Somebody help me please

[cliffed]

Been in this trade for nearly 50 years,with all the tech guides,the regs,videos etc,still can’t get my head around this new reg,concerning main bonding conductors.
If the metal pipes have a plastic insert @ the entry to the building,there is no need to bond.This includes all metal pipe work on that same pipework,internally,is that correct.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I started the same thread recently Cliff Understanding the new regulation regarding Main Bonding. - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/understanding-the-new-regulation-regarding-main-bonding.173665/page-2#post-1531260

I read it as in your post. If it's a plastic insert at point of entry then no need to bond. That kind of makes sense doesn't it, as it's clearly not extraneous. Just seems strange not to bond though!

 

[littlespark]

If the copper pipe wasn’t connected to anything.... just a bit of pipe... you wouldn’t bond.
Electrically, that’s the same as having plastic fittings between copper pipes... or a plastic mains incoming pipe

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

If you don't bond the water pipe because it has a plastic sleeve then what happens if a live conductor touches the pipe? Does this not make the pipework alive waiting for someone to touch it?
I know the bonding wire was there for equipotential purposes but surly it also helps with fault protection? Especially if there is no rcd protection.
I will still be bonding ALL gas and water pipes regardless as I think this is a stupid change.

 

[Rpa07]

They are indicating a completely plastic incomer so no chance of potential. If the internal pipework had a plastic pushfit section it could always be tested.
Think of all the 10mm copper we could save!

If you don't bond the water pipe because it has a plastic sleeve then what happens if a live conductor touches the pipe? Does this not make the pipework alive waiting for someone to touch it?
I know the bonding wire was there for equipotential purposes but surly it also helps with fault protection? Especially if there is no rcd protection.
I will still be bonding ALL gas and water pipes regardless as I think this is a stupid change.

 

[Midwest]

If you don't bond the water pipe because it has a plastic sleeve then what happens if a live conductor touches the pipe? Does this not make the pipework alive waiting for someone to touch it?
I know the bonding wire was there for equipotential purposes but surly it also helps with fault protection? Especially if there is no rcd protection.
I will still be bonding ALL gas and water pipes regardless as I think this is a stupid change.

I guess its the same as bonding metal tables, sinks etc in commercial kitchens, or not as it should be. If you do, then a small fault could be extended over a larger area. Goes back to is it extraneous or just a bit of metal.

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

Heard a story once of an electrician who was called out to test a central heating system where the customer said they were getting a shock off the radiators.He claimed that the radiators where dead and must be static electricity.A few days later the customer was electrocuted.Turns out that the boiler had a live to earth fault but only when the programmer was on.The pipework and the boiler were not earthed.The electrician was given a jail sentence for manslaughter.
Other than the electrician not doing his testing properly,if the gas and water pipes were bonded then the breaker-fuse would have gone when the programmer switched on thus making the pipes dead.
This is why ALL pipe work that is continuous,in my opinion,must be bonded.

 

[ipf]

If you don't bond the water pipe because it has a plastic sleeve then what happens if a live conductor touches the pipe? Does this not make the pipework alive waiting for someone to touch it?

Earthed via the boiler.....whether it's trustworthy or not, who knows...it should always be tested.

 

[Midwest]

Heard a story once of an electrician who was called out to test a central heating system where the customer said they were getting a shock off the radiators.He claimed that the radiators where dead and must be static electricity.A few days later the customer was electrocuted.Turns out that the boiler had a live to earth fault but only when the programmer was on.The pipework and the boiler were not earthed.The electrician was given a jail sentence for manslaughter.
Other than the electrician not doing his testing properly,if the gas and water pipes were bonded then the breaker-fuse would have gone when the programmer switched on thus making the pipes dead.
This is why ALL pipe work that is continuous,in my opinion,must be bonded.

If the boiler had been earthed, as it should be, then ADS would of happen, as in this case (should of been).

 

[Midwest]

I did a rewire of a student let, a while ago. The plumber followed on from us, shoving copper pipes under the floor boards, wrapping around our cables, as neither were fixed to the joists etc. Perhaps in this scenario, there's an argument to bond/earth?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Heard a story once of an electrician who was called out to test a central heating system where the customer said they were getting a shock off the radiators.He claimed that the radiators where dead and must be static electricity.A few days later the customer was electrocuted.Turns out that the boiler had a live to earth fault but only when the programmer was on.The pipework and the boiler were not earthed.The electrician was given a jail sentence for manslaughter.
Other than the electrician not doing his testing properly,if the gas and water pipes were bonded then the breaker-fuse would have gone when the programmer switched on thus making the pipes dead.
This is why ALL pipe work that is continuous,in my opinion,must be bonded.

As Midwest stated, all that was required was the boiler to be correctly earthed, I'm sorry to be blunt but this idea that pipes must be earthed is utter nonsense.

 

[Midwest]

PS, electrician jailed for manslaughter?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I did a rewire of a student let, a while ago. The plumber followed on from us, shoving copper pipes under the floor boards, wrapping around our cables, as neither were fixed to the joists etc. Perhaps in this scenario, there's an argument to bond/earth?

Where would that stop, RSJ's....metal window frames? It's back to the Cockburn school of thought.

 

[ipf]

PS, electrician jailed for manslaughter?

For not clipping cables to joists?

 

[DPG]

If you don't bond the water pipe because it has a plastic sleeve then what happens if a live conductor touches the pipe? Does this not make the pipework alive waiting for someone to touch it?
I know the bonding wire was there for equipotential purposes but surly it also helps with fault protection? Especially if there is no rcd protection.
I will still be bonding ALL gas and water pipes regardless as I think this is a stupid change.

But by bonding these pipes you are connecting them to the electrical system, which means in case of a fault they may have a voltage on them.

 

[cliffed]

If you don't bond the water pipe because it has a plastic sleeve then what happens if a live conductor touches the pipe? Does this not make the pipework alive waiting for someone to touch it?
I know the bonding wire was there for equipotential purposes but surly it also helps with fault protection? Especially if there is no rcd protection.
I will still be bonding ALL gas and water pipes regardless as I think this is a stupid change.

Exactly it seems no one knows the right or wrong on this one.Being an old schooler,I will bond whatever.

 

[ipf]

Exactly it seems no one knows the right or wrong on this one.Being an old schooler,I will bond whatever.

Bond...…..as long as it's shaken not stirred

 

[Wilko]

Been in this trade for nearly 50 years,with all the tech guides,the regs,videos etc,still can’t get my head around this new reg,concerning main bonding conductors.
If the metal pipes have a plastic insert @ the entry to the building,there is no need to bond.This includes all metal pipe work on that same pipework,internally,is that correct.

Hi - from OSG page 50 -
“Where there is a plastic incoming service and a metal installation within the premises, main bonding is recommended unless it has been confirmed it’s not introducing Earth potential.” (slightly abbreviated)
I’m probably going to continue to bond a house full of copper pipes in case a plumber changes something in the next 20 years.

 

[telectrix]

but then you are introducing an earth potential where the wasn't one before, so could be more of a danger if as person is in contact with a live part and the pipe you've just fixed at a 0V.

 

[Midwest]

Where would that stop, RSJ's....metal window frames? It's back to the Cockburn school of thought.

Calm down, was only thinking out loud.

 

[Midwest]

For not clipping cables to joists?

Interested on how you do that on a rewire, very, very small apprentice.

 

[telectrix]

Calm down, was only thinking out loud.

i know i could hear the brain creaking from here..

 

[Midwest]

i know i could hear the brain creaking from here..

I was thinking of giving you a dumb, perhaps bad spelling (grammar really), or even just a plain 'old' (see what I did there) dislike.

But its BH tomorrow, peace on Earth and good will to all men etc

Any constructive ideas on my switch cover?

 

[Wilko]

but then you are introducing an earth potential where the wasn't one before, so could be more of a danger if as person is in contact with a live part and the pipe you've just fixed at a 0V.

Agreed.
But wouldn’t this be the same risk in every house that has water bonded to MET? Or have I misunderstood?

 

[cliffed]

The new generation of sparks,will not bond now,cause that’s what they have been told to do.
Like someone said,we bonded everything in days gone by

 

[telectrix]

I was thinking of giving you a dumb, perhaps bad spelling (grammar really), or even just a plain 'old' (see what I did there) dislike.

But its BH tomorrow, peace on Earth and good will to all men etc

Any constructive ideas on my switch cover?

does that exclude women and gender neutrals, or are they covered by etc?

 

[Bob Geldoff1234]

As I see it there are two reasons to bond pipes.One is equipotential(where all the bonded parts have the same voltage flowing through them as the fault current rises to the point of the breaker tripping) or fault protection (where the pipes potentially become live but the presence of the earth wire causes the breaker to trip)

The risk of someone touching two metal surfaces while the voltage rises to a point of tripping (usually 0.4 seconds) is surely un-heard of.
So much better to bond and guarantee the breaker or rcd will trip compared to the pipes becoming live waiting for someone to touch them.
People on here have pointed out that the boiler should be earthed.
0.75mm green yellow is hardly fool proof protection in my opinion.Much better to have a 10mm bonding cable as back up if the boiler wire gets disconnected.

 

[telectrix]

So much better to bond and guarantee the breaker or rcd will trip

but the breaker will trip as long as the (earthed) exposed metal part that has the fault, regardless of any bonding.

 

[static zap]

The new generation of sparks,will not bond now,cause that’s what they have been told to do.
Like someone said,we bonded everything in days gone by

Who are we protecting ,customers , or DNO from lightening strikes getting coupled too well back into supply !
(what next fancy quenching fuses in neutrals )

 

[ElectricSeamus]

I'm currently having a complete central heating system installed along with a rewire. Pipe work will be all plastic with the exception of the radiator tails and the first metre from the boiler as per manufacturers instructions. Incoming water main is plastic and will be joined to new plastic supply to bathroom and kitchen. I don't have a lot to bond but would be interested to know what the electricians take in this will be.. I'm guessing it will be just bond the gas!

 

[Ron Winwood]

Check out the old "15th edition" bonding metalized wall tiles , metal window frames - it was at this point I nearly changed my trade to being a plumber lol

 

[Norah Nabino]

But by bonding these pipes you are connecting them to the electrical system, which means in case of a fault they may have a voltage on them.

The voltage will be the same(uniform throught),equipotential so difference in potential= no electric shock

 

[chrisdungan]

I'm a kiwi who has worked in the UK.
We drive an earth electrode at every installation and bond exposed metal back to that through the switchboard. It's VERY rare for us to come across copper pipes
My thoughts
If it's exposed metal work( including copper pipework) that has the potential now or in the future to become alive or is in close proximity to cables/outlets then earth bond it. We include stainless steel benchtops in that.
The other question we have to ask
" is it electrically UNSAFE?" yes = bond

 

[Midwest]

Bonding something that is not an exposed conductive part nor an extraneous conductive part, is liable to introduce exposure to the fault across larger area than previously was.

If a steel worktop is not extraneous & therefore not bonded, when a person touches a 'live fault' and this unbonded steel workbench, there is no path to earth, and therefore no likelihood of receiving an electrical shock. In the same circumstance, a person touching the fault, and this now bonded steel workbench, they will now receive an electrical shock.

 

[DefyG]

Its not uncommon to come across a pipework system where several plastic push on elbows/connectors, or sections of plastic pipe have been installed throughout the system where previously modified (becoming part copper part plastic)!
It would be an electricians worst nightmare to bond each section on the basis that one particular section may inadvertently become live in the event of a fault.