Smart Meter Tripping RCD

[Ines Spires]

Thought I would throw my tenant's problem regards Smart Meters (SM) into the mix, in the hope someone could maybe suggest what is going on?

May 2016 - tenants switch to E.org - no problem.
March 2017 - had Liberty 100 PAYG SM (top-Up via App) installed and immediately the RCD/fusebox starts tripping intermittently - every few hours, every day, after few days - see picture.
April 2017 - I contacted E.org and they stated that SM not cause switches to trip, fault is fusebox. Accept what they say.

Tripping continues and tenants check and monitor if appliances causing problem. None found.
BG electricians check home electrics 4 times and state domestic side and RCD all ok - Dec 2017, Aug 2018, Sept 2018 and Oct 2018.

After much elimination find Cause???!!!
Customer Top Up - when tenant tops up via app and then a few minutes later credit shows up on phone, then RCD immediately trips.
Supplier reading - after informing E.org about above and they do On Demand reading from their end, then RCD immediately trips.

E.org change SM Oct 2018 and tripping now worse.
BG check after SM change and state domestic side and RCD all ok.
E.org state that fault is RCD as have changed SM and thus are insistent they are not at fault.
BG believe it is SM, so I am between a rock and hard place.
Requested E.org replace SM with Dumb Meters as a way of eliminating or confirming SM is cause of tripping, but will only do if I pay.

Now starting case with Energy Ombudsman… And tenants’ life not good as now 3/4 times a day have to reset RCD.
Any ideas/advice?

 

[Octopus]

Get a local independent spark through recommendation to check it out

It’s hard to believe that topping up a meter can trip a rcd

Have you got a picture with the fuseboard cover open so we can see the breakers?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Theoretically, there should be reason that the meter can cause a downstream RCD to trip.

 

[Ines Spires]

Will get one posted with fuseboard cover open when tenant send me a picture

 

[Wilko]

Theoretically, there should be reason that the meter can cause a downstream RCD to trip.

Hi - is this sentence missing a NO ?

 

[Marvo]

Probably not the kind of advice I should be posting on the publicly viewable forum but I'd either relocate the meter a greater distance from the CU or I'd wrap the CU in thick tin foil with a bonding wire attached to it and see if the nuisance tripping stops. Obviously isolate, and do a risk assessment first etc.

Smart meters can have fairly powerful WAN transmitters and even GSM transmitters which could cause issues with RCD's if in very close proximity.

 

[johnduffell]

the only way to cause an imbalance on a downstream RCD is to cause a leak from one of its outgoing live conductors. Even if there is a neutral-earth fault downstream, there would still be no leak as long as there is no potential difference between earth and neutral.
If the smart meter could cause a change the potential on the neutral above earth, it would cause an imbalance in the presence of a N-E fault.
Has someone actually IR tested the neutral bar with main switch off to the MET with the main earth and all bonding and cpcs connected?

 

[Marvo]

Hi - is this sentence missing a NO ?

I thought he'd typed should instead of could....

 

[Octopus]

Hi - is this sentence missing a NO ?

No

 

[Marvo]

the only way to cause an imbalance on a downstream RCD is to cause a leak from one of its outgoing live conductors. .......

Rcd's can be sensitive to EMI, RFI and even upsteam harmonics etc.

 

[Octopus]

the only way to cause an imbalance on a downstream RCD is to cause a leak from one of its outgoing live conductors. Even if there is a neutral-earth fault downstream, there would still be no leak as long as there is no potential difference between earth and neutral.
If the smart meter could cause a change the potential on the neutral above earth, it would cause an imbalance in the presence of a N-E fault.
Has someone actually IR tested the neutral bar with main switch off to the MET with the main earth and all bonding and cpcs connected?

I’ve given you a disagree because lose connections on the supply side can and do trip rcds

 

[Ines Spires]

Will request tenant send me pic with fuseboard cover open. And reason taken so long from initial problem starting immediately when change to SM in March 2017 and going to Energy Ombudsman now is that we also could not believe top up cause RCD trip - but it is true! Also, please see below BG report picture from 11 Oct 2018.

 

[Octopus]

I disagree with faulty meters...

 

[Ines Spires]

Also, RCD trips when E.org do On Demand test from their end

 

[johnduffell]

I’ve given you a disagree because lose connections on the supply side can and do trip rcds

Agree completely, that's why I said "cause an imbalance" because I know there are other ways to trip an RCD.
I just wanted to get the obvious question about whether it was tested properly out of the way!
Given the BG guy has written "power trips out" which is useless without saying what trips (presumably the RCD), I wouldn't be sure they had an eye for precision.

 

[SparkyChick]

Rcd's can be sensitive to EMI, RFI and even upsteam harmonics etc.

I think you've hit the nail on the head

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Hi - is this sentence missing a NO ?

Yes.
This is one of those threads where I type, then wait for the words to appear.

 

[PEG]

This is a situation crying out for more in-depth testing,including data logging,etc.
I hold minimal faith,in BG being capable of delivering this...

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I for one, would like to see which RCD is tripping.

 

[Ines Spires]

I have asked E.org what the mobile phone signal strength is when they installed the 1st and 2nd SM. The house is in a poor signal area. Would the need to boost the signal from the SM cause interference in the CU?
Will get tenant to take pic when next trip.

 

[Octopus]

I for one, would like to see which RCD is tripping.

That’s a 16th configuration unless it’s been changed, so only the sockets covered by the rcd

 

[SparkyChick]

As far as I know, mobile modems vary their signal strength based on the strength of the signal they receive, so if the signal is weak, they'll increase their output accordingly.

 

[Ines Spires]

This is a situation crying out for more in-depth testing,including data logging,etc.
I hold minimal faith,in BG being capable of delivering this...

4 electrical checks - 3 by BG, last one by PH Jones.
What exactly regarding in depth checks are needed, so I can request these be made.
I feel responsible for tenant, as not fair they are living with RCD tripping constantly, and who knows how long Energy Ombudsman get to resolution, 8 weeks, after xmas!

 

[Strima]

As far as I know, mobile modems vary their signal strength based on the strength of the signal they receive, so if the signal is weak, they'll increase their output accordingly.

Yup, the weaker the signal the more power the send out trying to get good comms with the local mast.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Even if there is a neutral-earth fault downstream, there would still be no leak as long as there is no potential difference between earth and neutral.

If there was a neutral earth fault downstream e.g. shorted together then there would indeed be no PD but there would be earth leakage, it will parrallel the neutral return current through the cpc. If RCD protected then that would trip from the L-N inbalance

 

[TJ Anderson]

4 electrical checks - 3 by BG, last one by PH Jones.
What exactly regarding in depth checks are needed, so I can request these be made.
I feel responsible for tenant, as not fair they are living with RCD tripping constantly, and who knows how long Energy Ombudsman get to resolution, 8 weeks, after xmas!

To be fair, I think the BG spark has done what he can. He has taken Zs to prove effective connection to earth. He has taken IR at 250vdc. He likely selected 250vdc so he could test with loads connected to eliminate both wiring and loads for earth faults. Sensible. He has also ramp tested RCD.

I agree with others that it may well be interference from meter comms mobile being so close to RCD. IIRC the RCD in that board will be an MEM with a functional earth wire it may act like an antennae!

 

[Wilko]

Hi - From afar I guess we can never solve this, but there are couple more things for an Electrician to look at in my view. Did the BG Electrician actually personally observe the remote test and the tripping RCD? I would be seeking cooperation from the meter company with some more testing. Something like : Standing at the box with main switch, RCD and all circuits on, have the remote test done and observe the RCD trip. Reset RCD and turn all MCBs off and repeat the remote test and observe any trip. Safely remove the outgoing N from the RCD (still leaving all MCBs off) and repeat the remote test and observe any trip.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I remember a thread on here a few years ago where on a site walkie talkies were the cause of RCBO’s tripping. And I think it was the same thread where @GMES had the same or knew someone who had the same issue with over 300 RCD sockets and walkie talkies.

 

[Strima]

You need to find someone with an electromagnetic radiation tester to see what the meter output is.

 

[telectrix]

Also, RCD trips when E.org do On Demand test from their end

i think that on demand test is what's causing the problem.

 

[Octopus]

Also, RCD trips when E.org do On Demand test from their end

Are you 100% sure about this? Can you prove this?

 

[Octopus]

Probably not the kind of advice I should be posting on the publicly viewable forum but I'd either relocate the meter a greater distance from the CU or I'd wrap the CU in thick tin foil with a bonding wire attached to it and see if the nuisance tripping stops. Obviously isolate, and do a risk assessment first etc.

Smart meters can have fairly powerful WAN transmitters and even GSM transmitters which could cause issues with RCD's if in very close proximity.

1. The CU is in a daft place - and shouldn't really be in the meter cupboard
2. Would changing it to a AMD3 board help
3. Could the SM be disabled for a set period to see if the tripping stops?

Interesting thread..........

 

[freddo]

The communications parts of those meters are in the top grey section of the meter as a plug in module, so it is positioned as close as it possibly can be to the RCD.

Perhaps another reason not to have a smart meter fitted!

 

[Ines Spires]

Hi - From afar I guess we can never solve this, but there are couple more things for an Electrician to look at in my view. Did the BG Electrician actually personally observe the remote test and the tripping RCD? I would be seeking cooperation from the meter company with some more testing. Something like : Standing at the box with main switch, RCD and all circuits on, have the remote test done and observe the RCD trip. Reset RCD and turn all MCBs off and repeat the remote test and observe any trip. Safely remove the outgoing N from the RCD (still leaving all MCBs off) and repeat the remote test and observe any trip.

@Wilko
Yes, BG actually observe top-ups causing trip.
Re: Remote Testing - E.org electrician change SM-tripping worse, but he could not touch CU/domestic side. So as per Wilko above, E.org electrician himself suggested that if I got an Electrician out that day, the two could work together - he work on the SM, while my man work on CU/domestic side. PH Jones electr1.ician comes and E.org electrician not contactable! PH Jones confirm 4th time, domestic side all ok.

@Murdoch
Re: On Demand test - yes, every time E.org did test while I on call with them, RCD trips
1. Yes, CU is in daft place
2. AMD3 board help - no idea as I am ignorant
3. I suggested replace SM with Dumb meters but E.org rejected idea, unless I pay cost. But, will ask Monday if they can remotely switch off SM and make it Dumb Top Up

Pictures below CU open
Only RCD - red middle switch trip
Also, tenant tells me today, that when trip happens - Plug circuit all off, But Light circuit stay on (lights work).

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: Some thoughts:

1. Box in the area beneath the consumer unit and place some security seals so that it is obvious if anyone has attempted access.

2. Demand from the energy supplier confirmation that the anti-tamper features of the Secure Liberty 100 are working correctly and that the meter is not suffering from spurious tamper alerts. Are they receiving tamper alerts? Ask them what happens if a single tamper alert is reported to them; does it simply log the alert or is the supply shut off briefly and then restored. If there is a series of tamper alerts what happens?

3. Real tamper alerts are covered by (1) above.

 

[suffolkspark]

Id get a roll of tinfoil and wrap the ccu/ fuseboard then see what happens

 

[Taylortwocities]

Also, tenant tells me today, that when trip happens - Plug circuit all off, But Light circuit stay on (lights work).

Of course. It’s only the sockets (to the left of the RCD) that are protected by the RCD.
The circuits to the right of the RCD do not have RCD protection. Don’t know why the labelling has been crossed out.

 

[Ines Spires]

Ines Spires: Some thoughts:

1. Box in the area beneath the consumer unit and place some security seals so that it is obvious if anyone has attempted access.

2. Demand from the energy supplier confirmation that the anti-tamper features of the Secure Liberty 100 are working correctly and that the meter is not suffering from spurious tamper alerts. Are they receiving tamper alerts? Ask them what happens if a single tamper alert is reported to them; does it simply log the alert or is the supply shut off briefly and then restored. If there is a series of tamper alerts what happens?

3. Real tamper alerts are covered by (1) above.

1. and 3. A second E.org electrician came after I demanded a Deadlock Letter. He did not change the new SM but did the following "removed the old anti tamper block and installed new 1 and 2 tails" as a free complimentary service. Not sure what that means. Picture below is before he did remove and install.

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: Further thoughts for what you might ask the energy supplier.

1. Is the enclosure containing the consumer unit and meter made of metal? With the door (is it made of metal too?) shut the meter will/may have a difficult time transmitting and receiving signals, especially if the cellular network coverage is relatively poor at the property. Ask the energy supplier what the meter is programmed to do if there are no signals received from the meter or if the meter does not receive any signals for a 'prolonged' period? Ask this because inside the Liberty 100 is a big switch which is normally 'on' but can be turned off either remotely or by the computer inside the meter.

2. Find out what happens if the credit available in the meter runs out. Does the meter cut off or the supplier remotely cut off the electricity supply? What I am wondering is whether the App top ups are not being received by the meter (or intermittently) so the meter runs out of credit and turns off the supply which causes the RCD to trip. But you said the lights stay on - so maybe there is a brief turning off of the the supply until the new credit is loaded or there is a reserve amount of limited credit which kicks in sufficient to keep the electricity on a little while until the meter is topped up so folk are not plunged into darkness. If there is a problem with cellular reception and the meter is inside a metal box then it could be the tenants have paid for a top up but the meter only receives it when the enclosure door is opened to reset the trip.

3. Ask your tenants by how much they top up the meter - large or small amounts. Then consider (2) above.

 

[Wilko]

... If there is a problem with cellular reception and the meter is inside a metal box then it could be the tenants have paid for a top up but the meter only receives it when the enclosure door is opened to reset the trip.

Monday morning brilliance !!!
Not to make fun of the hardships endured by folks because of this fault, but your thought did remind me of those silly slapstick films ...

 

[SparkyChick]

That particular meter (or at least the one Big Clive took apart) has a facility on the modem for an external antenna. Maybe they could provide one that could be sited away from the consumer unit and disconnect the internal one.

Would be a relatively straightforward way to establish whether it's the close proximity of what is essentially a mobile phone to the RCD that's causing the issue.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Only two likely causes.

a) RF from the meter. Simple test for an electrician to do: Replace the RCD with a DP switch and move the existing RCD into a separate enclosure 1m away connected by tails. If the RCD now holds, it was proximity to the SM that was the problem.

b) SM integral isolator causing glitches in supply. As touched on by Murdoch and Johnduffell, arcing and momentary interruptions can trip a downstream RCD. This tends to occur because the sharp risetime of the interruptions cause unbalanced currents to flow to earth via capacitive interference filters in appliances on RCD-protected circuits and/or by disrupting the operation of active RCD circuitry.

If this situation persisted, I would expect to see the lights flicker or something to start overheating. The problem also existed with two SMs, so I don't think this is it.

I like Sparkychick's suggestion to get them to test a remote antenna.

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: Further to my #39 and thought (2).

https://www.securemeters.com/files/8715/3121/7040/liberty100_family.pdf

I have managed to track down the specification for Liberty 100 smart meter. On page 2 of 4 is the functionality for the Pay As You Go(PAYG) mode which I have copied below. I will make an enquiry tomorrow with the manufacturer Secure to understand this functionality better and in particular how (c) and (d) operate in practice when credit runs out.

(c) might explain why the SM cuts the supply off - which trips the rcd for the sockets- but is soon restored to allow low power demands to be supplied - such as the lighting - for a period until the meter is topped up or the emergency credit runs out. If during this period the load limit is exceeded I guess the power will be turned off again - but if some emergency credit remains the power is again restored subject to the load limit until all the emergency credit is spent. The tenants might be topping up with too little money and underestimating the cost of the electricity they are consuming and thus the rate at which the credit draws down - effectively running the smart meter on empty or close to empty much of the time - triggering the emergency credit mode. Or the top up signal is not being reliably received by the meter causing much the same thing to happen.

You or the tenants ought to ask the energy supplier whether the load limiting option has been enabled in the smart meter.

PAYG functionality

a. Credit and PAYG modes (meter maintains account and tariffs)

b. Display of current and historical consumption with cost of consumption data

c. Emergency credit with optional load limiting

d. Friendly credit (avoids disconnection during unsocial hours or weekends)

e. Debt recovery

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: I have done a bit more research and studied the picture of your meter box - I think the your wall recessed meter box is made of metal which would make it an unsuitable place to install the smart meter - a failing of the meter supplier/installer. See what OVO Energy and meter box makers TRICEL (look at Smart Meter paragraph) say here:

Electricity meter in metal cabinet - can I get smart meters? | The OVO Forum - https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meter-booking-and-installations-66/electricity-meter-in-metal-cabinet-can-i-get-smart-meters-1307

Types of electricity meter & moving your meter - Tricel - https://tricel.co.uk/electricity-meter/

 

[Ines Spires]

An update of where I am at the moment with E.org/SM Provider. Sorry for the length.
I thank you all so much for the advice you have been giving me.
From the advice and information supplied so far I asked E.org, who would then ask the SM provider, the following questions yesterday, replied today.

1. Me- If tenant wanted to top up SM without app - how do they do it?
E.org- with card at shop, but it would then immediately credit the SM. The SM is still a Smart Meter.

2. Me- If tenant moved to another energy supplier who can not use the Liberty 100 SM, then the E.org installed SM goes Dumb and tenant has to manually top-up, how would they do it?
E.org- shop would give a digit code which tenant would then key into SM. BUT, SM would not go Dumb - it would still be a Smart Meter and send out signals/frequencies. !!!

3. Me- I said that I totally agree with E.org /SM Provider that SM is NOT faulty.

CAUSE - WHY TRIP
But, the way ALL SMs have to operationally function and where this SM has been located is causing the the RCD to trip.
(i)-transmissions emanating from the SM is causing some form of disturbance/interference, such as electromagnetic interference (EMI), radio frequency interference (RFI) and even upstream harmonics or otherwise, which is causing the RCD to trip.

(ii)-communication parts in the Liberty 100 are at the very top of the unit - the SM has been placed immediately underneath where the RCD is in the CU - it can not get any closer.

(iii)-mobile modems vary their signal strength based on the strength of the signal they receive, so if the signal is weak, they'll boost their output accordingly to get good comms with local mast, so increase the risk of interference.

(iv)- CU and SM are in a metal cabinet - this would cause the SM to have to boost it’s signal, so increase the risk of interference.

(v)- I did not mention this point - RCD in that board will be a MEM with a functional earth wire it may act like an antennae! - I think the unfortunate guy at E.org was getting overwhelmed! Sorry TJ Anderson.

SOLUTION I REQUEST
So, to eliminate that the SM is causing the RCD to trip, I asked can E.org do the following:
(a)- the Liberty 100 can be both a SM and a dumb PAYG top terminal. It has the function to remotely or by the computer inside the meter to switch off the Smart Meter so it becomes a Dumb meter - can E.org do this?
E.org- we do not have the ability to remotely switch off the SM

(b)- the Liberty 100 has facility on the modem for an external antenna. Could E.org provide one that is sited away from the CU and disconnect the internal one?
E.org- we can not do this as we can only replace the whole SM

SOLUTION FROM E.org
The SM Provider again state that the SM can not cause the RCD to trip. BUT, the fault is because CUs only have a life span of 10 years and as this one is old, the RCD has become sensitive and so trips. To solve the problem replace the current CU with a new one.
My Response:
Me- RCD started tripping immediately after the SM was installed, and CU was fine until then - tenant was E.org Dumb Meter customer for year till switch.
E.org- Unfortunate coincidence
Me- RCD trips when tenant does top-up and and E.org do On Demand test
E.org- Unfortunate coincidence AND we do various requests during the day

WHAT CAN I DO?
1. Do test by moving RCD 1m away - Lucien Nunes #42
2. Do test RCD and MCBs - Wilko #27
3. Do test of electromagnetic radiation - Strima #29
4. Wrap CU in silver foil - how? Is it safe? - Marvo #6
5. Replace CU with new one - but would new CU still trip as next to SM?
6. Replace E.org SM with Dumb Meters - which E.org say I can do, but at my cost
7. Move to another energy supplier that would make E,org SM dumb - or would it still stay Smart as E.org say it will?
8. Get tenants to keep good credit in SM as suggested by Marconi - I believe tenants keep high positive credit, but will ask them.
9. Any other suggestions or combination of above??? Aaaargh, candles and wood burning stove???

Have just sent E.org email with links supplied by Marconi about SM in metal box. Lets see what they say.
Have requested all Logs that the SM creates. E.org asked me which ones, I said all logs (felt stupid, but have no idea bar what you all have suggested) - is there any specific ones I should ask for?
And, one other connected question - will the constant tripping cause damage to the CU/RCD or effect its callibration?

 

[Silly Sausage]

WHAT CAN I DO?

I'd be demanding instant replacement with a regular pre-payment meter.

 

[Strima]

There’s no need to wrap the whole DB in foil. Wrap a foil sheet around a sheet of card a couple of times. Then wrap in some plastic sheet to insulate it if you wish.

Slide this in between the SM and DB. Observe the results. This is only a temporary fix to see if you can block the local RF emissions to the RCD.

Age of the DB has nothing to do with this and they’re talking big swinging fleshy ball things...

 

[Marvo]

Maybe a fly lead with an alaigator clip to earth would improve its effectiveness.

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: Re: 9. Any other suggestions or combination of above??? Aaaargh, candles and wood burning stove???

Buy some heavy duty plastic sheeting and gaffer tape. If safe and practical, leave the meter enclosure door open. Make the innards of the enclosure watertight using the plastic sheeting and gaffer tape. Leave it this way for a week.

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[newbie1980]

i have a customer with exactly same fuseboard with exact same issues. I insisted on the old meter going back in

hey presto fault fixed

@Wilko
Yes, BG actually observe top-ups causing trip.
Re: Remote Testing - E.org electrician change SM-tripping worse, but he could not touch CU/domestic side. So as per Wilko above, E.org electrician himself suggested that if I got an Electrician out that day, the two could work together - he work on the SM, while my man work on CU/domestic side. PH Jones electr1.ician comes and E.org electrician not contactable! PH Jones confirm 4th time, domestic side all ok.

@Murdoch
Re: On Demand test - yes, every time E.org did test while I on call with them, RCD trips
1. Yes, CU is in daft place
2. AMD3 board help - no idea as I am ignorant
3. I suggested replace SM with Dumb meters but E.org rejected idea, unless I pay cost. But, will ask Monday if they can remotely switch off SM and make it Dumb Top Up

Pictures below CU open
Only RCD - red middle switch trip
Also, tenant tells me today, that when trip happens - Plug circuit all off, But Light circuit stay on (lights work).
View attachment 45297 View attachment 45298