at a cheaper rate, we were up in arms 13 years ago because some idiot in the industry suggested
that we had a more mates on site to do the tray,trunking & conduit, that would have basically put a majority
of Electricians out of work.

 

[lee sandland]

so, let me see if i understand this discussion.
You are saying that because i have signed up to a course provider, which is not a local colledge, doing evening classes, nor do they provide an 'apprenticeship' (i'm 45 years old, so that would be out of the question) that upon completion of my course, which is all c&g certified, that i will be a 'rouge trader' incapable of installing anyting correctly or safely?
I trained as an electrician in the royal navy (although we were called weapons engineer mechanics then) and after serving my time, i came into the public sector but decided thst i wanted to do other things, apparhently i was not qualified to be a 'real electrican' anyway,
i now have the opportunity to get back into the trade, and the only way i can achieve this is through one of the (so called con-artist) training courses, i have a family to support and mortgage to pay the same as you guys so full time education is not an option. When i finish the course i will be qualified to a good standard and i know that experience is everything but with people like you around the experience can never be gained or if we set up on our own we are the lowest of the low con-artists and rougue traders. I know that these people are out there ripping the public off , but please don't tar everybody with the same brush, give some of us a bit of credit for the fact that we are capable and want to do a safe and efficient job in whichever sector of the industry we decide to work in.

Sorry if this offends anyone but to be frank, i'm offended by the attitude of some members of this forum.

nice one

 

[ghost]

Gaffer,

Apologies if this seems like nit-picking but I've always thought crimping MICC is a bit of a no-no. Best bet I would have thought is connector block. I've worked with a mob that had this as a one of the questions in their trrade test and it has caught a lot of lads out. I think crimping any solid cores is a non-starter although I'm willing to be corrected.

Cheers,

Cueball

I think you are refering to when the circuit is a fire retardant circuit. I have done many fire alarm pyro jobs over the years and the prefered joint is a ceramic connector block, as opposed to a pvc block.
I personally cannot see any problem with using crimps on solid cores, if they are fitted using the correct tool, ie a ratchet crimper. The ratchet crimper applies a force to the joint that cold welds the crimp to the cable core, as long as the correct size crimp for the cable being jointed is used. Remember, joints should never be made in trunking, only designated joint boxes.

 

[bugsy]

No the skill has not been taken out the trade - It's just not regulated .DIY programmes don't help -
Ask the average house basher ( excluding proper sparkies I hasten to add ) about volt drop . earth loops and correction factors and he won't have a clue

 

[baldsparkies]

No the skill has not been taken out the trade - It's just not regulated .DIY programmes don't help -
Ask the average house basher ( excluding proper sparkies I hasten to add ) about volt drop . earth loops and correction factors and he won't have a clue

Here,here, Bugsy.
Its all about what kind of electrical work you have covered in your working life as a sparks. I have been fortunate enough to have run large electrical contracts working to specifications and drawings along with meetings with electrical consultants, Quants surveyors, architects and the like although you are into an entirely different ball game. Composit panels as opposed to a simple consumer units. Lighting control equipment, power factor correction, submains supplies and 3 phase control panels for mechanical heating and vent, Fire alarm systems that need to interact with other services, the list is endless. But its all about how far you need to go in your trade. A good domestic electrician who has never worked on anything else is still a good electrician, so we are back to competance and my comments in an earlier post. Thats the plus about our trade, variety and a learning curve that is with you throughout. I am 56 started my apprentiship at 18 and still learning. If you want a thorn in the side of the trade, then look no further than part P. Its created an absolute shambles in the domestic world and thats not just my opinion .

 

[gaffer]

Gaffer,

Apologies if this seems like nit-picking but I've always thought crimping MICC is a bit of a no-no. Best bet I would have thought is connector block. I've worked with a mob that had this as a one of the questions in their trrade test and it has caught a lot of lads out. I think crimping any solid cores is a non-starter although I'm willing to be corrected.

Cheers,

Cueball

Sorry if you feel like you are nit picking,I always welcome any input from others.I think the down side is maybe the risk of damage from heat to insulated crimps.Dont know of any problems crimping on solid cores?

 

[lee sandland]

hi ,ive just started a so called quick course and having reading a lot of post on this site there is alot of negatived about people trying to change there lives and better themselfs with a new career.
I was in the exhibition & shopfitting trade for 12 years and employed 20 labourers working all over uk and europe ,but when thay close the coal mines the miners came in cheaper(don't blame them thay needed work) and it was just me and my van.So i had to change my career and trained as a chef at the age of 30 and had the same type of comments then ,now at 42 trying to move on and you get the same negatived ,Sorry but times have changed and people don't do the same job for 40 years or more.
To me has long there are regs to control cowboys your jobs well be safe.
thanks lee

 

[baldsparkies]

To me has long there are regs to control cowboys your jobs well be safe.
thanks lee

Its a nice thought Lee, but regs to control cowboys There's no such thing.
Since when as a cowboy taken any notice of regulations??.

 

[Jason Smith]

The average house basher- i come from an intensive course and I was trained in volt drop and correction factors, I am going to assume you are really not sufficiently informed to make comment.
Please confine your comments to persons not properly qualified. You cannot blanket every person and every course.

 

[lee sandland]

Its a nice thought Lee, but regs to control cowboys There's no such thing.
Since when as a cowboy taken any notice of regulations??.

Thanks ,but my point was that poeple doing these quick courses was not good enough to be a eletrician or join your trade when all i (or we) do is study and work and pay alot of money for it ,it's not just for the money it's for our future and a new skill .
and there are always chancers in any trade ,but the new laws coming in in 2015 should stop the cowboys
many thanks lee

 

[gazzamikes]

I think that the colleges etc should teach more of the support systems such as tray and steel conduit. I'm a maintenance engeer, without the skills I've gained over five years of engineering training trying to do metallic support systems would have been very difficult. I completed the2330 last summer and in our group was a posty, never used a hacksaw or benders in his life, he struggled in his practical exam for 6 hours and gave up. More training needs to be given

 

[lee sandland]

I think that the colleges etc should teach more of the support systems such as tray and steel conduit. I'm a maintenance engeer, without the skills I've gained over five years of engineering training trying to do metallic support systems would have been very difficult. I completed the2330 last summer and in our group was a posty, never used a hacksaw or benders in his life, he struggled in his practical exam for 6 hours and gave up. More training needs to be given

It's like all trades if you want do something you put in the effort and try to learn moor .it took me 5 years at collage to learn my ex trade and 7 years still learning it

 

[MarcT]

Not so long ago, electricians were regarded as electrical craftsmen, and the path was more linear. If it was electrical in nature then you could turn your hand to it and add another string to your bow. Since then ,the trade has become more diverse and lateral in it's progression. You may no longer be judged by your ability to do something , and be judged only on what you have done before, especially in what has become a buyers market.
When these intensive courses came out, I was very dubious, not because I thought my achievements would be usurped, but because I thought the course providers were out for a quick buck. The training now costs a fraction, and has to be completed in a fraction of the time. However, if this is the only way into the trade now, and it's producing competent people then good for them. To be able to retain so much information and pass the exams in such a short time is really quite something, and to those who pass, it shows a dedication. I'm not aware of all the reasons for disliking these courses, but one might be grieving for the passing of a traditional rite of passage, which looks irrevocably destined to history. If there is one single thing that is cheapening our craft, it's not the new induction structure, it's GREED! Builders who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Who do their own electrics because they think you're ripping them off. Who employ cheap lawless foreign labour only to charge top whack for it anyway. Contractors who have one decent QS on the books who shows the inspector round their 'best' jobs while the rest of the mob fling some atrocity in down the round, but don't worry, they can always send an 'improver' round afterwards. WTF is an 'improver‘.? Why didn't you do the damn job properly the first ******* time?

Anyway, I've slid off topic a bit here, and starting to feel like Jessica Fletcher!
back on topic, It doesn't matter where you passed your exams now, it's the knowledge and experience you gain, retain and share with others that makes you. It's all one big learning arc anyway.

 

[lee sandland]

Not so long ago, electricians were regarded as electrical craftsmen, and the path was more linear. If it was electrical in nature then you could turn your hand to it and add another string to your bow. Since then ,the trade has become more diverse and lateral in it's progression. You may no longer be judged by your ability to do something , and be judged only on what you have done before, especially in what has become a buyers market.
When these intensive courses came out, I was very dubious, not because I thought my achievements would be usurped, but because I thought the course providers were out for a quick buck. The training now costs a fraction, and has to be completed in a fraction of the time. However, if this is the only way into the trade now, and it's producing competent people then good for them. To be able to retain so much information and pass the exams in such a short time is really quite something, and to those who pass, it shows a dedication. I'm not aware of all the reasons for disliking these courses, but one might be grieving for the passing of a traditional rite of passage, which looks irrevocably destined to history. If there is one single thing that is cheapening our craft, it's not the new induction structure, it's GREED! Builders who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Who do their own electrics because they think you're ripping them off. Who employ cheap lawless foreign labour only to charge top whack for it anyway. Contractors who have one decent QS on the books who shows the inspector round their 'best' jobs while the rest of the mob fling some atrocity in down the round, but don't worry, they can always send an 'improver' round afterwards. WTF is an 'improver‘.? Why didn't you do the damn job properly the first ******* time?

Anyway, I've slid off topic a bit here, and starting to feel like Jessica Fletcher!
back on topic, It doesn't matter where you passed your exams now, it's the knowledge and experience you gain, retain and share with others that makes you. It's all one big learning arc anyway.

well i agree with everything you say( miss fletcher lol)life is full of learning and in all trades there are con artists and foreign labour is bring this country to it's knees

 

[Jason Smith]

oi, lee, you should have your head in the books !!- Hows the studying coming on ?

 

[baldsparkies]

Around four years ago, I was working for a company that required our services rectifying cable install faults along with panel re wiring on new installations around the country. The original electricians had come from europe and had difficulty understanding the wiring specs which were in english. This was for a well known retail chain. Circuits were incorrectly marked, and the panel lighting control for third and full lighting was all messed up. It was to much trouble to call back the original installers, and worked out cheaper and less complicated to get us to sort it out. I am not pointing fingers just stating a factual situation that I witnessed and was involved in. It does make you form opinions though, so much for going for the cheapest tender.

 

[lee sandland]

oi, lee, you should have your head in the books !!- Hows the studying coming on ?

been at it all day so its time for a beer and plus you can learn alot on here just reading the post ,had some good advice from chris(acat)
thanks lee all the way from skegvagas

 

[norwood61]

I don't think that it's just the electrical profession which has suffered with a 'dumbing down' of professional skills. This seems to affect practically all areas of our society. I believe this starts at the academic level. We regularly see every year how students these days gaining A's and B's in four, five or six A levels and the chances of failing a degree are virtually nil. I was asked recently to help an undergraduate complete a history essay, which would contribute to her final grade. On reading it I was astounded at the bad English and complete misunderstanding of the topic in question. I had to advise her that with work such as this she would not succeed. She got a 2/1!!! I think the teaching profession has under pressure from central government had to make qualifications so easy, to meet targets, which basically means there are a lot of people walking around out there with qualifications that, twenty years ago they would have not achieved. This translates into trade qualifications as well, and it must be a concern to many experienced electricians who see young people with so called qualifications, yet who do not have the skill set that these imply.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I trained originally as an electro-mechanical engineer with the Army, only just retired on completion of 22. When I started the policy was repair by repair and failing that replace the broken bit. By the time I retired it was simply lump changing dumbing down skilled tradesmen to simple fitters. It is happening everywhere as technology advances making jobs easier from the bolt together system...

 

[jase]

So, Let me see if I understand this discussion.
You are saying that because I have signed up to a course provider, which is not a local colledge, doing evening classes, nor do they provide an 'apprenticeship' (I'm 45 years old, so that would be out of the question) that upon completion of my course, which is all C&G certified, that I will be a 'ROUGE TRADER' incapable of installing anyting correctly or safely?
I trained as an electrician in the Royal Navy (Although we were called Weapons Engineer Mechanics then) and after serving my time, I came into the public sector but decided thst I wanted to do other things, Apparhently I was not qualified to be a 'real electrican' anyway,
I now have the opportunity to get back into the trade, and the only way i can achieve this is through one of the (so called Con-artist) training courses, I have a family to support and mortgage to pay the same as you guys so full time education is not an option. When I finish the course I will be qualified to a good standard and I know that experience is everything but with people like you around the experience can never be gained or if we set up on our own we are the lowest of the low con-artists and Rougue Traders. I know that these people are out there ripping the public off , but please don't tar everybody with the same brush, give some of us a bit of credit for the fact that we are capable and want to do a safe and efficient job in whichever sector of the industry we decide to work in.

Sorry if this offends anyone but to be frank, I'm offended by the attitude of some members of this forum.

I think they were talking about the defined scope part of part p, by which a kitchen fitter or plumber can go on a 4 day course to learn how to wire a socket or fuse spur and then they somehowthink that "being part p" gives them free reign to tackle any electrical work

 

[1shortcircuit]

These threads make me chuckle.

That's all I'm going to say on this matter though because the last time I spoke my opinion it upset a PROPER ELECTRICIAN and ended up in him getting banned

 

[pmac10]

I trained originally as an electro-mechanical engineer with the Army, only just retired on completion of 22. When I started the policy was repair by repair and failing that replace the broken bit. By the time I retired it was simply lump changing dumbing down skilled tradesmen to simple fitters. It is happening everywhere as technology advances making jobs easier from the bolt together system...

had a similar experience in raf, as an aero fitter, repair it/make it /fit it (to aero standard obviously) or replace it in that order, when i left it was pretty much just replace it. this dawned on some clever bloke one day and they devised extra training to be designed for experienced eng techs to make sure they 'still had it', was called skill fade so i reckon in that respect i agree with the people who say this is a common factor in all trades, however in my current role in a factory where im employed in an electrically biased role(but expected to do both) we are constantly needing to upskill to maintain new machinery, very similar to what silva foxx posted earlier