Some times I really feel sorry for some clients

[Octopus]

Today I got a call from a lady today, asking me if I could come and provide a price to move a socket.

So I duely turned up at the prearranged time.....

1. The had ordered a new cooker from Comet - who had turned up to install it and have refused due to the location of the socket above being "illegal"



2. They've marked the two tiles where a new socket would be OK as the new cooker is a gas unit and only requires a socket (13a plug) supply

3. No RCD protection in the house - so a single RCD socket in the kitchen would be required!

4. No bonding to the gas and water - and the CU is on the opposite side of the detached house - clearly didn't like hearing about the requirement to add this before I can do anything.


This couple are elderly, and judging by the home and their reaction to what I said, don't have much money.

So what would you do.....

1. Play by the rules, insist on the bonding, RCD socket, etc??

or

2. Bend the rules and forget the bonding and RCD's??

Oh happy days!

 

[telectrix]

nice thoughts, but you simply can't do work on an installation where the bonding is non-existant. you either do it for cost, or walk away, knowing that some muppet will come along and leave them with a potentially dangerous situation.

 

[drew35]

Its a difficult one, the problem is if an electrician refuses to do it then a half wit does it instead, what is more dangerous?

As it only involves moving a socket that is already there its not adding anything, do it, test it, get them to sign a note on a minor works to say they refused additional work after it was explained to them. If they were asking you to add new circuits or extra sockets then that would be different.

 

[telectrix]

agree in part. still would like to do the bonding, though.

 

[Strima]

I would agree with Drew, you can only expect them to pay for what they want. Any paperwork issued would have to state that bonding is incomplete etc and client refused to upgrade and acknowledges the safety implications.

A rock and a hard place I know but what can you do? Give them a reasonable quote for the bonding work and ask them to get a few other quotes, the ball is in their court. No jury would convict if you pointed out any potentially dangerous installation and the owners refused to act on it.

 

[telectrix]

No jury would convict if you pointed out any potentially dangerous installation and the owners refused to act on it.

but if an old dear died, the relatives ( beneficiaries, leeches) would say that they begged you to make it safe and you refused/ said it wasn't necessary, whatever. another few grand in the probate pays for funerals.

 

[Guitarist]

that post is worthy of a facepalm of epic proportions.
i hope that you can still afford such high principles on a state pension.

biff, insult me all you like, but after 26 years as an electrician (7 self-employed) I know exactly who I am and what I am comfortable doing. My personality just doesn't allow me to ignore regs and bend the rules. It's who I am, and if that means I end up poor and destitute in my old age, then so be it.

 

[Strima]

No jury would convict if you pointed out any potentially dangerous installation and the owners refused to act on it.

but if an old dear died, the relatives ( beneficiaries, leeches) would say that they begged you to make it safe and you refused/ said it wasn't necessary, whatever. another few grand in the probate pays for funerals.

Then it's a case of proving it, if you had paperwork stating that they refused to upgrade then your arse is covered. One big thing in law is evidence, they would really need to have some!!!

 

[WilcoxElec]

as others have mentioned , blank off existing skt , then drop down in mini-trunking to new skt behind cooker - 20 mins max.

I think this sounds what I would expect.

 

[imago]

Every case is different, but there are only two ways I approach something like this:
1) Do it to the regs and if I have to spring for the bonding to get it done that way then I do.
2)If it's too much work or money for me to provide the required FOC then I politely decline the work and explain why.

It doesn't happen very often, but in both cases it will shave a few quid off my year. However, in both cases I can sleep soundly with my principles (and professional reputation) in tact.

 

[trev]

that post is worthy of a facepalm of epic proportions.
i hope that you can still afford such high principles on a state pension.

What's your opinions on post 17 Biff?

 

[moospark]

Socket is surface mounted in conduit, move it a foot and a half to the left? Also, they had the dosh for the cooker? This may be out of order, but I know Surrey pretty well, (now happily back in Geordieland), and it's pretty affluent, suprised no ones mentioned it, but are they preying on your goodwill? Love seniors as much as anyone, my parents are, and one day I will be. Doesn't stop them being devious.

 

[telectrix]

a few years ago, i had a job on for an elderly couple. replace old rewireable DB. was to 16th, split load board. sockets , shower, cooker on RCD and lights non-RCD. they were pleading poverty, so i did the job for £195, including fitting bonding to gas and water. replaced 3 dodgy sockets and 2 light switches. all tested and certed. the old bugger then asked if there was a discount for cash, so i said, OK , £20 off. £175. he then went into the bedroom and came out with a roll, must have been 3 grand, and counted off £180, then held out his hand for the fiver change.

 

[moospark]

Aye, the reason they've got money is they don't part with it.

 

[StuSpiers]

Put a plug top on the cooker.

Job done?

You are not there to do a EICR you are there to put a plug top on.

Advise about crap location of socket and explain why its dangerous.

 

[Guitarist]

Bottom line..... Never believe a word anyone says where money is concerned. Maybe they are poor and maybe they aren't. One thing is certain tho.... you will never know.

 

[Guitarist]

Put a plug top on the cooker.

Job done?

You are not there to do a EICR you are there to put a plug top on.

Advise about crap location of socket and explain why its dangerous.

Read post #1 mate

 

[Strima]

View attachment 14193

I hope that's not the new cooker, it needs a good clean...

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Makes you wonder why the ignition system needs a mains connection, it ain't that hard to generate a spark from a battery source! Lazy manufactuers.

All about safety, the oven will be auto ignite, if the oven is on and opening and closing of the door had caused the flame to go out, it would auto ignite, a flat battery would not do that, if the power had gone down the safety gas shut off valve will operate as it can not re-ignite.

However, what would we all have done if this situation was in our own home?
Me, I'd just fit the plug, plug it in and get on with it, oh hang on, thats how my setup has been for the last 10 years except my socket outlet was just above the top of the opened glass cover. Never had a problem.
Its only that I have fitted an extractor, it has all moved.
Oh no, I did not notify it, I must be a bad man that should be shot down, reported or imprisoned.

 

[moospark]

Yes Mark. Hung, drawn and quartered. 50 mile North from me it doesn't apply.

 

[telectrix]

All about safety, the oven will be auto ignite, if the oven is on and opening and closing of the door had caused the flame to go out, it would auto ignite, a flat battery would not do that, if the power had gone down the safety gas shut off valve will operate as it can not re-ignite.

However, what would we all have done if this situation was in our own home?
Me, I'd just fit the plug, plug it in and get on with it, oh hang on, thats how my setup has been for the last 10 years except my socket outlet was just above the top of the opened glass cover. Never had a problem.
Its only that I have fitted an extractor, it has all moved.
Oh no, I did not notify it, I must be a bad man that should be shot down, reported or imprisoned.

be careful..... guitar strings make good garottes. LOL.

 

[Guitarist]

be careful..... guitar strings make good garottes. LOL.

and the BGB makes a very good "blunt instrument".... :devilish:

 

[Swicade]

Definitely a hot potato this scenario for sure:

1) Insist bonding is done at extra cost (as supply is otherside of the house it wont be cheap so hard to FoC) if they dont you walk away knowing some nugget is going to walk in and do it anyway (socket move could end up rouched in)

2) relocate socket but make customer aware Bonding needs upgradeing for safety and leave paperwork stateing bonding install was refused (preferrabley 2 signed copies by customer and yourself).

3) the ideal situation that socket is relocated and customer agree's to required bonding also being installed and pays up.

Personaly i'd be comfortable with option 2&3......option 1 would be the one giving some sleepness nights as giving 'Dave down the pub' the chance to have a play could likely add to the problem..........Having signed paperwork to cover your rear with option 2 (the less desireable) should satisfy any comeback (lets be honest here all this paperwork is only really an exercise in being able to legally pass the book and give the system someone to blame if it hits the fan).

 

[topquark]

All about safety, the oven will be auto ignite, if the oven is on and opening and closing of the door had caused the flame to go out, it would auto ignite, a flat battery would not do that, if the power had gone down the safety gas shut off valve will operate as it can not re-ignite.

.......

Then if the battery is flat there will be no flame, so the gas shutoff valve would operate the same way a boiler would work. Auto ignition is not a safety feature IMO. Power cut, shut off valve doesn't operate and gas continues to escape, power restored 3 mins later and boom!

 

[ayjay]

the flex looks discoloured and old- the cooker is old
there was a plug fitted to the flex at one time , someones removed it (as seen in post 48)

 

[electric will]

Surely in a power cut the gas valve would be sprung closed, and need power to open it working as a fail safe, that's how I'd design it anyway.

 

[Spark1979]

Whether the cooker Is battery fed or mains fed ignition an issue, gas valve opens by turning the buttons then the flame failure device takes over and holds the gas valve open, like the pilot light on old fires, hence if there is a power cut or gas disruption the gas valve will shut, if the device has flame failure devices fitted most new cookers do